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Glayvin34
So my Mage is about to undergo his first initiation, and I'm going to have him get the Quickening metamagic, it seems the most useful. What exactly does that look like on the Astral? Are Quickened spells as common as cyberware? If my character is sauntering into Mr. Johnson's high-security hideout with several Quickened Increase [Attribute] spells, are the (Mage) guards going to notice and have him wait outside with the Troll?
Demerzel
Consider every time he moves through a ward the spell can get disrupted. It has to roll to beat the ward (or other variety of barrier). If he fails the spell drops, losing all that Karma spent on quickening. If he succeeds the spell doesn't drop, but the creator of the ward knows instantly someone breached his ward.
Glayvin34
But that's it? I picked up manabolt for the express purpose of bustin' through wards. That doesn't help when on an elevator that passes through a ward, but a peek on the Astral is all that's required to avoid such a Karma loss. I'm concerned about more persistent spell-disrupting threats like other characters.
Demerzel
Wards shoudl nto be uncommon. If you're going to Infinity to meet with a Johnson in a green room do you think that the owners of the establishment will appreciate you manabolting their ward so you can walk into the room? Do you think they would appreciate that their magical security firm puts up a red alert when you walk into the meet and their mage instantly knows that you either succeeded or attempted to breach his ward?

There will be cases where you are required to enter a warded area, and if that's not enough of a penalty to quickened spells then I'm not sure what is, because it's a serious one.
knasser
QUOTE (Glayvin34)
But that's it? I picked up manabolt for the express purpose of bustin' through wards. That doesn't help when on an elevator that passes through a ward, but a peek on the Astral is all that's required to avoid such a Karma loss. I'm concerned about more persistent spell-disrupting threats like other characters.


Take a look at the Quickening Materials in Street Magic, if you haven't. They allow you to spend additional karma to make the spell harder to disrupt. It's like armour for spells and will stop you having to worry about the elevator scenario.

I don't think there will be a social penalty to the quickened spells. Mainly because only a small percentage of the population will know that it's there and that small percentage will mostly be impressed if anything. I certainly don't have quickened spells as common as cyberware, but they're not unknown. Your character will probably stand out to some extent, but not in a problem way. Not everyone will immediately be able to tell that a spell is quickened, probably. So a naive mage may ask the character to dispel the magic he's currently sustaining, but they'll understand what quickening is when he tells them he can't.

I personally think it's unfair of a GM to stick a lot of wards about. Some are inevitable, but as written, without investing a couple of metamagics into Masking and Extended Masking or else alerting someone to your presence. if the GM uses them too much, then he's ruined the quickening metamagic.
Demerzel
QUOTE (knasser)
I personally think it's unfair of a GM to stick a lot of wards about. Some are inevitable, but as written, without investing a couple of metamagics into Masking and Extended Masking or else alerting someone to your presence. if the GM uses them too much, then he's ruined the quickening metamagic.

See Runner Havens entry for the club infinity. They offer warded meeting rooms, how uncommon can they be?
Nocturne
This brings up an interesting question on ward permissions. Rules state that the creator can pass through their own wards, and can allow others to do so as well. How does this happen?

Are they specified at creation time (and must they be present)?

Can the creating mage retune access after creation, and must all parties be present at the ward? Or just the creating mage, so long as they know the others' astral signatures? Or can it be done remotely?

Is it a one-time thing ("you may pass this once") or can it be set permanently?

How about another form of advanced ward, a "keyed ward", that allows a mage to imprint an astral signature on collections of items that if carried allow the bearer to pass through? I suppose they'd have to be very minor (no bonding required) focus items that could be activated and brought with to the astral to really work properly. Hrm.

I'm just thinking that exclusive magic nightclubs might have heavy warding, and it would be a serious pain to manage access to a large (but heavily initiated and likely quickened) clientelle. On the one hand you might just require the staff at the door be the same folks that erected the wards, but wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to hand out (and collect upon passing through) tokens to allow the Right People access? Heh, my Ars Magica and "Aegis of the Hearth" thinking is showing through I guess...
Glayvin34
Yeah, can a Mage open a section of the ward like a door? Then the bouncer at the Awakened clubs could ward the door and open it for the best-dressed.
odinson
also if you are walking around with a quickened spell, and an astral perceiving lone star mage sees you, he might just pull you over and ask to see permits for your restricted spells. better make sure he's got a good fake sin with good fake permits.

I always assumed that since the spell forumla were restricted then the actual spell use would be to.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (odinson)
I always assumed that since the spell forumla were restricted then the actual spell use would be to.

All spell formulae are at least restricted, so that would mean Lone Star could detain you for casting any spells or having any sustained spells on your person, which doesn't sound right to me. I think it's just the fomulae that are restricted. But if not, it gives the powers-that-be a lot more probable cause.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (knasser)
I personally think it's unfair of a GM to stick a lot of wards about. Some are inevitable, but as written, without investing a couple of metamagics into Masking and Extended Masking or else alerting someone to your presence. if the GM uses them too much, then he's ruined the quickening metamagic.

...if you had to deal with the group of PCs I GMd for awhile back, you would have wards in a lot of important places, if for anything, to keep a run from becoming an "Astral Cakewalk". Never mind the Quickened spells.
ornot
Laws against magic vary from region to region. I seem to recall hearing that any use of magic without some pretty hefty authorisations was illegal in 2070 UK.

Wards should be pretty common, but Quickening should not. Of course, it's reasonable for the GM to put other ways of getting around the wards, such as going to the wage mage that set it up and forcing him to not report when you breach his ward.

Lastly, I don't think manabolt will help you bust through a ward. The RAW says that a ward may be engaged in astral combat, or a mage may attempt to press through a ward. In SM there is a spell specifically for destroying wards however, so I could be wrong.
DigitEyez
Wards are so common that they ended up in the common costs list on page 304. Its 200 NewYen per hour to rent a warded private room.
MaxHunter
I would go for masking first.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (ornot)
Lastly, I don't think manabolt will help you bust through a ward.

Not in the material, no. But it's one of the few spells that can be cast on the Astral, because it's mana based, and able to damage a ward or barrier, because it does physical damage.
Demerzel
Yea, Manabolt would work just like Shattershield vs. a Ward, but for higher drain.
odinson
QUOTE (Glayvin34 @ May 15 2007, 04:44 PM)
QUOTE (odinson)
I always assumed that since the spell forumla were restricted then the actual spell use would be to.

All spell formulae are at least restricted, so that would mean Lone Star could detain you for casting any spells or having any sustained spells on your person, which doesn't sound right to me. I think it's just the fomulae that are restricted. But if not, it gives the powers-that-be a lot more probable cause.

yeah, but anyone with a legitimate reason to cast the spell would have gotten permits when they bought the formula. sorta like getting a gun permit before you get a gun. it's only the criminals who would have unlicenced spells.

lone star wouldn't even have to stop you. you're comlink would be broadcasting your personal information and they would be able to check if you had the required documentation. it would only be when you are running in hidden mode that you might get pulled over.
Wasabi
Save Edge for when breaking through Wards and consider Extended Masking to hide the Quickened spell.
Moon-Hawk
I think part of the problem might be that we need to change the way we think about quickening. Quickening can make a spell on a metahuman permanent, but that's not really what it's for. That's what sutaining foci are for. Quickening is for making an area spell permanent, or maybe an illusion, or something else that isn't going to move much.
But if your end-goal is to walk around with sustained spells without having to sustain them, get sutaining foci. That's what they're for. Quickening is capable of doing the same thing, but it's just not as good for it, largely because of the prevalence of wards, and because you can't turn it off.
nathanross
First a clarification, quickening is used to make a sustained spell sustain itself, not make the effects of a normally sustained spell permanent, though Tattoo quickening can make it almost so.

As Moon-hawk mentioned, quickening should not replace a sustaining focus. Quickening the Increase [Attribute] spells at a fraction of the karma cost to increase them naturally should not be without a drawback, and that drawback is that they are quite obvious (at least astrally).

An easy way to fix this is to avoid wards. There is only one way to truly pass through a ward unnoticed, and that is with flexible signature and astral tracking. Book explains how so I wont go into it, but by faking the signature of the creator, you can trick the ward. Other things you should probably take before quickening are the Masking and Extended Masking though, as they can hide your spell.

My current mystic adept wants some tattoo goodness, but I may just have to sit out of the meet or avoid wards until we resort to plan B to prevent his spell from giving away the group.

A question to ask is whether Extended masking hide the spell from a ward or do you still have to make the test? And if you still make the test, does the ward's creator know?
Kyoto Kid
...the one (and only) advantage to quickening over a sustaining focus is no risk of focus addiction.
odinson
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...the one (and only) advantage to quickening over a sustaining focus is no risk of focus addiction.

It's also a lot harder to dispel a quickened spell than a sustained one.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (nathanross)
A question to ask is whether Extended masking hide the spell from a ward or do you still have to make the test? And if you still make the test, does the ward's creator know?

That's a tough one. Masking, Extended Masking and Flexible Signature are all designed to be used versus Assesing tests, and wards don't have to assense to know all about your signature(s).

There would have to be a houserule there.

With Extended Masking, only wards with a force greater than your Initiation grade can affect masked items? That or Extended Masking has no affect on wards.

With Flexible Signature, if you changed your astral signature to look like that of the ward's creator, the ward would only signal the creator if its force exceed your initiation grade.

Does that sound right to anyone?
knasser

A magician cannot attempt to "sneak" through a ward without Masking.

QUOTE (SM @ pg.124)

Only magicians  with  the  Masking  metamagic  tech-
nique  (p.  190,  SR4)  or  spirits  with  the  Aura  Masking
power (p. 98) may attempt to synchronize their aura with
a ward in such a way.


So that clears that one up. There's no need for assensing tests as the the rules for how to handle the test are covered on the same page.

The intent of the Extended Masking metamagic is clearly to allow foci, spells, etc to be included in the effect of simple Masking.

QUOTE (SM @ pg.61)

  This technique allows the initiate to extend her Masking
metamagic to encompass her foci and any spells she may have quickened, anchored, or may be sustaining.


It doesn't explicitly refer to wards but does say that tests are handled in the normal way, so we can make a very small step of logic.

Masking and Extended Masking are both very useful, but that's at the cost of two metamagic slots.

A cheaper method of spying is the Mana Window spell that lets you use Clairvoyance through a ward. The restores some of the ability to scout that wards block and is available to everyone.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (knasser)
So that clears that one up. There's no need for assensing tests as the the rules for how to handle the test are covered on the same page.

That's an interesting Street Magic addition, there's no allowance for sneaking through a ward in the main book. Good to know.
Demerzel
QUOTE (knasser)
A magician cannot attempt to "sneak" through a ward without Masking.

QUOTE (SM @ pg.124)

Only magicians  with  the  Masking  metamagic  tech-
nique  (p.  190,  SR4)  or  spirits  with  the  Aura  Masking
power (p. 98) may attempt to synchronize their aura with
a ward in such a way.


So that clears that one up. There's no need for assensing tests as the the rules for how to handle the test are covered on the same page.

There's no need for assensing test if the Ward's Creator is standing right there nicely modeling his Aura for you to copy. Odds are you'll have to track down the creator in some way. If you plan on using the astral link between creator and ward that will require assensing tests.
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