In the next mission I am going to run, I am going to have a bunch of UCAS soldiers (~200), be called in to enforce a quarantine on a section of Denver, and I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas as how to stat them out. I figured I would need a bunch of grunts, maybe some lieutenants (not very sure about military rank structure), some army mages (to ensure the quarantine is enforced astrally as well), some riggers for drones to patrol the streets in the 2 block wide No Mans Land surrounding the quarantine, as well as to enforce the communication black-out), and maybe a few snipers. I'm just not to sure how high to stat them out, or what type of metahuman mix to use, or how much cyber to give them.

Any Ideas?

I'd say put up to about two Essence worth of cyber in the grunts at most, on account of the fact that while they are indeed professional ass-kickers, most of them are going to want to be able to maintain personal relationships and get by in the world if they quit the army.

As for army mages, you'll want types that can pull overwatch and have significant astral abilities. Fireballs are nice, but most the things a mage is going to want to fireball can be taken out by the cheaper and more economical bullets.

As for snipers, those guys are often your very serious, very hard-core soldiers for life. I'd say pump them so full of cyber that their hearts don't beat, but tick.

Just my two cents.

just don't stat them out beyond what you absolutely need.

i would probably just simplify things a lot, personally... probably make 2 types of soldiers (regular with ares alpha, heavy with either LMG or HMG, since the MMG is a horrible waste of money and isn't much better than regular), and simplify the mages (something like "all troops visible from point A get 4 counterspelling dice") and otherwise have them sustaining a spell or two elsewhere, not actively participating in battles. don't worry about specific stats, just give dicepools (you don't need to give them agi 3 automatics 3 smartgun +2 assault rifles specialisation +2... just say a dicepool of as much as you feel is right and be done with it)

probably have a decent number of riggers around, too, since drones/vehicles are much cheaper as super soldiers than actual supersoldiers. this doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would require special forces to be around, and i don't see why you'd need actual snipers per se, just concealed regular soldiers using take aim actions should be plenty.

This really reall goes on what you are wanting your players to face and/or how serious thei issue is.


Odds are this would be 'grunts':

For these I would take a simple 3 across the board. For attributes and relevant skills:

For simplicity: Firearms-3 , Dodge-3, Athletics -3, Percepton-3, close combat - 3



Against individual's the players are likely going to mop them over.

The one caveat is these should always be acting in a squad. And generally should always be maximizing things to their advantage: (cover, surprise, etc).

While a mage (especially) player can likely take out a squad (at the start) with a well placed manaball / stunball. Once they know they are 'hot' and facing magic support, even this should get harder.

They should be well spaced, well covered (so no LOS to multiples), etc.


Also note these are trained combatants, not 'security' (even if MPs).

The shadowrunners if careful very likely can 'sneak' by, but heavy handed threats is exactly what they guys do know how to handle (even if out gunned).

If mages are preseent, expect smoke grenades / flash bangs to be going off. Expect covering fire and even defensive fields of fire: (claymore / mines / grenades) set so something is in the 'target area' blow it.

If the players move fast, and either sneaky, or hard and very fast they can do very well.

If the players get pinned down for even a moment, expect a very painful response as 'numbers' become far more important then skill.


Now all the above could change drastically if something very important has happened. If the issue is important enough it is not the 'guard that has been stationed, but Delta / Seal Team 6 / a counter-terrorist specific force.

Then expected teams of 'shadow run' grade players to be deployed. UCAS to me is lkely to be 'cyber' as magic. Very likely each squad would have 'magic' support: either a magician in team, or worse case a spirit on guard duty.

Here it would be far closer to your standard HRT shadowrunners are familiar with.

IMO you are talking about something in the level of a company; that is a captain with maybe five platoons, each platoon composed of three to five squads of eight people. {8 times 5 = 40, 40 times 5 = 200 }

I would say that you keep most soldiers as grunts without any cyber or magic, maybe smart goggles or laser sights and/or low light vision gear.

Then in a company there should be at least two mages, maybe three or four, there would be only one competent mage and one or two awakened soldiers with 2-4 magic.

Maybe you could stat one "lieutenant" for each platoon, that is an officer and her rank would actually be lieutenant IIRC. Those should have slightly better stats and may sport some cyber. maybe smartlinks and plastic bone lacing, perhaps wired I.

Then it would be reasonable to have a special sniper squad and another couple in charge of electronic warfare and drones.

All in all: stats for 1 commander (captain) with nice stats and skills
Stats for 1 mage, magic 5 or 6, initiate grade 1 or 2, one or two foci
Stats for lieutenants with some cyber (5 guys with same stats)
Stats for grunts, including sniper variant and rigger

Of course this depends on the power level of the group you are Gming. Anyway I do not find it realistical that countries field ARMIES of cybered munchkins.

I hope my contribution is of useful enough.

BTW, the run sounds interesting...

Cheers,

Max

How about this? :



One grunt in each squad would carry a machinegun or grenade launcher.

Snipers would add infiltration 3 and a sniper rifles specialization, maybe +2 intuition and +1 willpower

Lieutenants with pistol and/or assault rifle specialization, +2 intuition, +1 logic, +1 charisma and leadership 2 plus: etiquette 1 (military +2) and some cyber

For an extremely good RL point of view, seek the book with the title "White Feather", Carlos Hathcock story.

It is about a Viet Nam Era sniper, a Marine, he does not have the most kills but some of the more outstanding ones.

Scene from the movie "Sniper" with Tom Beringer, where he shoots the enemy sniper thru the telescopic sight, came from Hathcock's story. He actually did that.

It will give a good example to base your snipers on, player characters will be very much afraid.

Snipers ARE scary! IRL and in game. The only good measure against an enemy sniper is another sniper.

Just think: 7p -3 shots that you can't use reaction to dodge because you don't know they are there. And usually the guy behind the scope knows how to use his weapon, so expect called shots and at least 10 dice rolled. That's scary enough for me.

Cheers,

Max

... and I am starting to like largemike's idea of the ticking snipers.

Cheers,

Max

why does everyone give officers better combat gear and skills? for the most part, officers who are around to be in charge are not better equipped or better trained for combat. i mean, officers who just have the rank as part of their assignment (like airforce pilots, special forces, etc) would have better training and gear, but someone who is an officer for the purpose of commanding a platoon isn't going to get wired reflexes. they're going to get a cerebral booster, a sleep regulator, and an implanted commlink!

I'd agree with Jaid to some extent. Officers in the army would probably have better cyber, but not necessarily better stats. I remember when I was in college, I didn't get the impression the ROTC attracted the best and brightest. Then my time in the military convinced me they didn't. Especially when you consider that in SR time the corporate security will be paying more and getting the more high quality personnel. I would think national militaries would be a great starting point for people getting into security. Corporate security types would recruit heavily form prior military types. I would think the "senior" members of the military would be those who couldn't get better jobs in the corporate sector. However, the military does take it's officer corps seriously so expect them to be cybered. Even IRL the military likes to shower the officers with extra training; think army Airborne training and officers. Although I think the military would be able to give cyberware as signing or reenlistment bonuses. When you consider using the military as antagonists, use plenty of extra manpower and good equipment such as armor and weapons. And almost always use excessive force to the point of overkill. They would also act as a team because of significant training for things they've trained and planned for, but the military doesn't always do things well that they haven't planned for. So if the runners have a original or unorthodox tactic, the military might not react the most efficiently. Just my two cents based on my experiences.

Take a look at the Standby Squads cheat sheet on my Shadowrun Resources page. Does anything there look useful?

Also, why doesn't anyone think the military teach firstaid. Whenever people post stats for soldiers on this website no one ever includes firstaid.

Also make sure the grunt's gear is all loaded up with RFID stealth tags and maybe even cybernetic or smartlink safeties. You could even have them set up with slag bombs that melt those suckers down if they leave a specific distance from the signal repeater, the signal is disrupted/jammed or even just explode when the safety doesn't match. I find it unlikely that the military wouldn't try to track all that mil-spec gear floating around. Well, except for the stuff they want out there.

[Oh yeah, just to clarify. This is just to limit PCs from upgrading to good gear like the XM-30, full body armor and nice commlinks right out of the box without any repercussions. I would think the military would have procedures to limit grunts from blowing themselves up by accident, hopefully.]

The current impression I got from the BBB or was it runners haven? Was Corp security was moving towards military grade. Mercenaries get paid more then regular troops not security guards.

I would say a sleep regulator would be standard as its rather cheep only 10,000 And as it cuts your sleeping to 4 hours. Hell its a wet dream to military commanders a boost in long term combat situations.

Corps tend to hold back the heavy weapons as they have a public image to maintain. Which is why corp security doesn't all use Aries Alpha's and other assault rifles as standard. Military however would uses Aries Alpha's, assault rifles and heavy weapons as standard. An Ingrim White Knight to rip holes into them. Remember its uncompensated recoil that is doubled not all recoil. So it can fire in a long burst at no penalty or lay down suppressive fire for several combat turns while the troops flank area where the PC's are hiding.

Going up against the military shouldn't be like facing down the LoneStar.

This is a common mistake I see people make in SR with cyberware and grunts.
It may cost 32,000 Nuyen to have Rating 2 wired reflex's installed for your street samurai.
Now I've seen many people talk err type as if it costs the corp the same amount to have it installed in their security.
Well it doesn't and if you think it does. Your stupid.
The cost to manufacture a product tends to be cheaper then the product its self.
(the X-Box was one such an exception). So obviously they have to make money off these products.

That being said. When you own the facilities to have ware manufactured and installed its much cheaper to equip your security.

I'd say most every peace of equipment would be tagged.

But a good way to keep them from looting the corpses for everything. Hearing about a few dozen more troops and a butt load of Lonestar heading into the area. Just mention something that looks like a big citymaster equipped with Twin PAC cannons heading into the area. If that doesn't make them drop the stuff and run. They deserve to die.

Or, you know, you could just take some Grunts from the Friends & Foes Chapter and adjust some things.

But that would be too easy, wouldn't it?

Well... the level of granularity people like differs a lot. And don't you by chance remember SR3 now do you? I find making stats in sr4 a breeze, it's worth the little effort it takes to go a little "deeper". But that's playing styles and it's perfectly ok to say, "all dice pools at six and assault rifles", it only depends on what you and your people like best. Also, it depends on the time you want to invest in making stats vs. the actual "need" of having them.

BTW Rotbart, I do not seem to have any rules on indirect fire handy, maybe you would like to share your approach...

@jaid and 6thdragon: you are probably right, First aid 1 at least is something they would know.

I also have a tendency towards better stats for officers because of my warhammer background. Also bear in mind that the better stats I suggested were more +1 charisma, +2 intuition and +1 logic plus leadership skill, those are mental stats, and it could reflect better education. I also agree that an implanted commlink would be a much suitable cyberware upgrade.

In my country most troopers (not the special forces) have only some highschool levels whereas officers have the equivalent of a university degree.

Cheers,

Max

For Commlink, milspec equipment goes beyond the usual Rating 6. They probably have level 8 or 9 encryption and firewall.

Basic UCAS Grunts.
Cyberware and bioware: Not worth the expense on grunts…seriously, I hardly think that they would implant stuff when they can just buy it cheaply instead of paying hospital stay and suchlike – not to mention that they can just pass on gear to someone else when the other guy quits, retires, dies or becomes disabled. Soldiers go by numbers, not cybered individuals.

Helmet with Goggles with the following Mods:
Low-Light. Thermo, Image Link, Flarecomp, Smartlink
A Camouflage Suit
Fichetti Security 600 (or equivalent)
Ares Alpha (or equivalent)
A pair of fragmentation grenades
A pair of smoke grenades
2-4 Clips of regular ammunition for each weapon

One-two in eight or ten people would perhaps have a Sniper Rifle, heavy weapon (LMG) or grenade launcher. I could also imagine that the squad leader or comm officer would use one-two small drones as scouts with a pre-programmed flight pattern and orders and running silent (no signal)

For stats I would also say 3 across the board and basic communication gear in their helmet. Since electronics are cheap I would imagine that Commlinks would not be filled with IC and crap but simply be Rating 6 Communications gear which is encrypted.

I wouldn't give officers better physical attributes, necessarily. In fact, the higher up the chain they go, the lower they might be. But I could very likely give officers some higher skills in some areas to represent their long experience. That's for ones that worked their way up.

On the whole, I would probably use Lone Star attributes and maybe an extra point of skill in some areas, but I would give them some seriously good boosts in moral and ogranisation. For moral, the soldiers would likely have gone through the best conditioning that 2070 tech can offer. For the officers, they are likely supported by very sophisticated AR computer systems complete with agent programs that can help co-ordinate down to a very fine level at a very fast speed.

Those who are desparate enough to go into the 2070 military may well not be that talented given some of the more lucrative and less psychologically damaging work out there (I see a lot of advanced conditioning going on in the 2070 army). They could well be harvested from barrens areas and other dirt poor kids. But I would expect them to be deployed to devastating effect. Officers will be more like computer war game players than anything else, I should think. And good ones, too.

EDIT: I'd give most soldiers 2s in mental attributes. 3 is not average in Shadowrun. There is more room at the top than there is at the bottom. Human average in Shadowrun is 2.

My take on it. These are guards for the Chicago Containment Zone. Therefore, they're probably gonna be a little more experienced, a little better armed, and have a lot more magical security than a normal unit. I'd say fire teams of 4 soldiers, with three soldiers with alphas and one with a LMG or MGL-12. Four fire teams to a platoon, with three of the fire teams standard rifle teams as above, and one a heavy weapons team, two with HMG or MMG and the other two with alphas and anti-vehicular loaded strikers. All fire teams have integrated comms, with the Platoon Commander as the rigger with drones, mainly for observation and targetting. Four platoons to the company, with one platoon designated heavy weaps that will switch out the rifle teams with Lynxs and Dobermans, loaded with PACs and more anti-vehicular rockets in mounted quad launchers. Their heavy weaps fire team will probably consist of mortars/vectored thrust drones armed with PACs/HMGs/Cluster bombs. Finally, company commander is in control of more observation drones, and has probably two mages, with summoned watchers capable of summoning more backup from a rear base post haste. Also, about 4 snipers for the whole company, as one sniper can cover A LOT of area, especially when they're sitting on a wall and they cleared out a dead zone in front of it. Paired in teams, spaced out along the wall. Finally, about one-two medics per platoon, armed with a heavy pistol and maybe with the doc drone. Any soldier can call in arty or mortar strikes on any dug in positions.

I'd give everyone some sort of reaction enhancements, maybe wired reflexes 1 or combat drugs, as they're really not that expensive compared to the cost of training a new soldier, and they make them MUCH more effective. For the rest I'd give them gear for things like vision mods/smartlinks, etc. I'd also give everyone heavy security armor.

That may be too lethal for your players, but realistically, thats how an infantry company is generally organized, and it's how I see the most effective guard force being composed of. I'd give your basic soldiers specializations in their main weapons, and fours-fives in their physical stats, with 2-4 mental stats, with 4s in the willpower for most and 2s in logic for most enlisted, as well as 3-4 intuition. Bump up officer logic scores, remove weapon specializations, and give them rigging ability. Anyway, probably would kill you players out of hand, but they're there to stop giant magic insects, so they would be paranoid and loaded for bear.

One thing to keep in mind: You will be outgunned.

An infantry squad ranges from 6-10 men, depending, and there are 4-5 squads in a platoon. Each squad member will have an assault rifle, probably the Ares Alpha, body armor (I would guess that the prevelance of armor jackets that the military upgrades to 'light sec' as a minimum standard for combat operations) and two special weapons. Now days it's a Grenade launcher and a light machine gun, but I expect with so many assualt rifles having GL's built in as standard that it's two LMG's. Possibly an LMG and an AC for anti-armor work.

The company could very well have additional HMG's or mortar teams attached to it, we're just talking about one squad at the moment. It's possible one or more squad members are sniper trained, even if not serving on a sniper team, cross training and all that. Depending on the level of threat expected, each soldier will have hand grenades as well. They probably will not run out of ammunition. Currently a soldier is expected to carry seven reloads as standard, many carry extra.

Given the demographics of the modern military and the demographics of Shadowrun, expect to see a large number of orcs. 30-40% of your soldiers possibly.

I'd give soldiers, particularly infantrymen, at LEAST 3's for physical stats, even if 2 is supposedly 'average'. Focus on Body if you want to pump them up, infantrymen do 20 mile road marches occasionaly, your average man on the street would die (figuratively). 12 miler's are done monthly or even weekly. That's not average, sad to say. Officers often have better education, but no one has mentioned the high incident of professional NCO's, the Squad leaders and Platoon Sergeants. These are often your career soldiers with higher skills and training.

Lastly, I expect every squad will have at least one, if not more, anti-vehicle weapon (in addition to the possible Assault Cannon), a disposable launcher typically. Doesn't have to be the best in the book, soldiers often carry sub-par equipment, but it should be enough to crack light armor vehicles, which is the point.


And we haven't even discussed the combined arms yet. That's just an infantry company. Typically I believe the snipers fall into a special squad. And they work in two man teams, on sniper one spotter. The spotter may or may not have a 'sniper rifle', but he will be armed (assault rifle).

The big differance between Soldiers and your typical shadowrunner opposition is mostly the way they fight.

Most GMs have a tendency to think "harder=more stats, better equipment". The thing about the army is not that each soldier is a fantastic opponent. It's that they won't hesitate to kill you (unlike cops), and will generally prefer to pin you down with massive if innacurate fire, and then call in artillery/air strikes to blow you to pieces. The Army has ressources to spare. They WILL fire 8 rockets at you from an attack helicopter if that's what it takes, whereas other opposition has to be a bit more cost-conscious.

The Army kills you. Price is no concern.

ok, no one in my game in Davis open the following.

Actually, now that I think about it, a replacement heart that doesn't 'beat' (doesn't change in size enough to affect your point of aim) would be extremely helpful in the right niche. On the other hand, it would only be helpful for sniper types, and that's it.

Anyways, food for thought.

i'd like to offer an alternative view on first-world militaries in SR. a lot of people here are making the assumption that high-end militaries in the future will be a lot like high-end militaries today--large numbers of moderately-skilled, well-organized grunts. i don't think that will be the case, though, for the simple reason that there are so many more first-world militaries out there, almost all of them drawing on a smaller population than modern militaries (the joy of Balkanization). look at North America--there are no less than five, maybe more, modern, well-equipped national militaries. and only two of those militaries view each other as even nominal allies. that's not even counting megacorporate military forces! every nation on the continent views itself as being under constant threat of invasion by at least two other first-world militaries.

these militaries are going to be dangerous. none of them has the population base to go for numbers, so they're going to go for training and equipment. soldiers are not going to get into the military for college money, they're going to get in as career shooters, and they're going to be treated as such so that they're less likely to get out and join some corporate or mercenary force. first-world militaries don't have grunts, they have highly-motivated operators. basically, the mental picture you should have when you're statting out 'grunts' is special forces, not regular infantry. and not just special forces, special forces backed up by a huge array of force multipliers--cybernetic communication for seamless teamwork, instant access to airstrikes, drone backup, spirit reinforcements, and so on.

statwise, i'd put them together like a regular starting character, because starting characters in SR (even in 4th) are startlingly competent. give them 2-3 points of essence, maybe more. officers aren't going to have more or better cyberware or skills, but they should generally be the equal of at least a newbie soldier, plus organizational/leadership skills and gear.

that's my opinion, anyway.

I'd probably have a rapid reaction team of 4 IFVs with pretty heavy armor (as in it takes and anti-armor rocket to have a chance) supporting a company sized force. IT might be all IFVs. All warded pretty heavily.

You'd also run a physical barrier (like this rapid concertina wire system http://www.soacorp.com/pdf/onepage/rapid_wire.pdf), combined with a portable interlocking barrier (like the t-shaped steel ones here T barrier image, and covered with tripod mounted automatic weapons.

The troops would have the typical aries Alpha, 300 rounds of spare ammo plus extra grenades, with each 8-10 man squad with a pair of LMGs, and a supply of anti-armor rockets handy. Platoons would have HMGs, with a few heavy AT systems (like bang, you're dead heavy) at company level. With that size force you'd probably have 2-4 81-120mm mortars - like 20P(f) - if the PCs stick around long enough to get those into the fight.

The key would be that they probably know what they are doing, understand that people can sneak around and have deployed sensors and mini drones to deal with cleverness. Little surveillance radars linked to visible/IR cameras do a fine job of spotting invisible characters at long range, and ultrasonics do good up close. They probably deploy into strongpoints that overwatch each other and have contact to HQ.

Use a team of mages based elsewhere to overwatch with several spirits each, with a huge surge of them if anything exciting happens. Probably have a spirit patrolling each strongpoint, with his going away bringing more people & spirits to investigate. Also throw a ward around each building.

Earth Elementals or better yet Guardian Spirits in full body armor. Also known as the "armored golems" option.

One problem that I am having is trying to figure out how they would go about trying to astrally barricade the area, other than getting a whole shit load of mages to create a giant ward.

I have been thinking that they had 4 army mage specialists, 3 level 1 initiates and 1 level 3 initiate officer, called in to handle the astral blockade, and have been using a combination of wards, watcher spirits (give them 4 charisma each, so 4 watcher spirits each), and patrolling astrally themselves. Considering the size of the area, I imagine that even given these circumstances, there would still be sizeable gaps in the blockade.

Also, the blocade had only been called in about about a day before the run was started, meaning that the blockade is not yet complete (one of the things making this run possible, they aren't trying to cross a well fortified border, more a makeshift one.)

yeah, i basically meant Rangers, but i wasn't sure how many people would know the difference. given the amount of armed conflict that takes place in SR, though, i don't think you'd necessarily need to see 30 in order to be a very experienced combat vet.

as for support MOSs, honestly, i don't see smart armies keeping nearly as many of them around. firstly because a lot of what they do can be automated, secondarily because a lot of what they do can be contracted out to third parties. the US military maintains a huge support system because it's expected to be a global force. the UCAS, though, doesn't care if all the two-bit punks in central Africa decide to start slaughtering each other. neither does the CAS or any of the NANs. they care about keeping each other in check, which means that the furthest they'll ever need to travel is across the continent. their support system doesn't need to be nearly as comprehensive.