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Degausser
Okay, imagine it, just because you are a mage (or an adept or, maybe a cooky technomancer) doesn't mean that you may not want to engage in full AR in the matrix, through your commlink right? (they, STREET MAGIC says that Chaos mages love the matrix.)

So, how do you do it without a datajack?

I know trodes exist, but how far? Will a Trode rig and a rating 5 comlink make you just as good as a hacker who's "running cold?" What if you have bioware reaction enchancers, wired reflexes, or a sustained "increased reaction" spell? Does that make you as good as any hacker running hot, with the added bonus of "running cold?" (The description of Reaction enchancers and increased reaction is that it makes you "think faster" so my default impression would be yes.)
ornot
I seem to recall that the FAQ supported superfast interaction with AR. I've never liked that, but there is quite a lot of support for the concept on DS.

As far as 'needing' a datajack to be any good, that has been done away with. Now the thing that makes a hacker is to a large extent his gear, and an Awakened character can make a perfectly good hacker if they invest in a skill or two and all the high end gear. But the BP for that have to come from somewhere, so they'd be less pokey than an Awakened who sank all their points into 'being Awakened'. Don't even get me started on Adept hackers!
Aaron
QUOTE (Degausser)
I know trodes exist, but how far? Will a Trode rig and a rating 5 comlink make you just as good as a hacker who's "running cold?"

If u gots teh sk33lz, then yes.
Big D
If you're AR hacking, you don't even need trodes... you can use gloves and your glasses or contacts.

QUOTE
Don't even get me started on Adept hackers!

How about high-force ally AR hackers? nyahnyah.gif
Cheops
You'd need trodes, commlink, and image link to access AR. You need a sim module to access Cold VR. If you want to access Hot VR you need to hack your module to provide Hot/BTL levels of Simsense. Alternatively you could get a Sim Rig and an Image Link and then you could also record simsense.

Unfortunately none of the rolls in the matrix use Attributes so your Enhance Attribute spells don't help. Increased Reflexes specifically aids your initiative in AR.

As long as you have the gear you'd be just as good. This means you need the programs at rating 5, comm link with everything at 5, and you'd need the skills. If you've got all of that then you are comparable. With the points sink of being a mage you're probably better off specializing into one of the hacker specialties.

You can only get bonuses from magic/cyber/etc while in AR. VR (cold or hot) overrides all of that.
Big D
Trodes and a sim module gets you VR.

For AR, gloves and a visual display will do. However, that's a rather clumsy way to do it, and trodes *are* cheap.
2bit
bottom line tradeoff - all things being equal, a superfast AR hacker gains immunity to black IC and dumpshock, and is able to freely split his actions with the real world. A traditional hot sim hacker has neither of those, but gains a +2 dice bonus (IIRC).
lunchbox311
QUOTE (2bit)
bottom line tradeoff - all things being equal, a superfast AR hacker gains immunity to black IC and dumpshock, and is able to freely split his actions with the real world. A traditional hot sim hacker has neither of those, but gains a +2 dice bonus (IIRC).

True but some things can take longer to do. VR is needed for some tests to be practical like breaking into a node passively IIRC (no book handy.)
hobgoblin
QUOTE (lunchbox311)
QUOTE (2bit @ May 23 2007, 12:00 PM)
bottom line tradeoff - all things being equal, a superfast AR hacker gains immunity to black IC and dumpshock, and is able to freely split his actions with the real world.  A traditional hot sim hacker has neither of those, but gains a +2 dice bonus (IIRC).

True but some things can take longer to do. VR is needed for some tests to be practical like breaking into a node passively IIRC (no book handy.)

true, your looking at 1 hour VR vs 1 day AR...

i just wish that they had done a similar thing on other extended tests, like say data search.
2bit
Probing test. It's not worth mentioning because everyone knows you need to go VR to do it, and it's the only test where being in AR or VR changes the time required to do it. No one does it in AR. The gulf between the two intervals is huge - it's a non-choice.
knasser

But probing is only necessary on the initial hacking attempt where you're unlikely to get stomped on by IC. Maybe if you're hacking the new node from an existing and potentially hostile node, perhaps. So the upshot is that you can go VR while your still outside the node and safe, hack the node and switch to AR as soon as you enter the dangerous innards of the system.

Personally, this is house rule number 2 or 3 in my game. Initiative boosters do not give you bonus actions in the matrix. That's easy enough to justify with some fluff and means the best hackers are ones that use VR, not AR which is how I like it.

Of course initiative boosters are still very useful. Now the samurai can continue to dodge and fight whilst instructing his Piloted car to come round an pick him up. Now that's worth having!

-K.
Degausser
Okay, so, let's just get this down for postarity (which is what we all try SO HARD to maintain on this thread.) Just so I can make sure I've got it right in my head.

(in order or how awsome it is for hackers)

AR: "Augmented reality" uses AR gloves and goggles, or just your comlink (if you are cheap) and you can do anything in AR you can do in VR, but it takes a rediculus amount of time. AR still leaves you in pefect control of your body, and you are not "Zoned out"

VR (Cold) Full on, total imersion Virtual reality. Usually, you are compleatly unaware of your body (but this can be changed) and you "imerse" yourself in the matrix. Times between tests are a lot faster, you gain an extra initiative pass while in VR combat (total of two) and you cannot be killed, or even hurt.

Requires a comlink modified for a simrig, and either a data jack or trodes.

VR (HOT) you purposfully remove all the safties in 'cold' VR to make yourself faster and more responsive. You get two initiative Passes in the matrix (total of three) and gain plus two dice on all hacking tests. Black IC CAN hurt you while running hot, but otherwise is the same as VR above.

Reqires a comlink modified for simrig (with the safties removed, a.k.a. modded for BTLs/Hot Running), and a Datajack.


So, as far as I can tell, anyone without a datajack can still be an OK hacker using Cold VR, and they don't need any cyber implants. They won't be able to beat a grade A hacker running Hot, but they don't have to have any cyber either.
Kazum
another question: if i get attacked by black IC while in HOT-VR, can i then switch to Cold-VR and so be protectet of any (stun/physical) damage? Or is the connection not only "jammed open" but also my "Hot-Sim-Mode" is "Jammed open" ?
Degausser
hmmm, interesting question. Switching between VR and AR is a simple action, as is switching between VR(Hot) and VR(Cold). But you are right, it would make sense for Black IC to try to keep the victim "Running Hot" so it can stun him unconcious.

A simple thing to do would be to apply the same test against attempting to Jack out. As outlined on 231 of the core book, any attempt to jack out requires a complex action and opposed test (Willpower+biofeedback filter) aginst the IC's (Rating +response). Just do the same thing if the hacer wants to switch modes. If the hacker manages more hits, he manages to switch to "Safe" cold mode. (Note that emergency jack out from cold mode still gives you a nasty dumpshock headache, in the form of stun damage. This is the only time I can find when Cold mode users can take damage.)

Note however, that this uses up one initiative pass, and that cold mode makes you slower and a worse hacker. And, if you are trying to get things done ASAP, then this might not be the way to go, especially if you don't want security finding out where you are.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Reqires a comlink modified for simrig (with the safties removed, a.k.a. modded for BTLs/Hot Running), and a Datajack.

Do you need a Datajack to use BTLs? I was under the impression that trodes were fine. If you can use BTLs, shouldn't you also be able to go Hot without a datajack?

I'm afraid that I'm not too up on the hacking rules. frown.gif
hobgoblin
One thing, getting a sim module moded for hot sim have nothing to do with sim rig...
Degausser
Er, yes sim module. That's what I said. Yes. Don't even bother scrolling up to make sure I didn't make a stupid mistake. It's not needed. Totally not.

*Critically glitched con roll*
Ravor
Yeah HappyDaze according to RAW Trodes can do basically everything that a Datajack can. (If I remember correctly a Datajack can slot Knowsofts without a Sim Module which Trodes can't, but I could very easily be wrong on that count.)
HappyDaze
Thank you.
Big D
Actually, using my weak search fu, from what I could find you don't even technically have to have the skills. Just have a high INT, and you can default everything except electronic warfare.

That seems massively wrong to me, but it ties back to the issue with hacking where you normally use skill *instead of* attribute, not with it.
2bit
QUOTE (Ravor)
Yeah HappyDaze according to RAW Trodes can do basically everything that a Datajack can. (If I remember correctly a Datajack can slot Knowsofts without a Sim Module which Trodes can't, but I could very easily be wrong on that count.)

In SR4, the datajack is assumed to include unlimited headware storage memory. That's where the knowsoft limitation comes in. Obviously, a trode net can only connect you to data stored elsewhere.
hobgoblin
nothing like having a 3D map of the city your in stored in your head wink.gif
Degausser
Hey, now that I think about it, cyberware seems a lot less impressive than it did in 3rd ed.

Trodes can sub for Datajacks (and, apparantly, let you 'run hot'), people with a smartlink hooked to thier goggles get the same bonus as cyberware smartlinks, and (if I'm reading this thread right) you could feed Knowsofts and Skillsofts through your comlink, to your trodes, and get bonuses that way.

Wow, suddenly and adept with money just got WAY more scary
Ravor
Only if your DM glosses over the 'common sense' problems of equipment slipping out of position during runs, being detected, ect...

And before anyone points out that it isn't following sarcastic.gif RAW sarcastic.gif let me reply in advance; "Yeah, so what? It balances things back somewhat towards Third Edition's "feel", which is a good thing in my opinion."
Nocturne
QUOTE (Degausser)
Wow, suddenly and adept with money just got WAY more scary

Yes, yes they are.

I'm starting a game soon and just worked through character creation with my four players (hi guys, I know some of you read Dumpshock). To my surprise, all of them are going with adepts -- hacker adept, silent-way-type adept, gunslinger adept, and face adept. They are each very good at what they do, probably almost as good (or in many cases better) than a cybered-up version.

Coming from a 3rd (and 2nd... and 1st) edition gamemaster, it's all just a little weird to me. /begin-grampa-mode Why in my day, our deckers were cybered up with datajacks, chipjacks, skillwires, VCR, eyes/ears... bah. /end-grampa-mode
Nocturne
QUOTE (Ravor)
Only if your DM glosses over the 'common sense' problems of equipment slipping out of position during runs, being detected, ect...

The same blow that can knock 'trodes or goggles off your head could also yank or break an optic cable sticking out of that datajack. Sure, there no chance of that happening with a smartlink going straight into cyberarm DNI and then to cybereyes, but that's so 2060. Next you'll be showing off your surplus Russian e-war datajack. smile.gif
Ravor
Cables? I'm not that old school now... cyber.gif

Between skinlinks and wireless I can get everything talking almost as securely as cables with none of the hassles... smokin.gif
2bit
QUOTE (Degausser @ May 24 2007, 03:05 PM)
Hey, now that I think about it, cyberware seems a lot less impressive than it did in 3rd ed.

Trodes can sub for Datajacks (and, apparantly, let you 'run hot'), people with a smartlink hooked to thier goggles get the same bonus as cyberware smartlinks, and (if I'm reading this thread right) you could feed Knowsofts and Skillsofts through your comlink, to your trodes, and get bonuses that way.

Just remember the sim module! - you still need that modded to run hot. And you still need skillwires to use Activesofts. All you need for Knowsofts is DNI and a sim module.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
/begin-grampa-mode Why in my day, our deckers were cybered up with datajacks, chipjacks, skillwires, VCR, eyes/ears... bah. /end-grampa-mode

Back in my day we ran naked with Program Carriers! OK, so no one really used the blasted things...
Degausser
QUOTE (HappyDaze)
QUOTE
/begin-grampa-mode Why in my day, our deckers were cybered up with datajacks, chipjacks, skillwires, VCR, eyes/ears... bah. /end-grampa-mode

Back in my day we ran naked with Program Carriers! OK, so no one really used the blasted things...

Yeah! An! An we ran runs NAKED, uphill, both ways in the snow!

And there was none of this mamby-pampy 'foootwork' crap that all the youngin's do today! We went in with our unmodified Ares preditors, UNMODIFIED I tell ya! With our normal ammo, and we made do 'cuse we didn't have no better. We didn't have none of this 'wireless hacker' crap. We just went in, found our data node, jacked our decker in, and waited. AND WE LIKED IT. We survived by our wits, our brawn, and we actually BURNED KARMA!!! Burned it just to get through a run. And ain't none of us ever needed to use the hand of god neither.

Hey, hey where are you takin' me? Whatcha doin' with that needle? Why . . . why . . .

ooooooh, ooooooookaaaaaaay. Naaapy time now.
ornot
Ares Preditors? ammo? Luxury!

We had to wrench out our own teeth to throw at the guards! An' oor hacker had to sift through the matrix with his hands! None of this namby pamby virtual icons! An' we didn't even ahve any Karma!

You kids today. Don't even know that ye're born!
HappyDaze
We had to unload an entire magazine of heavy pistol ammo to drop any ganger in an armored jacket. That was until our rigger told us that the guys in the garage were commenting that machine pistols were the new 'must have' weapon...
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