Alright, I got to vent for a second about the SR4 books.
1) FAQ's need to be updated more efficiently and regularly, there is tons of stuff posted on this board daily by some really bright individuals looking at game mechanics from a lot of angles. Lots of this stuff needs clarification and quite few hokey common sense questions made the FAQ while quite a few game breaking flaws still remain unanswered. It shouldn't be "wait for the next book" to fix what this book implied or didn't clarify. Each supplement should be self contained to some extent.
2) Speaking of waiting for the other books. Where the hell are the other books? At this rate it WILL BE 2070 by the time they come out and half the stuff in them will be laughable in reference and obsolete.
Overall I love the game's dynamics, concept, background, flavor, and more. But the mechanics and conceptual mechanics are at times incredibly confusing or downright contradictive.
For love of the brilliance of some of the concepts i've put up with the 200 lil bastard six siders sitting at the table, I've put up with the constant reading in 5 sections and page references that dance like a drunk russian at the circus. I've made lots of attempts at house ruling this or that unclear mechanic to make things smoother.
Just having a good product concept is nothing without follow-through and follow up. It wouldn't kill you guys to have some sort of Official Support Guy to rule on some of this stuff so we can get on with the game and fun rather than trying to do your jobs for you. Unless you intend to contract us to do so. Now go dream up some more good shit and quit dotting your T's and crossing your I's
Oh and thanks for all the hard work so far, where it's well defined it runs great and is a blast to play.
Me = Happy Gamer + Disgruntled Gamemaster
Full Version: The Ad Hoc GM
its supposed to be vague, and not as defined as SR3...they did that on purpose
I hate to sound rude but...wah. I don't like Shadowrun 4th Edition because it's TOO simple and the mechanics are TOO basic. I prefer the more intricate and complex 3rd Edition rules.
As to the updates of the website, there's a sticky thread up at the top detailing the change of company doing the developing of the game system from FanPro to Catalyst Game Labs. There's going to be some lag.
And double wah on delayed releases. A couple of years ago, we went damn near an entire year without a single sourcebook for 3rd Edition. It was due to printer errors and other miscellaneous problems. I think they're doing a much better job of staying on schedule now.
<old man voice> You young whippersnappers don't know what you got here you know? I remember back in my day, we had to roll TWO buckets of d6's! On a slanted table! AND we had to calculate dice pools AND target numbers! And we were GRATEFUL!!
The Abstruse One
As to the updates of the website, there's a sticky thread up at the top detailing the change of company doing the developing of the game system from FanPro to Catalyst Game Labs. There's going to be some lag.
And double wah on delayed releases. A couple of years ago, we went damn near an entire year without a single sourcebook for 3rd Edition. It was due to printer errors and other miscellaneous problems. I think they're doing a much better job of staying on schedule now.
<old man voice> You young whippersnappers don't know what you got here you know? I remember back in my day, we had to roll TWO buckets of d6's! On a slanted table! AND we had to calculate dice pools AND target numbers! And we were GRATEFUL!!
The Abstruse One
Semi-answers to your rambling:
Wizkids is currently selling (or licensing, whatever) SR to another company. This is why updates, as well as product outputting, have been slow. It should pick up in the next few months (see this thread for details)
There used to be a FAQ guy you could ask question to, who would answer as best he could (although unoffically, strictly speakin). AFAIK, that service is currently no longer available.
Wizkids is currently selling (or licensing, whatever) SR to another company. This is why updates, as well as product outputting, have been slow. It should pick up in the next few months (see this thread for details)
There used to be a FAQ guy you could ask question to, who would answer as best he could (although unoffically, strictly speakin). AFAIK, that service is currently no longer available.
...I will say that the fellow who handled the FAQ did a most excellent job of clarifying hazy areas of the rules and was very prompt to respond. He helped me with several major issues that cropped up during the campaign I was GMing at the time.
Many thanks FAQ Guy, you are missed.
Many thanks FAQ Guy, you are missed.
First off no need for flames. Its an opinion and a statement that at times game grinds to a halt because of yet another thing is confusing or undefined. I've got a book of house rules, a freaking book and most of the stuff isn't areas left "intentionally vague" its just inconsistent.
Overall I like the game and always have. I still own the second edition books so don't give me no whippersnapper comments, or rather you can give them but they're pretty unfounded on this end.
Truth is I admit it is a good bit of whining and rambling and theres no defending that. But hey I can bitch a little if I want (as clearly stated in the topic subtitle) so you knew what you were gonna get before you came in.
Overall I like the game and always have. I still own the second edition books so don't give me no whippersnapper comments, or rather you can give them but they're pretty unfounded on this end.
Truth is I admit it is a good bit of whining and rambling and theres no defending that. But hey I can bitch a little if I want (as clearly stated in the topic subtitle) so you knew what you were gonna get before you came in.
| QUOTE |
| Semi-answers to your rambling: Wizkids is currently selling (or licensing, whatever) SR to another company. This is why updates, as well as product outputting, have been slow. It should pick up in the next few months (see this thread for details) There used to be a FAQ guy you could ask question to, who would answer as best he could (although unoffically, strictly speakin). AFAIK, that service is currently no longer available. |
Actually those are some pretty decent answers to mostly bitching. I didn't know about the licensing issues and that would explain some delays. No surprise I want more faster (and cheaper too!) who doesn't, i'm a consumer.
But I think you hit the nail on the head about the FAQ guy. It'd be nice to have a company representative give an official clarification on some of the gross inconsistancies. I'm not talking about 90% of these posts. But a few major aspects of the game could be clarified with a few responses and saying "thats official". It'd make it easier on my games so players don't feel i'm arbitrarily ruling stuff just to be against them and I don't have to hear every 20 mins "show me where it says that". I don't mind playing the GM card every now and then, but played to often it just makes you appear to be playing favorites for reasons that aren't clear.
Cut me some slack though, I just wanted to vent and In the end I suppose it didn't really warrant a response, so thanks for those that took the time to.
This is one of the things that Fascists of the Coast has done relatively well. Star Wars d20 had a regular article (bi-weekly or so) where they would answer 10-12 FAQs. Of course, now they're coming out with the damn game for what, the 3rd time now? Ooh, "Saga Edition". Next is going to be "Gimme all your f-ing money or a shoot you in the face edition".
And Dragon Magazine has had official answers at the end of every issue. Again, probably 15-20 Q&A, generally all dealing with one or two themes or books. That is, until they pulled Dragon and Dungeon away from Paizo because they can't stand to see anyone else making money.
Official answers on a regular, frequent basis.
Of course none of that does anything for the cancer.
In other words, we miss you FAQ guy, and your help was always appreciated!
And Dragon Magazine has had official answers at the end of every issue. Again, probably 15-20 Q&A, generally all dealing with one or two themes or books. That is, until they pulled Dragon and Dungeon away from Paizo because they can't stand to see anyone else making money.
Official answers on a regular, frequent basis.
Of course none of that does anything for the cancer.
In other words, we miss you FAQ guy, and your help was always appreciated!
| QUOTE |
| This is one of the things that Fascists of the Coast has done relatively well. Star Wars d20 had a regular article (bi-weekly or so) where they would answer 10-12 FAQs. Of course, now they're coming out with the damn game for what, the 3rd time now? Ooh, "Saga Edition". Next is going to be "Gimme all your f-ing money or a shoot you in the face edition". |
You speak the truth there.
SR's concept kicks the nuts on just about every other game i've wasted decent money on (some of it was indecent) and Star Wars d20 had some serious issues as they would try to redesign as the movies came out.
I got my player's back (even if they sometimes don't think so), who's got my back? Seriously, some of you guys (avoid naming cause giving you bigger heads means you just want to put more headware in it) are pretty freaking imaginative and have helped me out tons on lots of rulings. But in the end my players want (in a few major issues) some official rulings and no matter what I decide sometimes they think i'm full of shit (and I hate admitting that its probably true...though it is)
That said we should probably do some FAQ around here from some of the threads that have gone by. Not stuff that's hotly contested. Just stuff where someone asked something and others pointed stuff out from RAW that helped.
For example the guy with problems with melee combat who didn't know about interception, disarming, or subduing combat. We could have a melee section.
For example the guy with problems with melee combat who didn't know about interception, disarming, or subduing combat. We could have a melee section.
| QUOTE |
| <old man voice> You young whippersnappers don't know what you got here you know? I remember back in my day, we had to roll TWO buckets of d6's! On a slanted table! AND we had to calculate dice pools AND target numbers! And we were GRATEFUL!! |
In hindsight that was pretty damn funny.
| QUOTE |
| That said we should probably do some FAQ around here from some of the threads that have gone by. Not stuff that's hotly contested. Just stuff where someone asked something and others pointed stuff out from RAW that helped. For example the guy with problems with melee combat who didn't know about interception, disarming, or subduing combat. We could have a melee section. |
Ya know, that was a hella lot more constructive than my post and I think its a great idea. From now on i'll just filter my posts through you for a sunny makeover.
Synner (and I) used to do some guides in threads for the matrix that people liked. Would it be enough to target different aspects of the game (like the melee example from sunnyside) and try to more guides? They were structured around a character taking actions and one of us acting as the GM who would make rules but also explain why those rulings were made. Search up "Idiot's Guide to the Matrix" and you'll see what I mean. Would that fill some of the void that the FAQs sometimes don't?
Would it be helpful to pimp my Shadowrun Resources page here?
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| Synner (and I) used to do some guides in threads for the matrix that people liked. Would it be enough to target different aspects of the game (like the melee example from sunnyside) and try to more guides? They were structured around a character taking actions and one of us acting as the GM who would make rules but also explain why those rulings were made. Search up "Idiot's Guide to the Matrix" and you'll see what I mean. Would that fill some of the void that the FAQs sometimes don't? |
Those threads were a great way of generating FAQs, but they weren't very good FAQs themselves. It's not a good reference if you have to wade through 20 pages of a thread to find the perfect answer to your question, even if it's there.
Oh, and nice pimping Aaron. Last game I started I had some new players, and I sent them a link to your page and said, basically, "Nobody ask me what to roll to punch somone in the face. I don't expect you to know every rule, but you're all responsible for knowing these cheat sheets."
Perhaps similar threads with a dedicated first post towards FAQs that are asked/answered within the thread with links to the posts that deal with the discussions? Plus, with some careful editing once a question is answered. the discussion on that question could be excised from the greater thread and copied to a different thread (or site) so that it would be more readily available for the future. I'd be both willing to help out in those threads and to archive and record the FAQs that are covered within. The downside is that these things may not be "official" as in coming from SR line developers, but we can always cite the books, official FAQs, and errata used in the discussions.
Not to bring another game system in the conversation, but the brief amount of time I had played Hero Systems, I frequented their board and the developer actually answered questions and gave rulings on a regular basis.
I think its easy enough for the FanPro (or whoever) team to put their heads together and give a ruling on some of the more "heated" gaps in the rules and be done with it. Those that want to debate, will still go on...those that wanted the official ruling would have that ammo for their gaming table...and as most GMs already do, if they don't "like" something, they'll just make their own house-rule!
I think its easy enough for the FanPro (or whoever) team to put their heads together and give a ruling on some of the more "heated" gaps in the rules and be done with it. Those that want to debate, will still go on...those that wanted the official ruling would have that ammo for their gaming table...and as most GMs already do, if they don't "like" something, they'll just make their own house-rule!
| QUOTE |
| Perhaps similar threads with a dedicated first post towards FAQs that are asked/answered within the thread with links to the posts that deal with the discussions? Plus, with some careful editing once a question is answered. the discussion on that question could be excised from the greater thread and copied to a different thread (or site) so that it would be more readily available for the future. I'd be both willing to help out in those threads and to archive and record the FAQs that are covered within. The downside is that these things may not be "official" as in coming from SR line developers, but we can always cite the books, official FAQs, and errata used in the discussions. |
True not official official, but official enough for most rulings as "commonly accepted" and moreso might be the basis of an actual official ruling later to be implemented in the FAQ's (and maybe even more frequently too).
I'm all for it. Like I said LOTS of great ideas and work-throughs (who goes around anymore) are suggested on this board all the time and then get washed away or are buried within the actual determining conversation. In fact their was lots of good designer information about wards presented in a Possession topic on the first page. Good luck for new gamers and players to know its in there.
Well, some of us know that its just a simple search to find that info...
I think that is why most of us suggest a search through the forums before asking a question...
I think that is why most of us suggest a search through the forums before asking a question...
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| Well, some of us know that its just a simple search to find that info... |
Yea for one particular topic. Not a compilation of ALL the major topics.
Do me a quick search for the last 10 greatest discussions ending in a generally agreed upon solution without having to read the entire disscusion.
Plus man have a heart, GM's will waste their time running down everything but players don't care to all that often. And some people fail at the internet.
Point is: Just because you can already do something doesn't mean an easier alternative isn't viable. Hell most entrepreneurs wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that. Me included.
Edit* - Removed
By the way deek that was not meant to be a personal attack and I get what your saying. (in re-reading my response it sounded pretty hostile so my apologies).
What I mean is that this forum aside, players can get a little miffed if you want them to look stuff up in the book. Some are really good at it, some are.....not.
Aaron's page is going to be a big help in that department and shame on me for not doing something like that sooner (though I know how much my screen is worth to me).
Having something like that for these forums is a great great thing and I'll be happy to do my part searching stuff as well.
What I mean is that this forum aside, players can get a little miffed if you want them to look stuff up in the book. Some are really good at it, some are.....not.
Aaron's page is going to be a big help in that department and shame on me for not doing something like that sooner (though I know how much my screen is worth to me).
Having something like that for these forums is a great great thing and I'll be happy to do my part searching stuff as well.
Getting someone in place to help with maintaining the FAQ/suggesting things that should be in the FAQ/researching answers has been discussed. It's a good idea, and if someone is *interested* in doing it, drop me a line at adamjury@catalystgamelabs.com and we'll keep you in mind.
| QUOTE |
| Getting someone in place to help with maintaining the FAQ/suggesting things that should be in the FAQ/researching answers has been discussed. It's a good idea, and if someone is *interested* in doing it, drop me a line at adamjury@catalystgamelabs.com and we'll keep you in mind. |
As I said I'd be happy to help but honestly I think some people have a much better grasp than I do most times and some have been here much longer. However that doesn't do any good if no one steps up and everyone felt that way. I'm going to submit, but I really hope a few of you guys do as well so they can make the best choice and not just an only choice.
| QUOTE (Wiseman) |
| By the way deek that was not meant to be a personal attack and I get what your saying. (in re-reading my response it sounded pretty hostile so my apologies). What I mean is that this forum aside, players can get a little miffed if you want them to look stuff up in the book. Some are really good at it, some are.....not. Aaron's page is going to be a big help in that department and shame on me for not doing something like that sooner (though I know how much my screen is worth to me). Having something like that for these forums is a great great thing and I'll be happy to do my part searching stuff as well. |
I didn't take it that way, and agree with you, actually, so no harm.
It would be beneficial for an "all-in-one" solution, no doubt.
I say we just have Frank do it 
We just gather round the table, roll some dice, swap stories and eventually someone just gets up and says "You GM tonight!" and points at someone at random. That's ad hoc GM for you.
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| I say we just have Frank do it |
I'd second and third that.
How about this - instead of posting it in the forum I think that it should be posted separately, still on dumpshock but not as a forum post.
I think that what we need is instead of another FAQ we have an annotated version of the fanpro FAQ. We use the forum as a way to discuss this FAQ but keep it separate. That way it doesn't change constantly and it should be easy to print.
Each section should have examples of play in it as well. Also have links to alternate rules for each section in that section. Maybe have a separate page for some common house rules for each part.
The moderators can keep it up and keep in touch with the game designers for clarifications. That way it won't be changed by every person that logs on.
I think that what we need is instead of another FAQ we have an annotated version of the fanpro FAQ. We use the forum as a way to discuss this FAQ but keep it separate. That way it doesn't change constantly and it should be easy to print.
Each section should have examples of play in it as well. Also have links to alternate rules for each section in that section. Maybe have a separate page for some common house rules for each part.
The moderators can keep it up and keep in touch with the game designers for clarifications. That way it won't be changed by every person that logs on.
Shadowrun Questions and Comments: Check the FAQ - if you don't find an answer there, email info@shadowrunrpg.com.
This is on the offical site so question is if you have a question why don't you just ask?
I do all the time heck I think they may even be getting tired of me asking who knows what I do know is they respond with answers fairly quickly.
I have 4 pages of answers from Rob Boyle printed off that stay with my main book.
This is on the offical site so question is if you have a question why don't you just ask?
I do all the time heck I think they may even be getting tired of me asking who knows what I do know is they respond with answers fairly quickly.
I have 4 pages of answers from Rob Boyle printed off that stay with my main book.
we could also collect together all the clarifications that ROb has made for people together as well.
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