Alright I was poking around the old threads here on technomancers.

Generally people seemed to think that they started off weak. This doesn't make sense to me. While they are short on starting progs and may have to thread some from scratch, some programs are "lynchpins" ,if you will, to hacking. Specifically stealth.

A starting hacker is limited to rating 5 stealth. So if an opposing system can throw 12+ dice they have to start sweating even if they're taking their time and probing. And getting admin access on the fly gets risky really fast. You can't even spend edge to mess up the systems roll. You just have to wait while your GM relishes taking out die after die to throw at you all the while glancing at their notes for the IC in the system.

However a starting technomancer should be able to thread their stealth up to 8-10 and quite possibly not take any damage for 8's or 9's. And if they really want to pull something off they can spend edge to get that 10.

Anyway the point is if they've got solid hacking and exploit, and a high stealth they can break into systems undetected that would be highly likely to catch a hacker. (for example if they're trying to probe into a system with everthing at rating 9 a hacker will get caught ~80% of the time, while the technomancer will only get caught ~4% of the time)

Anyway so the flip side of that is wondering how a technomancer could be stopped. And hence the spider question. How do you use them in your games? Would it be reasonable that in a high security system there would be multiple spiders(or always active IC I guess) just checking out anything and everything all the time. So as soon as you get inside you start having to roll opposed tests. Even with a larger die pool someone will run out of luck after enough opposed tests.

Hmmm, good points. I should say that I haven't had anyone actually play a techno in my group yet, so anything I say about them should be taken with a grain of salt.

The best TM I've seen so far used a real-world normal commlink for almost all hacking needs especially with respect to cybercombat and left stealth, exploit, armor, spoof, and one or two others. Those four, though, made her nigh uncatchable.

For intrusion, she'd thread stealth or exploit or both if she'd had a registered sprite around. Before she intruded, though, she'd usually thread spoof and start redirecting traces all over the damned place to help keep her from being tracked. If she triggered IC or thought she was about to, she'd then thread Armor and laugh as the IC tried to hit her. All in all, it was very effective.

Couple those types of strategies with a normal commlink and programs and TMs suddenly become pretty badass.

Alright a regular comlink merging seemlessly with a living persona seems against the rules. First on the grounds that the rules say that the "cracking" skills that a TM learns are different from the ones a hacker learns. Indicating at the least they'd need to learn those skills twice once for living persona and once for regular hacking.

Second programs like that need to run off of the persona the user is using. Running them on an off comlink would be like bypassing all the response limits by using three comlinks to use all your programs. No. The programs you use seem to have to be "native"

Third it would just be broken. I mean seriously.

I agree,

there's no reason you can't physicaly manipulate two comlinks in AR but you can only have one VR persona at a time and your progs have to run on that persona.

Actually a specific question that potentially affects their power a lot.
Are sprites fundamentally in the "main" matrix and will they "appear" in an isolated node if the technomancer is there.

For example let say going into a run a TM has four powerfull sprites registered for tons of tasks.

On the run the technomancer goes into a building with RF blocking paint. So they lose matrix while in the foyer, and when they get it back inside a cube farm it's just the corps isolated node.

When the TM starts going for paydata the sprites show up right?

If not what if TM stayed connected to their comlink the whole time?

*Edit. Also assist action is just one task right?
*Edit #2: Whoa! Assist action adds to the CF rating! I thought it added extra dice! That makes stealth 15 easily acheivable!

@Dashifen Sure if a TM wants to pick up the "regular" versions of the skills there isn't any reason they couldn't hack using a comlink on the small stuff to keep their health and sprites up for the tough stuff. But that requires either essense draining cyber or Karma/BP spent on even more skills.

Again on assist action, is the "threaded ratings can't go over resonancex2" still in effect, or is that just for the threading part.

I.e. take a starting char w resonance 6 and stealth 6. They want to get inside the cameras of an executive suite fast, but they know if they set off any alert the jig is up. So first they whistle up a low level unregisterd sprite and then thread their stealth, getting 3 hits which they manage to soak easily with 10 die resisting. Then before they make their hacking on the fly run they call in a registered level 6 sprite, pass the thread sustaining off to the low level sprites, and have the big boy assist.

Is their effective stealth upon breaking in 12 (resx2) or 15 (CF rating+thread hits+ sprite)?

Can we post chunks of rules here? At any rate p233 is really very clear on the matter.

And I am inclined to agree that a threaded CF can't be taken over the 2x limit via an assist. So threading would be for when you need the skill to last a long time (like probing) or when you just want a boost without wasting sprite tasks.

And Dashifen is right about the little guy. You'd have to use a registered sprite to sustain.

Any comments on sprites coming along into isolated nodes? That's a pretty huge factor.

I've allowed it; it's roughly analogous to spirits using the "Metaplanar Shortcut" rules in Street Magic (p. 94) which allow a spirit to bypass mana barriers by jumping to the metaplanes and then back to the astral on the other side of the barrier as long as their summoner is on the other side of it too.

In other words, a sprite could jump from the general matrix to the Resonance Realm, whatever that is , and then back into a node within the matrix as long as the TM which has compiled it is within said node. Plus, this uses up a task.

the TM itself is a living persona. The sprites are linked to your persona. Therefore anything your connected to they can exist in (which is why they 'disappear' when you leave node that you told one to idle in).

Threading is a free action.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only person that has been playing a Technomancer like a summoner. Hey crack sprite go to town and find me an exploit to system A with admin rights. A few moments/hours later it returns with a valid exploit method. TM logs in using that exploit. Hey data sprite make me an account here, I'll assist! (just remember to bury it with stenography). Log out then log back in as a valid Admin just in time to cancel any alerts previously tripped. Then go about your business as a valid user.

Or at least thats how I do my hacking.

Actually I'm away from my book at the moment but I do believe it specifically says that sprites can persist in a system after you're gone if that's what you want them to do.

And I think TMs are supposed to be half summoners. I'd use sprites for data search (as I could whistle up a couple weak ones and not fade. And I'd use powerful registered sprites for cybercombat, which I'd rather avoid.

However with a crack sprite you have to summon up a powerful one most of the time. And that will get you faded. And since you probably aren't getting many successes you have to recast often.

And perhapse more importantly if you're hacking in on the fly others can't use your exploit I don't believe. It's even GM discretion if a probe found exploit can be saved up and used by another. That means while a crack spirit can bust in sometimes it won't have the range of skills needed to do stuff inside.

However I think the bottom line is that the fact TMs can't do everything isn't a problem, as they can use spirits. They just need to have certain abilities.

(also are you trying to say you can "assist" a sprite? I'm pretty sure they can't have threading or any other bonuses).

Well my GM ruled that I can use a crack sprite to exploit for me AS LONG AS I use this exploit in the round that the crack sprite finishes its tests. Its basically a twist on the probing over time (which a sprite can do for you) but with a very very short valid time for the exploit.

Sprites can persist outside of things you have connected if they are sent on a remote task. If its an unregistered sprite the remote task consumes all remaining tasks to perform this action.

What I mean by assisting a sprite. Typically a sprite has rating x2 in dice pool for most of its 'prefered' actions. Unless the TM has threaded out the wazoo the sprite will have more dice then the TM. So the sprite does the main action and the TM then follows the normal assist rules. Similar can be done for say Edit, Defuse, Decrypt. However there are some actions I dont feel would be appropriate such as Exploit since I dont feel assisting would work well with the supression power or rather it would be more complication to then figure out who triggered the alert since supression only works if the sprite triggers the alert.

Given that the book talks about loading a agent into ones persona and sprites being a cross between a spirit and a agent, i would expect that one could 'load' a sprite note the living persona...

I think there is a fundamental SR4 mechanic I am misunderstanding about stealth.

On the Fly, Mechanic A:
IC keep on rolling pilot rating+analyze until they obtain hits=stealth on a single roll only. If I had a rating 5 stealth and they only had 4 dice on this roll it would be impossible for them to detect me.
On the Fly, Mechanic B:
IC roll for an extended test with the threshold being my stealth. They roll each time until they pile up hits=stealth.

Which of these is right? Are they both wrong? How is this properly handled?

second one is the correct one.

I'm not so sure you can use stegonography that way. The point of it is hiding data so it can't be found. So when the system looks up your account...nothing.

Also if something hacks in on the fly it gets through, but doesn't get a passcode or anything (though probing usually does).

Still you could get in without hacking by using a rating 6 courier sprite with browse and exploit. It could hack in, find the security logs, and edit them to get you in. If the admin list is databombed you'd need to send the crack sprite in after all.

Actually given the exceptional ability of technomancers to communicate without interception with sprites they might be able to do what needs doing for you remotely.

If a courier does edit you in remember a couple things.

-if you log in as an authorised user if the system tries to disconnect you you just roll hacking not hacking+exploit. Meaning you're pretty much gone if the system wants you gone.

-patroling IC and more typically spiders may notice something fishy about you. For example the spider may know the guys who have admin access and you aren't one of them.

-some systems also require passkeys / RFIDs to get in. I suppose in many cases you could just tell the system that this account doesn't need one, but I'd work fast if I were you.

Still having your sprites hack for you isn't a bad idea at all. Works much better than with agents where you never know if the system detected them and is now using the intercept traffic rules to feed you garbage while a trace has already completed(which by the way, is what I have systems and spiders generally do if they would realistically have the software).

Question, and I want to say the answers out there I just can't find it. Can sprites be tracked back to the TM like an agent? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. They certainly have a data trail heading back to the TM (what all those images and files are going over).

I'm away from the book at the moment but I think the issue with the link isn't that it doesn't exist, it's that it can't be spoofed/edited because it's got a little bit of whatever that "resonance" stuff is, and the TM/sprite would notice if things didn't match up.

I don't think that it can't be sniffed. What I don't know is if you can track someone from something like that.

I.e lets say I know I've got a target that likes to make calls to a little island somewhere, and I happen to know that the island has one centralized node with a satalite uplink that provides service to the entire island. So I hack that node and sniff around until a call comes through. The target didn't visit the node I'm in par se. Their traffic is just being routed through it. Am I now able to use a track program on them? I'm thinking yes.

Is there something I missed in raw about resonance beings not being able to be tracked? Does that apply to TMs as well? If so that's a huge huge boost compared to being trackable.

Actually even if it is just that sprites are untrackable it's a massive thing. Usually the reason you can't just hack all the livelong day with agents is that something could go wrong and you get found in real life. Even if you run the agent off of a seperate node you eventually have to hook up with them and they could have been followed etc.

If sprites are immune to that it means you can hack remotly with sprites at zero real life risk. There is nothing that can go wrong aside from not getting whatever you were after and losing your sprite.

I guess even if the TM is trackable through the sprite connection they could still just send sprites out purely remotly. Since a sprite can't be hacked/spoofed there isn't any risk in that.

I guess maybe that means that TMs really are like mages in the physical world. The only way to deal with them is to have your own.

Can anyone back that up in the book? Especially for the TM themselves?

aha page 235

"Like agents, a sprite’s datatrail also connects back to the technomancer’s
datatrail."

Sure looks like they're traceable from that.