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Omae
Ok, my question is how is it for elves to build a nation, which happened in 2034 and 2035, when oldest elf at that time might be around 23 and 24 years old.
And also how do elves age? Book said they can live up to several hundred years. Are elves physically aging? or do they stop aging or very slow, like may be 10 years of elven life is equal to 1 years of human life (well physical aging only).
Any thought?
coolgrafix
Trick here is there are two types of elves: 1) Immortal Elves who were chosen to serve the various dragons at some point thousands of years ago and 2) Shmuck Elves who were born in the 21st century. The VAST majority of elves are just shmucks.

Read more, but not a whole lot more, here.
Omae
So... somehow those Immortal Elves were hidden during the 5th world and when magic returned in 6th, they showed up again? And lead those common elves to build nation? hmm.. makes sense, although how did they manage to survive 5th w/o being discovered is going to be new question...
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Omae)
hmm.. makes sense, although how did they manage to survive 5th w/o being discovered is going to be new question...

Didn't you ever see Star Trek IV?
Headbands, duh. cool.gif
Omae
Actually... No i did not see Star Trak IV
coolgrafix
QUOTE (Omae)
So... somehow those Immortal Elves were hidden during the 5th world and when magic returned in 6th, they showed up again? And lead those common elves to build nation? hmm.. makes sense, although how did they manage to survive 5th w/o being discovered is going to be new question...

Not hidden. Just inconspicuous. Note the Renaissance-era duel between Harlequin and Ehran?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Omae)
Actually... No i did not see Star Trak IV

You totally should. It's an even numbered Star Trek flick and worthy of attention.

The Elven nations had powerful magical backing and an entire youth movement of people who had all never known a world where magic did not exist. So it was relatively easy for them to create magnet countries that drew in Elves from around the region and the world.

Although if you think about it: Tairngire, na nOg, Zulu Azania - these aren't super high rent areas by any means. In fact, they are kind of the ass end of Europe, Africa, and North America (Ireland, Oregon, and Rhodesia).

---

Basically, the founding of each nation is very similar to that of Israel. You get some powerful military and economic backers and a meme that gets people who don't share much in common with one another to move half-way across the world to found a nation together and you can take over some small and shitty part of the world and keep a hold on it as long as you're willing to militarize the crap out of your imported population.

It's Elves instead of Jews, but that's a good thing - there are more Elves than Jews. And Israel is more populous than all three Elven nations together. If anything, I think that the magical backers played their card too early and it blew up in their faces badly. Had they managed to make a big Elven Exodus in the 2070s when Elves were already established in society and comfortable with themselves and raising familiies they probably could have taken over something decent like the Northern California or the United Provinces of the Netherlands or something.

As is they carved out economically insolvent kingdoms in the ass corners of the world and pretty much poiusoned the well as far as creating racially Elven societies. All together they have about 8 million people living in all three nations, and the world population of Elves is 89 times that. The entire bid for control of the Elvish people was a complete fiasco.

-Frank
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Omae)
Ok, my question is how is it for elves to build a nation, which happened in 2034 and 2035, when oldest elf at that time might be around 23 and 24 years old.
And also how do elves age? Book said they can live up to several hundred years. Are elves physically aging? or do they stop aging or very slow, like may be 10 years of elven life is equal to 1 years of human life (well physical aging only).
Any thought?

Elves age physically at about same rate as humans do until adulthood when the aging process virtually stops. Medical experts only theorize elves could live centuries based off how the first generation elves have aged.
Backgammon
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Had they managed to make a big Elven Exodus in the 2070s when Elves were already established in society and comfortable with themselves and raising familiies they probably could have taken over something decent like the Northern California or the United Provinces of the Netherlands or something.

Well, they were mostly playing the "escape from persecution" card back in the days when metahuman had first appeared and scared the shit out of everyone, as well as giving a new sense of identity to people had had none.

Nowadays, minus continuing low-level racism, elves probably wouldn't want to leave their jobs and homes to migrate to a newly established elven nation. Some, sure, but I don't think it would lead to significantly more elves migrating.
Kyoto Kid
...makes sense.

In the UK Elves make up a significant percentage of the nobility and some had worked themselves into positions of power (at least prior to the '64 crash). Why give up everything you worked for to start all over again in some backwater start-up nation?

...unless you're some racial purist or something like that. But as in the case of the TT, we have seen where that has gone.
Ancient History
Don't forget Manitou, Sinsearach, Snowdonia, and Pomoyra! nyahnyah.gif
Adarael
And there's another problem. Like Backgammon says, the "escape from persecution" card is very important for forging a national identity out of disparate local identities. Imagine this. You, the reader, has a child or children. You raise them in your community, they go to schools where you live, they absorb the social norms of that area and adapt.

And when they're around 20-25, someone says, "Come and join my nation! This is where you belong! This is your identity!" How likely is it that your kids will spontaneously identify with this foreign, as-yet-unformed nation INSTEAD of other americans, germans, portugese, etc? It's likely they'd be interested, but unless there are other factors that would lead said child to seriously question their identity or rebel against their parents, it's doubtful they would do anything other than experiment with it.

Look at it this way. Do american born-and-raised kids who are ethnically chinese, russian, japanese, etc identify more with Russia, China, and Japan or where they grew up? In my experience, the answer is uniformly that they are curious about their historical culture, but are completely products of the nation they grew up in, unless their parents raise them not to be. Hell, my "chinese" friend Steph is more american than most americans I know. To put it another way... Would you feel more connection to your culture, right now, or a group of people who had similar birthmarks? Similar eyecolor?

The formation of the elven nations HAD to hinge on fear of persecution, feelings of lost community, and alienation. If they'd waited, more and more elves would consider themselves (interally) to be UCAS/British/South African citizens, and not alienated or displaced people. Physical attributes do not a national identity make.
Spike
I know next to nothing about Zulu Azania/Rhodesia other than general geographic location but:

Oregon and Ireland as 'ass ends of nowhere/low rent places'?

Frank, I live an hour north of Portland, I assure you that Oregon is not the ass end of anywhere.

That would be... say, Oklahoma, where they put up all those Indian reservations way back in the day. Or the Dakotas... not a lot of folks moving to the Dakotas for the scenery (which is, by the way, gorgeous if a bit stark...)


Ditto Ireland. Sure, the Irish aren't well liked by some folks, and when Shadowrun came out they weren't exactly economic powerhouses... but sweet jeebus, man, everyone seems to agree that Ireland is a beautiful country, and a huge number of Americans seems to have a serious fetish for Aulde Eire....

Ass End my Ass end. ohplease.gif
coolgrafix
Yes, an otherwise informative post from Frank had to drop that little nugget midway through. I chose to overlook it and assume that it was poorly/quickly considered or that Frank is ill-informed. I think he was stretching it to suggest that no one really cared if those areas were seized.
Adarael
Someone always cares.
No matter where it is, it's always somebody's home.
Alexandru
To defend Frank, I think the comments were meant on a economical/industrial scale, as a comparison for Israel.

Oregon, is nice but its not a economic powerhouse like California. Ditto for Ireland(last few years they are growing tremendously). It matches the idea of Elves being like Israel, taking over a shitty area and building it into a nation.
Spike
I could point out that half or more of the reason Isreal has survived as a nation is the fact that their economy is almost entirely based on wealth pouring in from a bigger 'Patron' nation... namely the US.

For some strange reason I doubt the three Elvish nations Frank mentioned are recivecing billions of Nuyen from other nations to prop up their economies.

Having avoided the two Tir books like the plague, I can't speak as to what the designers said about the economics of the nations, but I suspect they are composed of handwavium. Maybe Dragons Did It.
coolgrafix
If the numbers he mentions are accurate, it's exceptionally likely that they do receive a great amount of aid from Elves in the diaspora. I own but haven't ready (shame on me) the Tir books. Perhaps some reading is in order.
Adarael
In defense of the Tirs in their initial incarnation...
1) They were financed by the finances squirreled away by both immortals and dragons. That's a whole lotta cash, especially if invested smartly.
2) Tir Tairngire's closed economy eventually collapsed for just that reason. In the 6th world, there's only so long you can isolate yourself that much and not have it bite you in uncomfortable places.
mfb
given the general level of animosity between IEs and GDs, dragons probably didn't do it. but elves might've. the oldest have been around for thousands and thousands of years--plenty of time to plan and save up massive amounts of cash and investments and land, not to mention making the right friends and saving up the right favors. they knew when the Awakening would come, and they probably had a good idea of how it would unfold. the Tirs and Azania are funded by wealthy patrons--themselves.
WhiskeyMac
Oregon and Ireland are ass-ends of the world! I'm Irish and I was born in Oregon. That explains a lot then.

Having read both Tir books and remembering a little of it, both nations were formed around fear and upheaval.

Tir na nOg was formed suddenly on Christmas Day (I think) with the reason that the elves were reclaiming their birth home or something similar to that.

Tir Tairngire was formed by Ehran the Scribe (as some other guy) and several other Immortal Elves to mimic a nation they had in the 4th world (maybe, not to sure on that). TT was formed during the time of upheaval where the good ol' US of A was being balkanized out to the Native Americans and basically appealed to everyone who was outcast and wanted a "real" nation to be a part of. Originally every race was accepted but mostly metahumans and mostly elves.

The funny part is that even though both Tirs were created by elves, they hate each other. Tir na nOg considers Tir Tairngire "misguided children" and Tir Tairngire considers Tir na nOg "elitist assholes". It's rather funny actually.
Tiger Eyes
I think for Oregon, at least, one reason to pick it was the higher level of magic and higher percentage of elven kids born in the area, according to sourcebooks. I think the IEs had something other than the landscape and exceptional vineyards in mind. As for economy, they did pick a country with self-sufficient hydro-electrical sources, plenty of clean water and a strong agriculture base (and great wine-country, did I mention that?), ocean access and developed port, temperate climate and few natural disasters, significant amount of telesma... perfect for their isolated ideals. Go for California and you'll be stuck begging for water, electricity and looking cross-eyed at the Japanese and Azzies.

Sheese, you'd think some people here figure we still live in covered wagons!!! sarcastic.gif
Ancient History
QUOTE (Spike)
Having avoided the two Tir books like the plague, I can't speak as to what the designers said about the economics of the nations, but I suspect they are composed of handwavium. Maybe Dragons Did It.

Pardon me if I feel disinclined to lend much weight to someone who dismisses material pertinent to the discussion at hand when they haven't read it.

Anywho...it's important to realize that none of the major Elven nations have imploded due to their economy going down the shitter just yet. There's been some turnover in Tir Tairngire and some turmoil in Tir na nOg, but that's just the shine coming off of the fact that these nations managed to survive for decades without showing significant economic distress.

I like to think part of the problem with the Two Tirs is that the high-level uppity-shmucks fell into the old drug czar/dictator mentality, where the good of the nation was placed after their personal well being. That and the pack mentality. Ignorant posts aside, dragons did have a hand in Tir Tairngire, and I don't doubt that the presence of a Great Dragon on the Council of Princes helped to unify the Elven interests together. This is fairly noticeable because things started going to shite around the time he left. Tir na nOg is rabidly anti-dragon, but they managed enough mojo to raise the Veil (something their country bumpkin cousins in Tir Tairngire were still fiddling with), and might have an alliance, or at least contact, with one or more races of the Fae.

The minor elven nations are a touch more mysterious. Snowdonia obviously derives a degree of financial independence from its orichalcum mines, but also to discrete ties with Tir na nOg and the Welsh great dragons. Pomoyra and the Sinsearach are hinted to have discrete relations with their fellows (granted, this might be little more than Harlequin's commcode and an instruction to the effect that calling him for every toxic spirit is grounds for immediate disintegration, but I digress). The Manitou appear to be on their own, but the timing is fortuitous-a new Awakened state in North America just as Tir Tairngire is starting to crack? Hmm.
FrankTrollman
Heh. Yes, Portland is one of my favorite cities, but think about this in terms of geopolitics: how much does Oregon produce that is of strategic value?

Montana is (and I know this is going to piss some people off as well), a really unpleasant place to be. You can't throw a rock without having it hit the ground and eventually roll to a stop. But even it has some really big mines that are important to the nation as a whole. Kansas or Iowa may be dreadfully boring but there's never been a world empire that didn't have a huge production of grain - and there's a reason for that.

Oregon hosts the headquarters of some major corporations, most notably Nike, but compared to the biggest corporations in the State to the North (Microsoft), or the South (Chevron) it's chump change. Chevron seriously makes 153 times as much money as Nike does (200 billion a year in profits instead of 1.3 billion a year).

If you were going to lose a province on the West Coast, you'd lose Oregon if you had the chance. Not because Powell's Books isn't a super awesome place - but because the net income of the adjacent coastal provinces is seriously hundreds of times larger than that of Oregon.

---

That's how people make decisions about whether to fight for specific areas. Ireland has less Irish people than New York City, and if the Irish were forced to make a stand for the entire island of Ire or the island of Manhattan they would be suckers to choose the latter.

Every place, every rock, every stream has value. But the cold hard cash value of some places is much much larger than others. There are places that make so much money that conquering them will make you richer. There are places that produce so little of marketable value that actually administering them will impoverish your empire.

Conquering, administering, and pacifying Oregon ultimately impoverished the Elven Cabal who did it. This would not have been a problem had they taken over some cash cow region like the Rhine Province, but then there's no way that they could have conquered such a region with the forces that they had. Larger empires would have fought them harder for it and they would not have had anything at all.

The lesson for today is that if you invade Comgo, the world community probably condemns you but it doesn't do anything about it. If you invade Elsace, the powers of Europe start plotting your death in a very active way.

-Frank
Spike
QUOTE (Ancient History)

Pardon me if I feel disinclined to lend much weight to someone who dismisses material pertinent to the discussion at hand when they haven't read it.

You might guess at the cause of my disdain for those books when I tell you that I think all powerful Great Dragons and millenia old 'Immortal Elves' are, to me, the actual Worst.Thing.Evah! for Shadowrun. The stink off that proverbial pile of dung was powerful enough to keep me from game stores while those books were still fresh.

So to speak.

You might think a bit differently, but that's your call.


I like elves, sure. Favorite non-human race to play and all that, but the cooler-than-thou ubernation attitude many people had about the TT in the early days, the magically impenetrable borders and oodles of 'mystic secret coolness' just irritates the bejeebus out of me.

I swear I've had GM's that would go

'Oh, you planning a border crossing in Tir? Well, as you guys bring up the notion, Tir commando's break down your door and brainwash you all. No, don't roll, these guys are too Uber for you to beat, you are all stunned/dead/whatevered... on, oh... initiative count 80 or so...'

Yeah. I'll bite on Shasta before I give any respect at all to these 'Major Elven nations'. that cropped up like fleas.
Tiger Eyes
Which is why California got carved up like a Thankgiving turkey and Seattle is a well-polluted blister in the NAN. Everyone wanted them. Pick a good-sized chunk of real-estate that everyone else is overlooking and no one is going to fight you for it until after you've made yourself a nation. There aren't many places in NA that can be isolated so well as the Pacific NW.

But again, I think the locations have less to do with economics and more to do with mana levels... might have helped if one or more of the Princes had an economics degree that didn't involve feudal overlords. Probably hard to shake off the habits of the last few millenium. wink.gif
mfb
the Tir books definitely were, um, enthusiastic in their presentation of elves. it wasn't so much power creep as power stampede.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Spike)
You might guess at the cause of my disdain for those books when I tell you that I think all powerful Great Dragons and millenia old 'Immortal Elves' are, to me, the actual Worst.Thing.Evah! for Shadowrun. The stink off that proverbial pile of dung was powerful enough to keep me from game stores while those books were still fresh.

So to speak.

You might think a bit differently, but that's your call.

You are welcome to your opinion. Most importantly, you're welcome to keep your opinion to yourself because some of us are tired of hearing it. If you would like to bitch about immortal elves, please go and start a new topic "Bitchings About Immortal Elves (And Great Dragons)." I have little doubt it will be a crowd pleaser-and hey! You'd be on topic.

The great thing about looking back on these sourcebooks, having read them and those that followed, is the perspective you gain. For example, just because the Two Tirs were presented as complete and impenetrable badasses by the Powers-That-Wuz doesn't mean they were, or more especially, are. It is important to realize that some of the material in every Shadowrun book comes from unreliable narrators, and gamemasters should realize the flexibility that gives them in their own campaigns.

"But FastJack said that they tandem-patrolled the North Woods with spirits and drones!"
"Yes he did. However, you don't see any. Maybe he was mistaken. Wrong. Senile. Doped up on meds at the retirement home."
"FastJack would never lie to me!"
"Keep telling yourself that. Your whining has, however, upset a group of wodewoses."
"Isn't this a bit too far north for woodwoses?"
"The tallest woodwose craps into his hand and throws it at you."

Sorry, sorry. Digression. Long story short: the Tirs are much more player-friendly now.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes)
Sheese, you'd think some people here figure we still live in covered wagons!!!  sarcastic.gif

...ESPN sure seems to think so... grinbig.gif

[edit]

Seriously, The demise of the TT was in part due to an economic policy, namely the move to go to isolationist after Dunkie's assassination. Without trade, the economy withered as primary goods and materials became scarce. Soon after a good portion of the TT "Haves' became "Have Nots". Not just the elven "Gentry" mind you but those from the lower and even middle strata of the "privileged" class. According to SoNA, by the time the Council reopened the borders, the economy was pretty much in shambles with most of the national corporations seriously on the ropes. Both Portland and Salem (which was outside the wall) experienced violent civil unrest. It comes as no surprise that several of the founding council members thought it wiser to jump ship before being caught in the undertow.
Adarael
AH is on the money here. Tir security, back in the day, was tight. But look at it compared to a AAA's security. Slightly behind - not by much, but still nothing a carefully planned run can't circumvent. It was like the iron curtain during the days of the USSR, except with much more patrollable borders. It's tough but doable.

Same goes for Tir Ghosts. They're no scarier than any other highly trained, well-equipped black ops team. They get played up as being the be-all end all, but remember - they have stats. One of my PCs had very good IC reasons to be terrified of dealing with them, even though I knew as a player that his 350 karma made the point somewhat moot as long as they didn't get the drop on him.
Abstruse
I thought I'd throw my two cents in and say that Ireland and Oregon weren't chosen for their economic status, but because they were there centuries ago. I can't remember the names of the countries from Earthdawn (that's AH's area of expertise...then again, so is what I'm posting frankly...), but the two elven nations from there were both in the same geographic locations as they are now.

And there were about a half dozen to a dozen immortal elves who have been awake and active for millennia building wealth and power (both political and magical) for EACH of the two countries just waiting for the Awakening so they could get their power back. And I don't care what civil wars have broken out in Tir Tairnegire, I promise you the same half dozen immortal elves are still pulling the strings.

The Abstruse One
HappyDaze
QUOTE
You are welcome to your opinion. Most importantly, you're welcome to keep your opinion to yourself because some of us are tired of hearing it.

Wow. You really are an AH. Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean he can't say it.

BTW, I too dislike the IEs. In my games they are not elves at all. They are powerful Free Spirits with Realistic Form that simply appear as elves. The Dragons I pretty much keep as is, but my 4th World was NOT Earthdawn (I dislike the connections they've made) and my 7th Wolrd will not be Battletech. nyahnyah.gif
Spike
The funny thing of it is, I am reasonably certain that this is the only time I've really posted my dislike of the whole 'Elven Nations of Doom' or Immortal Elves.

Tired of hearing it after one and a half posts? Man, that must limit your conversations a might.

nyahnyah.gif
Coren
The only things I don't really like about the Tirs is that I can't figure them out. Here you have this group of people who have been around for 5k years or so, seen empires fall, walked the streets of Rome, and probably helped knock down the Berlin Wall making every despot mistake in the book (and Lord knows that book is huge). It just seems like after spending multiple fortunes in nuyen.gif all they got for the deal was getting to be top dog for a couple decades. I just can't help thinking they must of gotten more out of it or started these countries for another reason because they really make no sense.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I thought I'd throw my two cents in and say that Ireland and Oregon weren't chosen for their economic status, but because they were there centuries ago. I can't remember the names of the countries from Earthdawn (that's AH's area of expertise...then again, so is what I'm posting frankly...), but the two elven nations from there were both in the same geographic locations as they are now.


Not particularly, no. The Blood Wood was located in Southern Belarus, and the Theran provincial capitol of Parlainth is in Kursk.

Almost all of Earthdawn stuff takes place in Eastern Europe. North America is barely mentioned - and certainly does not have the seat of the mighty Elven Nation.

-Frank
Ancient History
QUOTE (HappyDaze)
Wow. You really are an AH.

Yes. There is only one Ancient History, and I am he.

QUOTE
BTW, I too dislike the IEs.  In my games they are not elves at all.  They are powerful Free Spirits with Realistic Form that simply appear as elves.  The Dragons I pretty much keep as is, but my 4th World was NOT Earthdawn (I dislike the connections they've made) and my 7th Wolrd will not be Battletech. nyahnyah.gif

Where to start...it's Metahuman Form, there is no Realistic Form, and the next mana cycle was never slated to be Battletech (a few oddball conspiracy theorists aside). Though we do have our Toaster worshippers.

QUOTE
Tired of hearing it after one and a half posts?

Please don't take this personal, but you're not the first with the same gripe. There's even some legitimate concerns within the gripe. It is, however, an old gripe, which dates back to before the internet ('round about 1st Edition).

Back on topic a little...love 'em or hate 'em, very few games actually deal with IEs. Or the CEOs of AAA megacorps, or the Head of State of any given country, etcetra. Hell, as far as the runner on the street is concerned, the IEs might as well not exist. Just another trid legend, like JetBlack and Elvis on the mothership. You shouldn't let the IEs run your game. For the Tirs, the IEs are a powerful influence, but there are millions of other pointy-ears in the Elf Lands. Don't feel constrained by their personality types.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Where to start...it's Metahuman Form, there is no Realistic Form

My copy of Street Magic says you're wrong.

QUOTE
and the next mana cycle was never slated to be Battletech (a few oddball conspiracy theorists aside). Though we do have our Toaster worshippers.

You do realize that my Battletech line was a joke, right? The little smiley-with-tongue thing and all that...


Ancient History
QUOTE (HappyDaze)
QUOTE
Where to start...it's Metahuman Form, there is no Realistic Form

My copy of Street Magic says you're wrong.

Oops. Moment of Previous Edition Brain. So sorry.
Abstruse
Personally, I love the Harlequin adventure and have been dying to run it. I really like all the magical metaplot stuff. The techier stuff I could take or leave (which is odd since when I play, I tend to go for a decker...yes, DECKer, I haven't played 4th Ed yet) like Archology and Deus, but I totally love the IE and dragon stuff.

But that's why Shadowrun's so great. I can have my game and you can have yours. I can have my super-metaplot-based-epic-proportions-game and you can have your street-level-not-much-better-than-common-thugs game. I can have my magic-heavy-fighting-blood-mages-and-bug-spirits game and you can have your underworld-mafia-street-wars game.

The Abstruse One
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Ancient History)
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jun 8 2007, 02:10 AM)
QUOTE
Where to start...it's Metahuman Form, there is no Realistic Form

My copy of Street Magic says you're wrong.

Oops. Moment of Previous Edition Brain. So sorry.

Hey, I combined Metahuman Form, Infestation, Animal Form, and the Master Shedim flavor text into the Realistic Form power for a reason. The older versions were... overly complicated on that point.

nyahnyah.gif

-Frank
JongWK
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jun 7 2007, 10:54 PM)
Not particularly, no.  The Blood Wood was located in Southern Belarus, and the Theran provincial capitol of Parlainth is in Kursk.

Blood Wood, located in ancient Ukraine, was also known as Wyrm Wood.

There's a modern-day Wyrm Wood too, known to us as Chernobyl.

Food for thought.



EDIT: It appears that the actual facts differ, but I'll go with the gaming-friendly legend any day of the week when it comes to my campaign. grinbig.gif

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
-- The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962).
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Spike)


For some strange reason I doubt the three Elvish nations Frank mentioned are recivecing billions of Nuyen from other nations to prop up their economies.

Having avoided the two Tir books like the plague, I can't speak as to what the designers said about the economics of the nations, but I suspect they are composed of handwavium. Maybe Dragons Did It.

<<I could point out that half or more of the reason isreal has survived as a nation is the fact that their economy is almost entirely based on wealth pouring in from a bigger 'Patron' nation... namely the US. >>

Actually the US did not get heavily involved until the 1960's. Before that it was the French and the British that supported Isreal. Another factor is the incompetence of their adversaries. Their governments are corrupt as all hell, (one of the issues the US is facing in Iraq).


As to their economy, they've got tourism, and a viable defense industry (after the French and British left them high and dry, they don't trust anyone but themselves to their defense. They know US aid could be suspended at any point.
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