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draglikepull
I'm going to be GMing for the first time with some players who've played either very little or no Shadowrun before. Two things have come up that we can't quite seem to figure out.

1. What are the drawbacks to having a SIN? We know it "makes you easier to track", but how specifically? You could have a real SIN and use a fake one for anything potentially illegal, couldn't you?

2. What do PCs use the nuyen that they gain from adventures for, other than lifestyle and the costs of completing the adventure (such as bribes)? Most of the equipment in the game seems fairly inexpensive. Is there any real benefit to doing runs that make a lot of money? Is the purpose to save up enough money that the 'Runner can afford to retire?
Slump
The second question is alot easier to field, so I'll take that one.

What do runners do with all that money... Well, it's really up to the player. Some want to upgrade all their stuff and aquire vast quantities of swag, some save up for retirement, and some use it to support their background (sick relative, paying off large and dangerous debts, ect).

My favorite character (an infiltration specialist) used his loot to pay for extensive and extreme defensive measures for his various hideouts and safehouses. Paranoia was his specialty.
hobgoblin
About the sin: the problem of the real one is that you cant throw it away so to speak. And there is a chance that it will show up when prints, dna or similar is checked.
kzt
1) I've never really understood why SR puts any emphasis on this. Logically, the first decent fake SIN that allows you to act freely is the same thing as a real SIN, and you'll never be able to get another. It has your real biometrics, it's accepted by the 'government' because it's in their data bases. And hence it's shared with GSINR. There is no logical reason why either the issuing authority or the GSINR would ever delete this, and it's really hard to change these sorts of database records once created. Dead people using IDs are extremely interesting to security types, as are people who are recorded by another ID with the same biometrics, so they really want to never delete anything. I suppose you could request and attend a public hearing to dispute the accuracy. . . .

So you either you are totally SINless and maybe have IDs that can usually allow you to buy a hotdog at the stuffer shack without the clerk interrogating you (but no bank will deal with you, the cops will know it's a fake, etc) or you have an ID that is accepted without many question but is really "you" for just about any purpose.

We've generally been legitimate citizens using low grade fake IDs for trivial purposes and going black market for nasty stuff. Or we've been a security firm who can buy the nasty stuff over the counter and carry it around.


2) We've done various things in various campaigns. We've bought property (an abandoned thermal power station out on the lave flows IIRC), bought fancy vehicles, spurged on fancy vacations, bough clever and expensive stuff for the SO/BF/GF, ransomed people, and bought expensive gear. And retired. Lots of things.
Crusufix
1) The issue with a real SIN is the fact that it tracks your past. Anytime you're biometrics are scanned there is a chance that your fake SIN isn't good enough, it detects it as a fake SIN then brings up your real SIN. Now they have all of your past AND everything on the fake SIN. Now they know who your sister is, who your parents are, your real medical history, what books you like to read, what skills you have, what trids you use to watch, etc. etc.

Someone gets their hands on this real SIN and they can cause a lot of troubles for you. They can find out that you are allergic to peanuts. They can find out that you have an illegitimate child from your sweet 16 party. They can find out that your father was a Humanis Policlub member and that your goblinized at puberty and he hid this from his fellow club members.

ID and SIN are the exact same thing, no one asks for ID anymore, they ask for your SIN. You don't flash a drivers license at that Lonestar that pulled you over, he scans your SIN. He's probably done it long before he's even approached the car. Unless your operating in hidden or privacy mode. At which point he's approaching the car to ask you to open up your comm so that he can scan your SIN and check your biometrics to confirm a valid SIN, hell he may even just ask you to do that over the loudspeaker from the safety of the car.

Basically Real SIN bad, because even if you are using a fake SIN now. Your real SIN holds all the things you did before you got a fake SIN.

Another thing I'm not too sure about though is how easy is it to swap between SINs? Is it as simple as reporgramming your comm to report the fake SIN then later you can reprogram it to report your real SIN? Wouldn't simple sanity checks on the SIN DB notice several SINs with the EXACT same biometrics data? Meaning you can never have two active SINs at the same time.

I've always been under the impression that to change to a new SIN you had to have the old one destroyed. So to use a fake SIN you have to have had your real SIN deleted or otherwise made obsolete. You can't really use SIN A for buying your theatre tickets, then using SIN B for picking up that pack of smokes, then using SIN A for paying for your trid subscription. Once you switch to SIN B, SIN A becomes useless.

I could be very wrong in this thinking though.

2) Nuyen is Nuyen, commonly used for upgrading cyber, spells, lodges, libraries, pimping out your vehicle, paying those bribes, buying that SOTA rifle that just hit the market, saving up for that million dollar banshee, etc etc. It's what makes the world go round.
Sterling
1. A real SIN is trouble. A shadowrunner can use and discard a fake SIN whenever he or she wishes, so any trouble that SIN has associated with it is gone. If I, as a runner, get tracked breaking into an Ares facility and 'borrowing' a couple crates of Ares Alpha rifles, Ares is going to want them back. That SIN linking me to the crime is now hot and I could easily dump it and buy a new one, effectively vanishing.

If a runner is caught, they are often assigned a criminal SIN. So when Ares caught up to me... if they decided to just have me thrown in jail, I'd be assigned a criminal SIN. If later on I escaped and again tried to break into an Ares compound, the fake SIN I might have wouldn't help, as a biometric or retinal scan would flag me as the same poor slot who stole a shipment before. This time, I'd probably get a free bullet to the brainpan for my troubles. It's a lot like having a prison tattoo or a deserter's brand on you, once you've got a criminal SIN, the second the cops or corps make a serious effort to find out who you are... you're in trouble. Unless, of course, I get caught by a corp who decides they like the fact I'm so dedicated to stealing Ares weapons, and decide I can bring them a crate or four to in exchange for the antidote to the poison/cranial bomb removed/nanomachines disabled so I don't die/die/die.

2. Nuyen lets you buy lifestyles. I've always ruled (and suggested quite heavily) that runners buy a few months of say, middle lifestyle. If a runner buys nine months of middle lifestyle, they can divide that up and have three safehouses at three months each. That way if things get hot regarding that Ares shipment, I can then let my last known address go vacant and take up residence somewhere the cops aren't waiting for me to return to. Nuyen also buys fake SINs, which I feel a runner should have two of at all times. One for day-to-day activities and maybe a light pistol permit, and one for 'business' with all the permits needed for the fun toys a runner likes to bring along. That way if the run gets hosed, the 'business' SIN can be dumped and you're now just Joe Average and not the droid they're looking for.

Nuyen buys neat toys. Nuyen buys replacement toys. Nuyen is essential, but if you give the runners too much, they don't need to run. They will run (since roleplaying that you're living the high life until the money runs out gets old quick), but if they have too much cash they can screw you up by hiring additional shadowrunner teams to help with the run, which is a headache for you, etc.
laughingowl
I have always looked at it this way.


1 'legitimate' SIN is a accurate and true recording of your biometrics. "dead on' accuracy.

2) A 'fake' SIN is skewed. Enough that while most reader will say it matches you (reader could be slightly out of aling), it also increased the chance it will not 'reverse match to you.

Sort of like DNA.

It can not 'prove' you are a match.

It can prove, you are NOT the match.

It can say that you are one in a billion people that would match, but there COULD be other matches.


Biomtertics stored on SIN: yours +/- .1% variations.

Enough if asked does 99.9 equal 100 most will say that is a match.

However if no ID and you just take a biomettic scan, then 99.9 will not match 100. Now if the scanning authority (suspicious cop) takes the time to widen the search to 'near misses' it will find yours (and likely a few dozen/hundrends) others.



IF you check somebody's ID at the door: ID says they are 1.00012 (what ever your measureing), the scanner reports 1.00011. Odds are you will pass them, figuring the wiggled, the scanner is ever so slightly out of aling, etc.

However, if you dont have an ID, but are trying to do a face match. A value of 1.00012 doesn't match 1.0011 so it is ignored.

In short a fake sin will match you... but rarely will you match a fake sin.
knasser

EDIT: I don't believe it. LaughingOwl has just made the exact same point about reverse matching a fraction of a second before I posted it! eek.gif

Regarding number #2, I'd be surprised if the players aren't coming up with things to spend their money on. Everyone wants a home with a swimming pool and automated sentry-gun defenses.

As regards matching biometrics to a SIN, here's a possibility that GMs can use. I'm not saying that this is how it does work, but if you want to justify a particular way of handing things, then this makes sense.

I've actually had my retina scanned. It was interesting seeing the back of my eyeball. But although it will be different to most other people's backs of eyeballs, I doubt the matching is an exact comparison of photographs between the scan just taken and the one on file. After all, there could be others out there with very similar patterns. Maybe not exact, but how much effort are you going to go to? What might happen with biometrics such as retina scans, is that you do a one way match. It would be like "rounding up" decimal points. You can say that 1.98 falls into the "2" category, but not that a result in the "2" category was originally 1.98.

That means, that if you know who someone is supposed to be, you can check their biometric against what you have on file and rule out 99% of impersonators. But you can't so easily take someone's biometric data and do matching on all the ones out there. The latter might be part of a more thorough testing process, but not the standard one.

So that way, it is possible to have multiple SINs (fake or real) that evaluate to the same biometric IDs. The chances of someone claiming to be you and having a matching retinal scan might be 100,000:1, but there are still a dozen people in the city who's scans would match yours.
draglikepull
Thanks for the answers. The bits about the SIN number were especially helpful.
laughingowl
Hey we agree on something knasser smile.gif


So for me if you 'provide' a SIN/ID they only time a wider check goes out is if you glitch.


If they scan the database for a match of your biometric information then:

1) If you have a non-altered 'legitimate SIN' (be it crimiinal or otherwise, but with an accurate bio-scan): This will get a match.

2) If no 'accurate' bio-scans are on record then any FAKE SIN you get might match. Don't have hard a fast rules for it, but basically if they change the parameters from 'match' to 'near match' they they get the closest 100 matching scans. Generally high ranked fake IDs will be lower on this list. (they are more accurately done to 'match' you, but no reverse map to you (takes skilled biometric technician).)



While the reverse match won't hold up for a court (in any places that actually care about 'proof' and 'fair trials') they can give officers a place to investigate.

One reason to make sure you cheap disposable IDs are exactly that used for very short time, and disposed of (or better, yet sold of and used by somebody else to muddy the trail).


Kyoto Kid
...a good use for all that nuyen ?

...more (& better) fake SINs
Zolhex
On a side note do please remember the only

Dumb
Stupid
Wrong

Question is the one not asked!
laughingowl
QUOTE (Casazil)
On a side note do please remember the only

Dumb
Stupid
Wrong

Question is the one not asked!

Defaintly agree here!


1) Biggest disadvantage to a 'real' SIN. Leaving evedince behind. Any crime scene if anything is left behind. Blood / Tissue samples. Surveliance camera footage, etc. There is a fair to good chance it could be matched to you. This is bad.

Unless you are doing the Gattaca thing of meticoulsly scrubbing yourself down each day (and ideally scattering somebody else dander around) There is a good chance you leave something that can be biometrically scanned.

If you have a 'real' SIN it has a totally accurate read of you and it will match. Not real bad until they get their hands on you have evedince of all your crimes. (plus your 'real' sin possibly becoming a criminal SIN if they get enough to try you in absense).


2) That money: all depends on how much you pay, and how much you make your character pay. Lifestyles are semi-cheap but can eat a fair amount (especially depending on the length od 'downtime' between sessions).

New gear can eat a lot. Many runners tend to go the super paranoid and dispose of everything after a run, and get all new for the next. By the same token even now adays many criminals are caught by NOT changing stuff. (some times simple easy stuff like the tape the stole from their job giving a 'unique' match to the crime and a focus for their search).

the big catch with 'all that money' is make sure the net gain is roughly equal to the karma gains. Sammies, Rigger, Hackers (not TMs) benefit alot from money (and time to make insanse availability roles); Magically active (or TMs) need karma more. Give too much 'net' money (money after expenses) compared to karma, and your mundanes will outpace the magically active.

The reverse (to much karma compared to 'net money') and the magically active will outpace the mundanes.

Balancing money to karma is one of the tricks of a good campaign (though easy to adjust) by either taking money and/or allowing money to karma. (the easiest way have the 'mages' spend money on learning materials).
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