Full Version: Jammer Overlap: Do they stack?
Does the Interference spell and jammers all stack? If I take 4 area jammers that are rating 4 will they shut off a signal rating of 6 with rating 6 ECCM?
I think a strict interpretation of the rules would conclude that they do not stack. Each description says that a device's signal is cut off if the jammer's Rating is higher than the device's Signal. No cumulative or diminishing effect is implied, which make sense to me, since Signal rating is exponential, anyway (e.g. 3 + 3 < 6).
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Aaron, interference is a contest between each jammer and the signal. Since they are all jamming the same frequencies, it just depends on signal strength and reception.
Logical. How in the world can ECCM ever be defeated then except in cybercombat?
| QUOTE (Wasabi) |
| Logical. How in the world can ECCM ever be defeated then except in cybercombat? |
with a law rocket usually.
my personal suggestion is to include the rule that was probably supposed to be in there in the first place:
roll logic + electronic warfare. net hits add to rating of your jammer. there is text that indicates some sort of test (though possibly an opposed test) is supposed to happen. the defender(s) could roll electronic warfare + ECCM to reduce your net hits as well, i suppose.
roll logic + electronic warfare. net hits add to rating of your jammer. there is text that indicates some sort of test (though possibly an opposed test) is supposed to happen. the defender(s) could roll electronic warfare + ECCM to reduce your net hits as well, i suppose.
I disagree. Jamming is about messing around with your signal by adding random noise to the frequencies being used, like kids kicking on the side of a pool across which you were gently sending waves; it's about power, not finesse. ECCM is about taking the data received (and sent) and filtering out the noise to get a clear signal; that's finesse (well, math), not power.
Incidentally, if your gentle waves are two meters from crest to trough, those kids aren't going to be able to stop you effectively. That's what happens when the Signal is greater than the jammer's Rating.
Incidentally, if your gentle waves are two meters from crest to trough, those kids aren't going to be able to stop you effectively. That's what happens when the Signal is greater than the jammer's Rating.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| my personal suggestion is to include the rule that was probably supposed to be in there in the first place: roll logic + electronic warfare. net hits add to rating of your jammer. there is text that indicates some sort of test (though possibly an opposed test) is supposed to happen. the defender(s) could roll electronic warfare + ECCM to reduce your net hits as well, i suppose. |
I agree with your rolls, the operator of the jammer can "fine tune" his signal to have the greatest effect upon the signal(s) he wished to jam. Same goes the one being jammed, using ECCM he can "Adjust" his end to minimize the effects of the jamming signal.
In 4th ed, the only jammer available are basically types that "blind" the opposite sides receivers. IIRC you have "barrage" and "Spot" jammers.
In 3rd ed you had greater types of jammers effects being simulated.
Basically three are three basic types of jammers, ones that prevent information from getting thru, ones that increase or decrease the information, and ones that create new information.
Make the TM cry by shooting him.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| I agree with your rolls, the operator of the jammer can "fine tune" his signal to have the greatest effect upon the signal(s) he wished to jam. |
Eh ... sort of. You could send out a reversed wave of the target, basically canceling the target's signal, with fine-tuning. But then you'd start to have weird geometry problems and speed-of-light propagation issues.
If you're jamming the signal you're detecting, then only the area behind the jammer with respect to the target would experience a boost in jamming effectiveness, assuming that you're processing and canceling the signal fast enough. The target's signals are still propagating away from the target in all directions at the speed of light, so your fine-tuned signals are actually out of phase with (behind) the signals they're supposed to be canceling and not effective, and then it's back to just plain old power.
If somehow you knew which signals the target was going to send at the exact same time they were generated, you could cancel them the same way, but only in an area between you and the target.
If your jammer is right next to the target (like within a few centimeters or so), that would solve the latency problem and a lot of the phase-shift problems associated with it, but at that point you might as well just clock him with your shiny metal jammer.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| Basically three are three basic types of jammers, ones that prevent information from getting thru, ones that increase or decrease the information, and ones that create new information. |
So one could before jamming. Scan the area for nodes. Identify the nodes with the most powerful transmitters, or most traffic. compare nodes to "Friendlies". Use Electronic Warfare + Logic to sent "Junk" to unfriendly node while spoofing various other nodes recognized in area, expecting one or more of them to be accepted by the targets COM-Link. After receiving comformation from target node send that COM-Spoof more frequently.
Can I do it by integrating a Signal Scanner to the Jammer? Anything the Scanner detects after jamming starts could become a new target.
| QUOTE (Wasabi) |
| Logical. How in the world can ECCM ever be defeated then except in cybercombat? |
ECCCM, duh.
One note, in todays world the wifi signals are digital, in 2070 they will much more than digital.
Using analog signal propagation methods as examples of what might or might not get thru is exercise in mental self satisfaction.
It has been a long time since Marconi type radio transmissions and jamming of such.
As communication technology progresses, what from earlier communication technologies is/was ECM/ECCM is routinely installed as a "needed" feature. Things like data encryption bits in the first part of the digital signal string, etc.
Why you ask, well some many things interfere with signals today, microwave ovens with issues, electrical switching devices, personal radios, cellular phones, television broadcasts, mobile radios, sun spots, and the list goes on.
So current day wireless communications manufacturers have incorporated ECM techniques/devices of previous levels of technology, to insure that their devices signals get thru the day to day signal environment.
One very important thing about electronic warfare, it is not the signal strength that really matters, but how the receiver "perceives" the incoming jamming signal.
Barrage type of jamming with out some kind of EW controls in todays world, is not as effective as most would believe.
Using analog signal propagation methods as examples of what might or might not get thru is exercise in mental self satisfaction.
It has been a long time since Marconi type radio transmissions and jamming of such.
As communication technology progresses, what from earlier communication technologies is/was ECM/ECCM is routinely installed as a "needed" feature. Things like data encryption bits in the first part of the digital signal string, etc.
Why you ask, well some many things interfere with signals today, microwave ovens with issues, electrical switching devices, personal radios, cellular phones, television broadcasts, mobile radios, sun spots, and the list goes on.
So current day wireless communications manufacturers have incorporated ECM techniques/devices of previous levels of technology, to insure that their devices signals get thru the day to day signal environment.
One very important thing about electronic warfare, it is not the signal strength that really matters, but how the receiver "perceives" the incoming jamming signal.
Barrage type of jamming with out some kind of EW controls in todays world, is not as effective as most would believe.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| One note, in todays world the wifi signals are digital, in 2070 they will much more than digital. Using analog signal propagation methods as examples of what might or might not get thru is exercise in mental self satisfaction. [ ... ] Barrage type of jamming with out some kind of EW controls in todays world, is not as effective as most would believe. |
So stop being a tease and tell us how it would work.
Seriously, I'm interested. My focus of study only peripherally included signals and EW.
So jamming a digital signal with pure power is akin to trying to disrupt a Stereo FM signal with an AM transmitter? To be successful you have to inject more noise into the received signal than the ECM can compensate for?
Not sure if I or the writers fully understand how jamming works, or that it got oversimplified for the rules.
Seeing as the signal rating gets reduced by 1 for every 5 meters, 20 meters for directional. (Making jammers extremely short ranged. Reminding me of the old Marconi type or just having all friendly units turn their radar dishes towards the enemy and crank them up to max.) That any Device with a Signal+ECCM is lower than that of the jammer is completely blocked. This leaves most Hackers and Riggers virtually unaffected, where the rest of the team's transmissions and PANs are disabled.
Not sure if I or the writers fully understand how jamming works, or that it got oversimplified for the rules.
Seeing as the signal rating gets reduced by 1 for every 5 meters, 20 meters for directional. (Making jammers extremely short ranged. Reminding me of the old Marconi type or just having all friendly units turn their radar dishes towards the enemy and crank them up to max.) That any Device with a Signal+ECCM is lower than that of the jammer is completely blocked. This leaves most Hackers and Riggers virtually unaffected, where the rest of the team's transmissions and PANs are disabled.
| QUOTE (Demon_Bob) |
| So jamming a digital signal with pure power is akin to trying to disrupt a Stereo FM signal with an AM transmitter? To be successful you have to inject more noise into the received signal than the ECM can compensate for? Not sure if I or the writers fully understand how jamming works, or that it got oversimplified for the rules. Seeing as the signal rating gets reduced by 1 for every 5 meters, 20 meters for directional. (Making jammers extremely short ranged. Reminding me of the old Marconi type or just having all friendly units turn their radar dishes towards the enemy and crank them up to max.) That any Device with a Signal+ECCM is lower than that of the jammer is completely blocked. This leaves most Hackers and Riggers virtually unaffected, where the rest of the team's transmissions and PANs are disabled. |
Yes that is pretty much accurate in your description of AM and FM.
My background is former USN involved EW/ECM of that I talk little of.
But in my current job, I have to "locate" things interfering with the electronic device(medical equipment), like my medical telemetry system is digital, frequency hopping etc.
I was having a issue regarding a telemetry transmitter not getting its signal back to the central monitoring, but was very intermittent issue. Cause of the interference a microwave oven used in the staff lounge, but only if the microwave was at a long cook time. It was not a design issue with the microwave but a electronic fault that had occurred with the microwave oven. So this only occurred around staff meal times, that was what finally clued us in on what might be causing the signal loss. But since the staff did not have a fixed time for meals, patient demands kept such times flexible.
This is in an environment, that is no where near as wireless as Shadowrun of 2070. For common everyday wireless devices to function at the level in Shadowrun, due to the techniques and devices installed in them to function, by todays stands they would be ultra Top Secret devices due the extensive use of SOTA ECM.
As for the writers understanding how jamming works...it is a good system just needs some minor tweaks, in my mind. A system that accurately scaled a EW/ECCM would not be playable by most players. Rigger 3 came close as the most realistic one for Shadowrun.
Ok. Thanks, WearzManySkins.
The concept of jamming a frequency hopping, encrypted, wireless signal , without a broadband jamming signal sending out tons of junk packages just makes my head hurt.
The concept of jamming a frequency hopping, encrypted, wireless signal , without a broadband jamming signal sending out tons of junk packages just makes my head hurt.
To me the Magic in Shadowrun is not that magic is being used, but the Wireless Environment that is there.
I work in relatively controlled environment, and the use of wireless is insane.
Example 1
The ventilator quite working due a family member laid there cell phone on top of the vent. Even though there many signs that said "NO Cellphones Allowed."
Example 2
Department A wants a new wireless system for their area, but they can not due another department B has a wireless network that is using the frequency and bandwidth for their needs/uses. But department A was not aware of department B's network until department A's network was installed. Neither manufacturer's system would work together at all. Both department's wireless networks were "unregistered" with the facility IT department.
This happens in what I call a controlled environment, the Wireless streets of Shadowrun, I would call uncontrolled environment.
Countless wireless systems overlapping each other, some not working with others. Hackers/users installing their own wireless scr*w those other networks type of attitudes.
So the hardware for the wireless networks in Shadowrun are MAGIC, very robust, adaptable, hardened, things that I can not imagine by todays standards. Kinda of a wireless survival of the fittest. If you make wireless hardware that can not deal with the changing environment it does not get sold. Those companies hardware that does sells, and other companies copy the hardware to sell and improve it if they can.
There is Mana based Magic then there is the Tech based Magic.
I work in relatively controlled environment, and the use of wireless is insane.
Example 1
The ventilator quite working due a family member laid there cell phone on top of the vent. Even though there many signs that said "NO Cellphones Allowed."
Example 2
Department A wants a new wireless system for their area, but they can not due another department B has a wireless network that is using the frequency and bandwidth for their needs/uses. But department A was not aware of department B's network until department A's network was installed. Neither manufacturer's system would work together at all. Both department's wireless networks were "unregistered" with the facility IT department.
This happens in what I call a controlled environment, the Wireless streets of Shadowrun, I would call uncontrolled environment.
Countless wireless systems overlapping each other, some not working with others. Hackers/users installing their own wireless scr*w those other networks type of attitudes.
So the hardware for the wireless networks in Shadowrun are MAGIC, very robust, adaptable, hardened, things that I can not imagine by todays standards. Kinda of a wireless survival of the fittest. If you make wireless hardware that can not deal with the changing environment it does not get sold. Those companies hardware that does sells, and other companies copy the hardware to sell and improve it if they can.
There is Mana based Magic then there is the Tech based Magic.
This gives me an idea for a Hospital Run.
A sign on the door says, "Please turn off all wireless devices while on Hospital Grounds." As you pass through the door there is a archway device that beeps if there are any wireless devices on. A guard glares at you menencingly as an automated voice says, "Turn off any wireless devices and step through the archway again, Please."
The walls would be covered with as much Wi-Fi blocking paint as the hospital could afford. As it would be really bad for a patient to die because of some computer "glitch".
A sign on the door says, "Please turn off all wireless devices while on Hospital Grounds." As you pass through the door there is a archway device that beeps if there are any wireless devices on. A guard glares at you menencingly as an automated voice says, "Turn off any wireless devices and step through the archway again, Please."
The walls would be covered with as much Wi-Fi blocking paint as the hospital could afford. As it would be really bad for a patient to die because of some computer "glitch".
| QUOTE (Demon_Bob) |
| The walls would be covered with as much Wi-Fi blocking paint as the hospital could afford. As it would be really bad for a patient to die because of some computer "glitch". |
I doubt you'll see that on an entire hospital. You might have it in some units, but not the entire grounds. Anyhow in an application where external transmissions really needs to be stopped you don't use wifi blocking paint, you use a full faraday cage. You get NO signal penetration in or out. As an example, MRI rooms are typically protected with a faraday cage for protecting the integrity of the very weak signal.
The places where you seriously run into this are secure areas, and it isn't just wireless there. I seem to remember reading that the new version of the presidents situation room will be able to detect electronics being carried past the point where you are not allowed to carry them.
Actually the RF signal in an MRI is not weak, you should see what it does the non MRI rated equipment inside the Magnet room. 
Many equipment OEM spent some research money finding out how to have life sign monitoring equipment that would "function" in the Magnet room.
Yes the return signal is weak, but the originating signal is not weak. But the use of "notch" filtering tech allows the weak signals to be selected from the background.
The Faraday cage also contains the magnetic fields to a degree also, otherwise it would spill out and maybe cause issues.
WMS
Many equipment OEM spent some research money finding out how to have life sign monitoring equipment that would "function" in the Magnet room.
Yes the return signal is weak, but the originating signal is not weak.
But the use of "notch" filtering tech allows the weak signals to be selected from the background.The Faraday cage also contains the magnetic fields to a degree also, otherwise it would spill out and maybe cause issues.
WMS
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| Actually the RF signal in an MRI is not weak, you should see what it does the non MRI rated equipment inside the Magnet room. |
When one of the local hospitals got an MRI, (~ 15 years ago?) it caused problems with the cars that were in the parking lot when it was turned on, because of insufficient shielding and a start-up spike.
I felt lucky that it only fragged my walkman and reset my cars electronic odometer to 0. I have no idea what problems it caused inside the hospital.
| QUOTE (Demon_Bob) | ||
When one of the local hospitals got an MRI, (~ 15 years ago?) it caused problems with the cars that were in the parking lot when it was turned on, because of insufficient shielding and a start-up spike. I felt lucky that it only fragged my walkman and reset my cars electronic odometer to 0. I have no idea what problems it caused inside the hospital. |
<shudders at the above>
Damn sounds like most of the shielding was not there.
WMS
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| Actually the RF signal in an MRI is not weak, you should see what it does the non MRI rated equipment inside the Magnet room. |
I didn't feel like going through the bit about why it probably isn't good idea to bring the gear you smuggled past the guard into the 7T MRI room to carry out your nefarious plot. Having the street sam's steel skeleton grabbed by the magnet and him hurled head first into the magnet as it burn out all his cyberware sounds kind of clever though. ..
In our new building we had an emergency power feed running 1 ft from the isocenter of the magnet. Siemens really didn't like that, as they hadn't shielded the floor very well. We had to pull that out. Fortunately the rest of those conduits were full of fiber.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ May 27 2007, 11:16 AM) |
| <shudders at the above> Damn sounds like most of the shielding was not there. WMS |
It is in the basement of the building.
I'm not sure if they felt that the ground would be enough shielding, or if there was some interaction between the Shield Ground and the earth allowing the spike to propagate through, or if they missed a section. (like the floor)
Funny thing is I think that they didn't really know it was even a problem at first Most of the people that experienced problems were only there during one power-up, didn't know what had happened and might not even be able to associate a time with the odd problem that occured.
The only reason I had an idea was because I was wearing my walkman at the time. (Not a fun experience.)
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