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Dayhawk
So it appears that a couple of my players worked out a background story where they met each other in jail. Small time stuff, but now they have a record.

But then they purchased a fake sin.

Does this mean that they can get past casual inspection but if they get caught they can be identified?

What I want to avoid is this becoming such a probably that it affects the whole party.
coolgrafix
QUOTE (Dayhawk)
Does this mean that they can get past casual inspection but if they get caught they can be identified?

That's the short version.

If they get fingerprinted, retina scanned, DNA sampled, facially recognized, or sampled via some other biometric means then it's likely (but not a certainty) that their real SIN will show up. Is this a problem for the rest of the crew? Maybe. But there are so many ways to leave data/astral/DNA trails for real SINners, fake SINners, and the SINless alike, that the odds really are in the favor of the investigators in the 2070's. And God forbid they actually talk to your Loyalty 1 contacts. wink.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Dayhawk)
Does this mean that they can get past casual inspection but if they get caught they can be identified?

They had best not try to get onto an airplane, into a courthouse or get arrested using a fake SIN. Basically, don't go places where they really want to know who you are rather then "does he have the money to buy this slurpy." Other than that, it's unlikely that their fake ID would get spotted any faster than anyone else's fake IDs. No fake SIN that wasn't made by an intelligence agency or other big government/corporate agency will stand up to you getting arrested and booked into jail. They may not know who you are, but they will know something just isn't right.

But a criminal SIN means their probation officer gets to show up and search their place and run drug tests any time they feel like it. And it's back to the slammer if they find drugs or guns or anything fishy. And if they can't find them then every cop in the city gets a chance to spot and arrest them as a fugitive.

So you get a license to abuse them a bit.
laughingowl
One question if they want the background, but not the flaw...

How old and how long ago...

It is entirely possible the records where lost.

They might have been in jail, but that doesnt mean 100% they (currently) have a criminal SIN.

NOTE: The way I play it:


1) If presenting a 'fake ID' as long as that fake ID passes muster, they are safe. Now if the FAKE ID is spotted (and they have a real sin (either criminal or normal), then that is matched (in spotting the fake).

2) There is a chance (depending on what they do) that random survielance will spot anyone with a criminal SIN. Going into any high security area: (SeaTac, goerment buildign, the needle, etc) there is a chance facial recognition kcks off a hits a match with the criminal data base. Likewie rest assured any known crime scene, is tested against known criminals. If they leave a bit of blood of tissue at a known crime scene it IS going to be added to their list.


Criminal Sin (or even SIN) is one of the more painful if played 'by the rules' flaws.
psychophipps
The main issue with having a criminal SIN is that all of your misdeeds will eventually catch up with you as your ID is in a database that everyone looks at first. As long as you maintain a low profile and don't leave too much stuff behind, you'll be fine. There are way too many criminals out there doing what they do, even after prison, for years and years for it to be any real hassle as long as you don't do anything stupid.

Of course, your character getting randomly pulled over can lead to some interesting moments...
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )
Jack Kain
Remember Criminal SIN does not mean wanted criminal. I assume the Criminal SIN assumes at some point you were arrested and released. Even if it was only six months in jail.

Trying to pass a check point with a fake sin (and getting caught) will result in either a loss of nuyen.gif a bribe to being arrested and labeled with a criminal sin.

I'd say the most common criminal sin a runner to have would be trying to pass off fake ID. Not counting the runners serving 20 years to life.

Say you have a criminal sin. If your a runner you wouldn't use your SIN for anything you'd use a fake sin. Why let law enforcement know your in the area if you don't have to.

So if Lone Star connects your DNA or fingerprints found at a crime, to your criminal SIN that just says you WERE in the area. Or someone stole your blood/ tore off your hand etc. That doesn't tell them where to look. Unless you did something stupid like used your real sin for your apartment.

It is likely you'll need to lay low for longer after a run.
Denver might be a better place as a city of four nations, you escape lonestar by crossing the border into Knight Errant territory.

And I don't think Lone Star would want Knight Errant to nab their criminal (or vica versa) unless it was something real nasty. After all if to many criminals escape and get caught by the competition you might lose your contract.

Of course you wouldn't go through the checkpoint.
Ravor
Well personally I don't think that for 5 or 10 BPs SINer or even Criminal SIN should be played as rough as some people seem to think. Any quality that is as likely to get a character captured/killed as 'the man' knowing exactly who you are and where you've been should be worth way more points then either of those are.

So I tend to eyeball things and have the flaws kick in whenever it feels right for them to kick in, such as when a Fake SIN glitches while trying to pass muster, or if they have to pass an actual indepth real background check for a secured position, ect... And of course, the treatment that the character receives after being made depends on whether or not they have a Criminal Flag on their SIN or not. (Besides, since when did Lonestar and crew really need a reason to bust down some poor slob's door in the middle of the night to conduct a full body cavity search on his daughters/mate?)

After all, considering the shear size of the Corperate Court's SIN database, I imagine that even with the Sixth World's magical computing information overload and the shear volume of devices trying to access the databases at once is what allows the SINless to fall through the cracks, and those very same flaws are what allows the SINer flaws not to be crippling. Plus in a world where the corps and even the governments want and need to mantain a sizable underclass to use as they wish, whether as denible soliders in the cold war that exists between the corps or as lab rats to see what effect the newest strain of weaponized virus has on the metahuman body I seriously doubt that they would want to build a working system of 24-7 blanket coverage even if such a system could ever be made to work. After all, the dirty little secret is that the 'powers that be' need Shadowrunners as much as Shadowrunners need them, because the Shadows is the glue and release valve that just barely manages to hold the tired and broken world together, without them everything collapses and we get the corps firing missiles at each other in downtown Seattle again...
Dayhawk
If after a little while they decide that they really want that record erased, it seems like they could do it after alot of work.

But since there were build points put towards it, should I charge a karma cost?

What if a player wanted to fix one of their negative qualities...
hobgoblin
i would just roll for the quality of the fake SIN, and if it fails, the real one pops up (or maybe both, with no-one knowing if either of them is real).
Jaid
buying off a negative quality costs double the BP cost in karma + some roleplaying. pretty sure it says something to that effect in the karma advancement section of the book.
knasser
QUOTE (kzt)
No fake SIN that wasn't made by an intelligence agency or other big government/corporate agency will stand up to you getting arrested and booked into jail.


Of course, the world of 2070 is very corrupt. If you pay the nuyen for a rating 6 fake SIN, you might have just paid for one made by a intelligence / government worker. Or assuming that all of this is privatised off in Shadowrun, some corp that holds a contract to produce SINs.
Mistwalker
It would also depend on where you had your criminal SIN.

One of my players has a background where they are wanted for murder, but in Russia. She is currently running in Seattle, so even if she does get picked up, extradition would be a problem.

That, and she has made a good contact in both the FBI and CIA, feeding them some info to help their careers, so they may get involved if she did get picked up.
Starmage21
who's FBI and CIA? biggrin.gif I'd imagine the U/CAS have similar agencies biggrin.gif
kzt
QUOTE (knasser)
Of course, the world of 2070 is very corrupt. If you pay the nuyen for a rating 6 fake SIN, you might have just paid for one made by a intelligence / government worker.

No, a really solid one has your biometrics embeded in it, and involves someone going and doing all the tedious background stuff, like adding you to the correct elementary school records. And having someone answer the phone when they call your mother.

You are more likely to get one that belongs to the local Lone Star police chief, which might not exactly work out well when you get stopped by the cops. Just because they are corrupt doesn't mean you can trust them. There is no honor among thieves.
Rotbart van Dainig
A SIN made by someone allowed to issue SINs is, by definition, real. That's what happen after the second crash to some fake ones: Someone official managed to dig up a plausible looking backup and redistributed it.

That means that if you bribe the right people, you'll get real a SIN issued - which can be quite cheap if you don't mind being a citizen of, say, romania... do you want a PhD, too? wink.gif


There is no inheritent benefit from fake SINs except the availability and the control of the data.
laughingowl
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
A SIN made by someone allowed to issue SINs is, by definition, real. That's what happen after the second crash to some fake ones: Someone official managed to dig up a plausible looking backup and redistributed it.

That means that if you bribe the right people, you'll get real a SIN issued - which can be quite cheap if you don't mind being a citizen of, say, romania... do you want a PhD, too? wink.gif


There is no inheritent benefit from fake SINs except the availability and the control of the data.

Agreed:

Although here is the question can you have multiple SINs? (real).


If you have a CAS criminal SIN...

Then make a trip to Romania and donate three paris of Levi's and a 5 kilo bag of Soy-paste and are welcomed as the newest Romanian Citizen.

You know have to SINs.


Here is how I see it working:

If you 'present' the Romania SIN. It will check (and obviously pass).

Now if they run your biometrics for 'other hits' is where it gets sticky.

Here it is most likely they will also match your Criminal SIN.

Normally this is not something they would do.

However, very high security or if they are suspicous (stopping you for possible weapon violation, or perhaps speeding, etc) it is more likely they will run you biometrics, rather then just match you to the SIN provided.


Now if they match the criminal SIn, then it all depends on who what where.

CAS criminal SIN, Romanian legit SIN, in Seattle, you probably are getting hauled off (if outstanding wants on the criminal sin) and turned over to CAS.

CAS Criminal SIN, Romanian Legit SIN, pulled over in Vladistock and they likely buy you a beer smile.gif.



I see there are two ways SINS work.


1) (the most common): Do you match this ID. SIN is present as a form of identification. Check are done (how may depends on rating) to verify you are that person and that person is legit. A million other SINs dont matter. It is all about does 'THIS ONE' read legit.

2) An ID is trying to be made (no SIN given, suspicious of the SIN, or just because): and a person's biometrics are run. The querry obviously takes much longer (relatively speaking, this is going through the mug shot book), however, here any 'SIN' that has been tied to your BIO-metrics is likely to be matched. It is just as likely here, they match you criminal SIN, or you legit SIN (or both).

psychophipps
One thing to keep in mind is that as a known criminal it's much harder, or impossible if it's a felony, to get a passport. Hard to be diddy-bopping to Romania unless you like the inside of a cargo container for a few weeks.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )
Mistwalker
I don't think that you would get a new SIN just for becoming a citizen of another country (unless you told them you were SINless), as they would just add their Citizenship to your SIN.
knasser

I think one thing is for definite - there will be a "legitimate" need for false SINs. Government and corporate agencies will produce them for undercover agents whether government or police, witness protection and I'm sure there are more.

It's going to be the same story as usual - a system designed to provide security and integrity undermined from the top when the powers that be find it would restrict them in the same way as the peasentry.
WhiskeyMac
The book states they would issue you a new SIN for the Global SIN directory and revoke your old one. Unless you're applying as a SINless person, then you would get dual citizenship, which is rare according to the BBB.

I think along the lines of Ravor that since it is only a 10BP negative quality it shouldn't ruin your chances of doing anything. Yeah, you may be hassled every once in awhile but unless you are a sex offender or other major offender, your life can be normal. Of course, since you're a shadowrunner, you break the law simply by owning a Restricted gun without a license. I'd suggest asking the players what they went in for. Grand Theft Auto, Grand Larceny, Shoplifting, B & E might just get them a flag on their SIN that says "Hey, I have a record." While Sexual Assault, Assault & Battery, or Vehicular Manslaughter will probably make it illegal for you to own a gun, restrict you from some housing, or even make it where you can't operate a vehicle.
Nocturne
So am I correct in the understanding that if you had a legal corporate SIN and were fired, you would have to arrange for citizenship under some other entity, say UCAS if this took place in Seattle? Would this be pretty much automatic, assuming nothing anomalous cropped up? I'm a bit fuzzy on how this would work, but I'd think it could get very bureaucratic.
Degausser
This is the way I look at it (hope this helps.)
Our group never liked rolling to see if a license was spotted or not, we just kinda declaired what was and was not acceptable do do with varying levels of Fake IDs. (Mainly after one incident in 3rd when a dude with a lvl 6 fake ID rolled no sucesses vs. a routine toll bridge.)

Compare it to modern day.

You have a fake Driver's licence (saying that you are 21) and a real driver's licence (saying that you've been to Juvie, and that you're 19)

1)You write a check at the local grocery store for some food. They ask to see your driver's licence to verify that it's you. You show them, they see it looks like you, badda bing badda boom, you're fine. (You could get away with this with a Fake ID lvl 1 IMHO)

2)You go to a bar and try to get drunk. The bartender/bouncer asks to see your ID. You tentitivly hand it to him. He examines it fairly closely. With a lvl three fake ID you could probably get by (depending on how much the bar cared about keeping underaged kids outta their bar.

3)You get pulled over for a moving violation and show the officer your Fake ID (not wanting to show him you have a record for being in Juvie for stealing cars.) He runs your license and he's gonna find out who you are unless you SOMEHOW managed to get that licesnce's info into the DMV. You'd need a Licence 6 to get by.
Wanderer
QUOTE (laughingowl)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ May 19 2007, 03:29 PM)

CAS criminal SIN,  Romanian legit SIN,  in Seattle, you probably are getting hauled off (if outstanding wants on the criminal sin) and turned over to CAS.



Excuse me, but that does not add up. First of all, Criminal SIN does not mean "you are a wanted fugitive", it means "you have a criminal record". Moreover, the book mentions it is not illegal, even if frowned upon, to have several legitimate SINs with multiple nations or corporations. You may or may not have outstanding warrants on you, notwithstanding your ownership of a normal or criminal SIN, but if you haven't, they cannot arbitrarily detain or deport you. You are a bonafide Romanian Citizen that got a criminal record during his previous residence in CAS.
djinni
QUOTE (Degausser)
This is the way I look at it (hope this helps.)
Our group never liked rolling to see if a license was spotted or not, we just kinda declaired what was and was not acceptable do do with varying levels of Fake IDs.  (Mainly after one incident in 3rd when a dude with a lvl 6 fake ID rolled no sucesses vs. a routine toll bridge.)

that's the point of the game, but you also have to remember that just because it fails doesn't mean the character is hosed, when you run it the person who runs it will just start asking questions. if you can't answer them then you are hosed.
QUOTE
Compare it to modern day.

You have a fake Driver's licence (saying that you are 21) and a real driver's licence (saying that you've been to Juvie, and that you're 19)

1)You write a check at the local grocery store for some food.  They ask to see your driver's licence to verify that it's you.  You show them, they see it looks like you, badda bing badda boom, you're fine.  (You could get away with this with a Fake ID lvl 1 IMHO)

yeah most low level supply places are just checking to have a data trail, when the check comes back bad they can still get their money etc...
QUOTE
2)You go to a bar and try to get drunk.  The bartender/bouncer asks to see your ID.  You tentitivly hand it to him.  He examines it fairly closely.  With a lvl three fake ID you could probably get by (depending on how much the bar cared about keeping underaged kids outta their bar.

he won't even examine it closely if you have the money and something saying you are of age unless it is upscale even if he knows its a fake he'll let you in.
QUOTE
3)You get pulled over for a moving violation and show the officer your Fake ID (not wanting to show him you have a record for being in Juvie for stealing cars.)  He runs your license and he's gonna find out who you are unless you SOMEHOW managed to get that licesnce's info into the DMV.  You'd need a Licence 6 to get by.

this is where it gets sticky, if the ID fails, he runs it again usually 3 times if any one of them come up good then he lets it go. however he does run warrants etc... if it doesn't come up good, then he asks questions. "did you change your name recently, is this your current address, is this a nick name, do you have any other forms of ID, etc..." first thing he's going to assume is that you gave him the wrong number, most cops on routine stops do not assume you are a criminal, nor are they "out to get you." they assume you are telling the truth unless you do something or fit the profile of a criminal. being polite and formal is a good way to get on their good side. and that has nothing to do with the ID. if he runs it and it fails he might let you go because he doesn't want to do the paperwork. however like was noted Airport security will not ask questions, if it fails, you get denied the ticket you purchased. when being arrested they take every sample from you they can and run the match, ignoring any information or ID's you have.
in our games alot of running the ID is roleplay, sometimes the ID isn't even checked just looked at.

but the most important thing to remember, just because the dice roll failed doesn't mean the ID actually failed
Abstruse
Here's the trick...if they just want it as background for the characters, let them. Only do all this criminal SIN crap if they take the flaw. However, if they don't take the flaw and just want it in their background, maybe they paid a decker years ago to get rid of the criminal record. Maybe they were in a corp prison that wasn't exactly official and therefore they weren't registered. Maybe they were declared dead through an accident or through them faking their deaths.

Basically what I'm saying is that if your players have a good backstory, then don't punish them for it. Use it to your advantage story-wise, but don't force them to take the flaw if they don't want to.

The Abstruse One
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