Nocturne
May 25 2007, 08:38 PM
Let's assume an un-Stealthed hacker persona is meeting with a Mr. Johnson in some node. The hacker would like to Track back to their commlink and have a little look-see. It seems that according to the rules, Mr. J might only have to get one hit on a Matrix Perception test to ask what programs the hacker is running, yes?
If so, is there any particular reason why a Mr. J, or other untrusting party, wouldn't run Analyze to continually monitor another persona (or more, with appropriate penalties)?
Dashifen
May 25 2007, 09:03 PM
Not really, no; if Mr. J wants to perceive things on the Matrix, an Analyze program is your way to do that (see Matrix Perception, page 217, SR4).
Most of my players always have analyze running. What stops someone from being found, however, is their stealth program. Computer + Analyze vs. Hacking + Stealth is the necessary opposed roll in that case.
I also (house) ruled that if you're analyze program is always running, then it's only Analyze vs. Hacking + Stealth (notice the missing Computer skill) since the user is not actively tweaking settings and otherwise manipulating the software to get the best results. If an automatic process finds a stealthy person, the user can use Computer + Analyze to get more information about that stealthy person using another test. That way, the stealthy type person might be able to log off before too much information about them is found out. I've sometimes made this another opposed roll as above, but sometimes -- especially when it's a player trying to get dirt on an NPC and I don't want t slow things down with more rolling -- I just make the threshold of this second test equal to the stealth rating of the target being perceived.
Note that I don't think there's any information under Matrix Perception about only rolling the program rating if the program is running "in the background" as it were. I extrapolated from some of the rules for security sensors which are located in the Technical Security section (p. 253).
Cheops
May 25 2007, 09:34 PM
Well...the rules say that if a Node is trying to detect you then it rolls Firewall + Analyze. I'm pretty sure that nodes don't take actions so I'd think that when Analyze is running automatically it probably gets Firewall + Analyze. Makes sense to me since Firewall is in charge of the security and therefore is on the "look-out."
As far as detecting un-stealthed hackers it actually says to refer to the Perception test thresholds. Looking at that table I'd probably put the threshold at 2 (Normal) or more since it definitely isn't Obvious/Large/Loud that a tracking program is being used IMO.
Nocturne
May 25 2007, 09:48 PM
I just find it a bit odd that there's suddenly an entirely new mechanic (hits = pieces of info) for Matrix Perception vs. regular Perception and Assensing (thresholds). I suppose I'll keep the pieces of info mechanic and just require thresholds to be able to turn hits in for progressively obscure data (running programs, Matrix damage, databombs, etc.).
I guess the really paranoid at the hypothetical meeting would just have a Stealthed Agent run the Track.
OneTrikPony
May 26 2007, 04:18 PM
I started a thread on this exact topic before I saw this one. If I may I'll just post my ideas here. I've asked the mods to delete my redundant thread.
| QUOTE |
| Note that I don't think there's any information under Matrix Perception about only rolling the program rating if the program is running "in the background" as it were. I extrapolated from some of the rules for security sensors which are located in the Technical Security section (p. 253). |
I think that this is actualy supported by the rules in the BBB it's just not under matrix perception
| QUOTE |
I recently discovered that You don’t need to run an agent on your Comlink to run analyze looking for intruders. Probably, I have not invented fire here but I don’t see that it’s been mentioned recently.
BBB pp. 217 (Matrix Perception tests).
When you are accessing a node, you may set your analyze program to automatically scan and detect other user/ icons on that node with a Simple Action. A successful scan will be reported to you. The program will maintain that task for as long as you are on that node or until you kill that process. The game master secretly conducts Matrix Perception Tests to determine if you detect other icons accessing the system.
BBB pp. 218 (Accessing Multiple Nodes)
It’s common practice for Matrix users to connect to more than one node at the same time…There is no penalty to switch your attention between accessed nodes, but you can only act in one node at a time… If there’s ever any need to make a test for a persona in a node that the user has accessed but is not currently “active�… then the tests should only use the appropriate program rating or computer attribute and not the user’s skill.
BBB pp. 232 (Simultaneous Combat in multiple Nodes)
It is possible that an unfortunate hacker who is accessing multiple nodes simultaneously may come under attack in different nodes at once… (I include this because it is in the VR section of the Matrix chapter. Meaning that a hacker can subscribe to multiple nodes in VR also.)
I take these semi-random quotes to mean that you don’t need to have an agent loaded with Analyze running on your Comlink in order to automatically scan for intruders. If you treat a Comlink just like any other node then all you need to do is keep your persona ‘accessed’ to your Comlink while you’re off running around the matrix. Like it says on pg. 218 your Analyze program can make rolls by itself while your attention is elsewhere. The only draw back might be that *technically* every node you currently Access fills up one of your Active Subscription slots so doing this might mean that you can run one less agent or drone. I say that’s arguable because how can you not be ‘Logged On’ to your own Comlink. Even if this method does require a Subscription slot it’s a good trade for avoiding the system load of running a watchdog Agent on your own Comlink.
Also I just realized that I can further support this argument with the text on pp. 225 (Detecting Wireless Nodes), “locating a particular active or passive wireless node within Range takes only a Free Action, No Test Required, Comlinks routinely scan for new nodes…� If a Comlink can run the Scan program without attention from the hacker or an Agent it should be able to run the Analyze program as well.
(Funny that the rules assume that you typically have Scan loaded and running. I thought I’d typically have Analyze, Encrypt, Spoof and Stealth running and swap them out with utility programs to avoid hitting the System/Response degradation barrier. Should the Scan program be a part of the OS instead of a utility?) |
OneTrikPony
May 26 2007, 06:00 PM
Sorry for the double post. the last one was so long I wanted to break things up.
About the perception thing
Nocturne
| QUOTE |
| I just find it a bit odd that there's suddenly an entirely new mechanic (hits = pieces of info) for Matrix Perception vs. regular Perception and Assensing (thresholds). I suppose I'll keep the pieces of info mechanic and just require thresholds to be able to turn hits in for progressively obscure data (running programs, Matrix damage, databombs, etc.). |
I think the more mechanics the better we can model the stuff we want to arbitrate. SR4 is much less mechanically flexible than SR3. I also like the idea that perception works differently when you’re in the machine. I want the matrix experience to feel and play differently than the meat world.
I like the implication that the VR environment translates machine code to something that the character can Intuitively react to and manipulate. Hits = Pieces of Information rather than more hits = more obscure information highlights for me that this is a Virtual environment no mater how real it looks. One piece of (un-stealthed) code is no more obscure than another. You also don’t have range modifiers so any one Icon is no harder to perceive than it is to attack. I wish that running in VR gave some benefit to matrix perception test over running in AR.
About the Running Analyze thing.
It seems that the rules completely support running Analyze in the background. I’m starting to think that subscription to your own device (as I mentioned above) is completely unnecessary. This makes me wonder what people have been talking about in other threads about running a watchdog agent on your Comlink. I’m pretty sure that Firewall would not apply to Analyze tests against an Icon that has already penetrated your system. My thought is that once the hacker has found a successful Exploit he’s already past your firewall. Firewall + Analyze is an Exploit Detection test. Computer + Analyze is a Matrix Perception test. In this case there’s no hacker available to add Computer skill to the dice pool.
Cheops makes an interesting point that nodes don’t take actions. The major difference between a persona and a node is that nodes are purely Reactive. The analyze program would only make a test when the game master determines that an event triggers the test.
Nocturne
May 26 2007, 06:36 PM
I think Agents come in (at least in the commlink defense context) when you don't simply want to detect intruders but act on them. Analyze + Firewall is just the trigger for something (alert to your PAN showing up in your image link or alert via earbuds, etc.), and that something could very usefully be IC, just like in other nodes.
Where I was coming from in the meet Mr. J scenario, is that neither the hacker nor Mr. J would be Stealthed. An Agent running wingman could be Stealthed, however, and initiate all the Tracking with a much higher Matrix Perception threshold required to notice it.
Unfortunately, there is no provision in the rules for "Matrix slight-of-hand" -- shielding your running programs from view behind Stealth, but keeping your persona unStealthed. Could be fodder for a house rule, however.
hobgoblin
May 26 2007, 06:45 PM
maybe unwired will bring more tricks of the trade out?
right now there isnt much more then hitting each other with big sticks thats a option if you dont try to disconnect someone.
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