A player rerolled a character in our last game and now has a mage that is focusing on a few manipulation spells. Reading the description of Control Thoughts, I am left wondering if anyone else feels this might be too powerful.

I mean, what stops the mage (or makes it more difficult) from commanding anyone to shoot themselves in the face? I mean, many characters are going to have a tough time beating a magic + spellcasting test with just willpower and the fact that manipulation spells have such a long time between attempt to break it (combat turns equal to force)...

For example, a force 4 Control Thoughts is only 4S drain, and a mage with 8 dice going against a Will 4 opponent should likely get at least a single net hit...so with the opponent say, having 2 IPs, that is the mage telling him to shoot himself to 8 IPs before he gets to try and shake it off again...no one is going to survive that...

And it gets even worse with Mob Mind...

Consider if the mage had taken stunbolt instead. He'd be wasting 1 dude every action anyway.

Mind Control is indeed a very powerful spell, but it has certain limits. Targets get to resist. Targets will remember they were controlled - and will most definitely hold it against the character. It leaves signature.

Sorry for the distasteful comparison, but Control Though is like raping someone without a condom - you're leaving one very angry person with evidence the cops can use against you.

Roleplay-wise, mind rapists are probably not well thought of. Obviously, in the shadows, a large number won't give a shit what you do to people. But the character will probably meet some, other mages, or anyone with a conscience, who is going to find the character very, very distasteful, and it may cause problems for him.

True on the stunbolt, but maybe that is hypocritical of me, not being bothered by that...I agree, the mage may have a very bad rep because of mind raping, but so well about any runner that is murdering victims without too much remorse.

I thought I had read something stating that you couldn't force someone to do direct harm to oneself, or there would be some resistance if commanded to say, shoot your mother, but it seems like there is nothing. And even at a low force, the amount of combat turns to wait before trying to shake it off...that's a long time...

I do understand that the spell is not going to last a whole lot of time, and if the target survives, well, they are not going to be happy...but I could see a lot of mages using this kind of spell to not leave many alive...

We choose to ban it, it was too abusive.

Combine with Alter Memory for best results.

...I usually resort to high powered automatic weaponry targeted at the offending mage.

Actually I don't have a problem so much with control thoughts. I rule that the character still realizes they were being controlled afterwards, just that they are unable to do the willpower modifier during the spells effect.

Also I typically reserve the use of edge by NPC to situations where they would really be giving it their all. So if they're told to do something really bad they may pop out the edge.

Regardless of edge the play character doesn't know when the spell will wear off and when it does expect trouble. Plus it distracts the mage using it.

That being said the spell "influence" is a bit more of a pain. I'm a bit liberal in deciding what constitues "being confronted with the wrongness", probably to the point of going past raw.



Still there are many many ways to abuse the spells, and I don't generally like them.

Regardless however people in the sixth world are very aware of the LOS requirments for all spells. Notice how due to guns security enclosements use bulletproof glass instead of simple bars? Same thing with magic. Whenever possible security personel are looking through cameras and the like as opposed to looking out of windows, especially two way windows.

And security vehicles never EVER

EVER

have their drivers or passengers visible. And due to sniper rifles when possible the riggers aren't even in front of windows.

That sounds about right for an armored limo. Remember control thoughts typically only lasts for about a minute, but I'm guessing that was plenty of time.

I remember a passge somewhere in a book, possibly an SR2 book, that stated that cars had tinted windows because people were mage-conscious.

Well, that's a detail the the Control Thought issue though.

IMO, using Control Thought as a combat spell, whereas you either turn the guy against his friends or force him to incapacitate himself, is a powerful effect, but other combat spells are potentially more deadly.

CT is powerful when it comes down to coercing people into helping you. But then, you are faced with a decision - if you don't kill them, they WILL hate you and report you (to someone.. cops, their boss, whatever).

If you have to go around killing everyone you need info from, you aren't going to do very well on the long run. Good old fashio social skills to convince people to help you work much better.

You know, I personally I believe that Mind Rapists would be considered the lowest of the low and never trusted for one simple reason, how do you know that he hasn't mind raped you?

Because in the very least, if a fellow Runner betrays you, assuming that you survive then you can enact revenge, but with a Mind Rapist you might never know so its better to geek him now instead of taking the chance.

... Yeah I understand that rules-wise Alter Memory isn't permentant, but considering that almost everybody gets their idea of what magic can and can not do from 'Karl Combat-Mage' its a safe bet that the non-magical crowd won't know that.

And besides, even if they do realize what Alter Memory is and is not capable of the spell is still long term enough to be effectively permentant with some upkeep.

How to make Control Thoughts less influential:

1. Have investigators assense the signature so they can identify the caster astrally
2. Have enemy mages use Dispelling to remove the Control Thoughts
3. Make sure the controlling mage has to spend an action to control the target. That turns it into a 2-pass kill... one to cast and one to command.
4. Wards. They're free to make and allow bullets to pass riiiight through.
5. Guardian/Guidance/Plant spirits can all Counterspell and Dispel. They make mages cringe en masse.
6. Astral Static spells limit hits and add to drain via their Background Count. Sometimes its better to turn all mages 'off' than to exchange blows.
7. Mob Mind your henchman. If they are then Mob Minded again its a GM call how to handle it but at a minimum it allows a mage to do nothing but repeat "Minions, stick to the plan I made!" in order to counteract previous orders. Based on houserules this might even allow a higher force casting to negate lower force castings but thats not canon AFAIK.
8. Control Thoughts the enemy Mind Controller. Spend Edge, etc., then make him your little buddy and turn him on his fellows.

Lastly, an opposing thought... Decrease Willpower synergizes the very very best with Control thoughts. It gives them one die (if you cast well enough) to negate the Control Thoughts which in effect extends the duration.

IMO Control Thoughts/Mob Mind are powergaming spells best suited to small groups of players in grave danger, not 8-10 man shadowruns.

Hope that helps!

A good alternative if you think they are too powerfull.

1) Require a theshold equal to the subjects Willpower.

Makes it far more likely to be resisted (and if it lands, last correspondingly shorter period).


2) If the sbuejct (as a complex action gets a chance to resist every force combat turns), Then rule that is at the 'start'.

So actions would be like this:


Turn ! Phase 1:

Mage A Control Thoughts Driver of Limo. Suceeds with X net hits.


Limo Driver spends his complex Action on resisting mental domination.

Turn 1 Phase 2+

Mage A could use a simple action to tell person to do something.

Limo Driver (unlikely to have multiple initiate passes can do anything).

Turn 2 Phase 1:

If mage hasnt before, Mage could use simple action to give a order.


Limo Driver: Does what ever mage orders.


So the mage has to wait atleast a pass, pssibliy a full turn before the 'intructed' action could take place. This gives a chance for others to notice / disrupt / take actions before something is done.


3) While the spell can be 'sustained' without LOS, I belive orders would require LOS (and potentially LOS to what ever needed to be done).

The first precednce would be Area Effect sustained spells. While they can be sustained from anywhere. To 'move' them (or change them) they require LOS. I would think giving orders would be much the same way.

Likewise.

The order "Open the window" I would think they caster would need to see how to open the window. (If the caster "directs everything the target does", I would think "open window' would work, but rather "reach your hand out press the little buttton X on side console until window is up" would be required, unless they caster knows 'how' to open window they couldnt direct everything necessary to open window.





Any of those three (or all three) would begin to limit Control Action / Thoughts if you have a problem with them.

Well, I think they "can" be too powerful...I suppose that can be debatable, but based on RAW, its awfully easy to command someone to "kill yourself" when no counterspelling is active. I suppose that anyone as a target would be using edge on that test by default, as I don't know of many that would ever want to lose control of their thoughts/actions.

I feel that most runners in a group with someone with this spell, could feel just as save as their sammy running around with a tac-nuke in their back pocket...at least, that is how I am perceiving my group thinking. But I don't want to just get rid of the spell...it just seems it is so easy to abuse these spells...I don't know.

I do like your suggestion of using a threshold...that would make it more fair, IMO. I'm still thinking about stuff here...and I am also thinking that the issue I have end up being with the player...but seeing that the spell is so open to abuse, I'd figure there would have been more GMs having issues with it...

One of my players powergames alot and mind control is his biggest tool.

What I have found which works well is Riggers.

If they spot that several guards stop fighting and lay down on the ground, they start going mage hunting.

Yeah, I guess I am not so worried about NPCs.

I think that is why I am coming to the point of thinking it really is a player issue, because the group is wondering "what if" this mage turns at one of them. They see that they really have no defense against him, even those with good Willpower, and in less than a combat turn, they can be forced to fire four rounds at themselves...that's just not cool...

That's fine. Let the players worry. As was being said, this is one of the repercussions of mind raping people left and right. People don't trust you. They fear you. And when People With Guns fear something, they usually shoot it dead. Let the mage learn that lesson. Seems perfectly reasonnable to me, and very much in-character.

Hell, I would even have NPCs whispering in the other PCs ears "what if he turns on you... you gotta be ready... strike first....". I'd totally encourage that kind of distrust.

I actually haven't had problems with mind control. The group's mage took Control Thoughts during chargen, and he's had a couple of significant successes using it. Most of the time when he's used it, it wasn't a big deal. A couple of times he used it, failed, and then got thrashed by the drain. It's actually been pretty balanced. He's scared to try to use it on anyone really important, because he knows they'll have magical defenses. He mostly uses it on mooks to cause extra chaos.

the problem with pc's attacking other pc's is that shadowrun is a deadly game, and no one likes having their character killed, esp. if that character has been around for a awhile.
My last session (I was a player) started with this kind of fight between new players and old, needless to say the newbies were outgunned and nearly got killed (though technically they probably geeked one of the mages, the gm didn't notice. and things did not go well for the entire session when we were supposed to work together afterwards.

on a different note, I as a gm once tried a session where the pc's were up against a team of shadowrunners who were those same players retired characters. that one was interesting, but the new pc's were' really experienced enough yet, so I had to fudge some dice rolls. That was back in SR3, and the k pools were just too different.

oh yeah I forgot. The way we dealt with mind control spells was to eliminate them from the game, but compulsion power for critters was still allowed.
Too much trouble to really go through all the steps of adding extra reasons that people might be able to shake off the spell, just get rid of it.
Most of my mages don't know how to use a gun.
"gun, yeah I got a gun, it's called powerbolt." "Say hello to my leeeetle freind" said as a spirit engulfs the target.

Isn't this why every good shadowrunnner knows to geek the mage first?

Don't elemintate mind control.

If you feel the are too powerful an a theshold equal to the targets willpower..

Immediately taking off 2-6 sucesses means:

1) Higher force is required to get enough hits (to beat willpower AFTER resitance test (for most).

2) 'Strong willed' indviduals are much harder to control / dominate.


Weakens then significantly without totally removing them.

Mind you, with the current mage, there has not been an "turning on PCs", but fear of that. Everyone is taking a look at their characters and re-reading the rules to see if anyone is missing something, as no one things it should be this easy for a mage to take control of a person...but it is appearing to be that it is this easy.

I agree with you, Wiseman...I will certainly be talking to our mage about this prospect, letting him know how dangerous this fire is that he seems to want to play with. He already agreed that if I wanted to ban it, that he is fine with that, but as I mentioned above, I'd rather not ban it, I'd rather he not "want" to use it on other PCs that are suppose to be working as a team...

We'll just have to see. I know that no one in the group is afraid to take the mage out on a whim...its just that I am not used to running groups where one player is okay with turning on his own team. I mean, I've played characters that would mess with a player on occaision, but it was in the spirit of the game...

PCs mind-raping each other is significantly more acceptable then PCs physically raping each other in most games. It is, as has been stated, equal to any other antagonistic action and it depends very much on the style of game that your goign for. SOme people like PC antagonism.

Yes, spells that work on NPCs do work on PCs, as well. Mind control is not the problem when it comes to PC interactions. Social skill tests are the problem, particularly the inappropriate use of them. I'd be far less concerned about the mage makign the Samurai commit suicide than I would be about the Pronomancer turning the Samurai gay using improperly implemented social skills.

alright pay three little wizkids ten nuyen each to put a ward inside your skull so you can't be messed with like that

I don't know why but I can't stop laughing at this. In one way it would be worth it..but in so many ways...just no.

It could get knocked loose depending on activity and possibly even lifestyle choices.