- drones,
- vehicles,
- weapons,
- doors,
- hand-cuffs,
- walls,
- and the occasional mage-geek
Full Version: Powerbolt or Lightning Bolt?
If you wanted an "all-purpose" offensive spell that was optimized for taking out:
Powerbolt is generally better (being direct damage so force is automatic damage), IMO.
Lightingbolt is better if there is also somebody providing spell defense (close to your skill) as with spell defense powerbolt is likely to fail altogether, while lighting bolt is much more likely to do 'something'
Lightingbolt is better if there is also somebody providing spell defense (close to your skill) as with spell defense powerbolt is likely to fail altogether, while lighting bolt is much more likely to do 'something'
do not the direct damage spells have to overcome some kind of resistance when attacking manufactured things?
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| do not the direct damage spells have to overcome some kind of resistance when attacking manufactured things? |
Cast it at force 4 score 4 hits power bolt wins, thats all you need to take out a drone.
i would also say powerbolt. the only important part of lightning bolt (ie the stunning effect) is just as easy to duplicate with a taser, stick-n-shock ammo, etc.
also, your powerbolt can be up to 4 points of force higher than a lightning bolt for the same drain, iirc.
also, your powerbolt can be up to 4 points of force higher than a lightning bolt for the same drain, iirc.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| i would also say powerbolt. the only important part of lightning bolt (ie the stunning effect) is just as easy to duplicate with a taser, stick-n-shock ammo, etc. also, your powerbolt can be up to 4 points of force higher than a lightning bolt for the same drain, iirc. |
Hence the reason I'm quite in favor of dropping the drain of indirect spells by 2 and increasing the drain of direct combat spells by 2.
Well if given the choice between Powerbolt or Lightingbolt, Firedart, or any of the other indirect combat spells I'll take the latter every time because I'd rather face 1/2 Impact, ect then the ORT table and its my reading of the FAQ's Ruling on Indirect Combat Spells that Called Shots should be allowed.
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) | ||
Hence the reason I'm quite in favor of dropping the drain of indirect spells by 2 and increasing the drain of direct combat spells by 2. |
Why? So that the choice between spells isn't meaningful anymore?
The choice isn't meaningful right now. If your in combat direct always wins.
If the indirect combat spells had a lower drain you'd pick them for there lower drain and pick the direct combat spells for the higher destructive power.
If the indirect combat spells had a lower drain you'd pick them for there lower drain and pick the direct combat spells for the higher destructive power.
The reason indirect spells have the higher drain is because you are creating an element and shooting it out instead of direct 'force'. The element spells have secondary effects as well to offset the higher drain.
Here are the ones from the BBB:
Fire: Cooks off ammo, grenades, explosives and causes fires
Lightning: Stuns the target like a tazer and causes electronics to fry
Kinetic (Clout): Pure Kinetic force hits for physical Stun damage
Acid: Melts things that have their Object Resistance beat, like armor and equipment
Also, these elemental spells are Indirect, which means that you dont have to see the target to hit it with an AOE. With direct combat spells you have to be able to see the aura of the target.
Guards who cower behind desks and around corners arnt safe from an elemental mage while they are generally safe from a direct combat mage if they just dont stick their heads up.
Here are the ones from the BBB:
Fire: Cooks off ammo, grenades, explosives and causes fires
Lightning: Stuns the target like a tazer and causes electronics to fry
Kinetic (Clout): Pure Kinetic force hits for physical Stun damage
Acid: Melts things that have their Object Resistance beat, like armor and equipment
Also, these elemental spells are Indirect, which means that you dont have to see the target to hit it with an AOE. With direct combat spells you have to be able to see the aura of the target.
Guards who cower behind desks and around corners arnt safe from an elemental mage while they are generally safe from a direct combat mage if they just dont stick their heads up.
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| The choice isn't meaningful right now. If your in combat direct always wins. If the indirect combat spells had a lower drain you'd pick them for there lower drain and pick the direct combat spells for the higher destructive power. |
What I'm saying is that your two modifications make both of the spells more ubiquitous and similarly powerful. You're trying to make them more of a choice in combat, but you achieve this by making their effectiveness the same. A real choice is provided by having the spells suitable to different situations, so that the player can make a tactical decision. Your version of choice is more like a coin toss.
| QUOTE |
| The choice isn't meaningful right now. If your in combat direct always wins. |
Unless your opponent has enough counterspelling dice to get as many hits as your spellcasting check a perceptible amount of the time, in which case Direct Spells don't do anything and Indirect Spells are still lethal.
Mix in a Plant Spirit and a mage with shielding on the other side and suddenly Powerbolt is a sucker's spell and Ball Lightning is still awesome.
-Frank
Lightning bolt is good for taking out vehicles and drones, and is more useful against high-counterspelling situations like Frank talked about. But powerbolt still has more utility for things like blasting through doors and destroying items. It may not be the best spell for everything on that list, but it is useful for everything on the list. So, its versatility and lower drain edge it out over lightning bolt, for me.
OK a couple rule things you'll really want to keep in mind.
The biggest thing is that DD spells aren't treated like range combat, no called shots or any of that. They affect the whole of a thing. I.E. you can't shoot a wheel, you have to hit the whole vehicle.
Now, I noticed you mentioned hitting walls. Now think about that a moment. You can't target part of a thing. You have to target the whole thing. Meaning you have to take down the whole wall (building whatever). Now you'll probably be able to beat the object resistance to damage the building. But a building probably has hundreds or thousands of boxes on it's physical damage track.
You'll be there a while.
Doors are a bit less clear. But in my mind you absolutly can't target the door like iris in someones eye, and you can't target the door on a car, so again unless it's been unscrewed or something you can't target a door in a building either. You're again hitting the whole building.
Also the LOS thing can be a bitch. No blind fire with DD spells. You have to see the thing. When smoke grenades start dropping things can get exciting. And remember with smartlinks people can, and security personel love, to shoot around corners without exposing themselves. You could nuke their gun of course. But they can get another.
Oh and don't forget the highest target number in the object resistance table is 4+. Not four, four plus. Every so often your GM will remember that.
The biggest thing is that DD spells aren't treated like range combat, no called shots or any of that. They affect the whole of a thing. I.E. you can't shoot a wheel, you have to hit the whole vehicle.
Now, I noticed you mentioned hitting walls. Now think about that a moment. You can't target part of a thing. You have to target the whole thing. Meaning you have to take down the whole wall (building whatever). Now you'll probably be able to beat the object resistance to damage the building. But a building probably has hundreds or thousands of boxes on it's physical damage track.
You'll be there a while.
Doors are a bit less clear. But in my mind you absolutly can't target the door like iris in someones eye, and you can't target the door on a car, so again unless it's been unscrewed or something you can't target a door in a building either. You're again hitting the whole building.
Also the LOS thing can be a bitch. No blind fire with DD spells. You have to see the thing. When smoke grenades start dropping things can get exciting. And remember with smartlinks people can, and security personel love, to shoot around corners without exposing themselves. You could nuke their gun of course. But they can get another.
Oh and don't forget the highest target number in the object resistance table is 4+. Not four, four plus. Every so often your GM will remember that.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| OK a couple rule things you'll really want to keep in mind. The biggest thing is that DD spells aren't treated like range combat, no called shots or any of that. They affect the whole of a thing. I.E. you can't shoot a wheel, you have to hit the whole vehicle. Now, I noticed you mentioned hitting walls. Now think about that a moment. You can't target part of a thing. You have to target the whole thing. Meaning you have to take down the whole wall (building whatever). Now you'll probably be able to beat the object resistance to damage the building. But a building probably has hundreds or thousands of boxes on it's physical damage track. You'll be there a while. Doors are a bit less clear. But in my mind you absolutly can't target the door like iris in someones eye, and you can't target the door on a car, so again unless it's been unscrewed or something you can't target a door in a building either. You're again hitting the whole building. Also the LOS thing can be a bitch. No blind fire with DD spells. You have to see the thing. When smoke grenades start dropping things can get exciting. And remember with smartlinks people can, and security personel love, to shoot around corners without exposing themselves. You could nuke their gun of course. But they can get another. Oh and don't forget the highest target number in the object resistance table is 4+. Not four, four plus. Every so often your GM will remember that. |
people still need to expose themselves to shoot around corners. the gun doesn't just float around the corner your arm still has to hold the gun. Cover doesn't matter with direct combat spells as long as you can see part of the target. The cover would have an effect on indirect combat spells though.
Your iris argument is kinda off though. An iris is nothing like a door. A better argument would have been the eyelid as it can open and close. You are right in saying that doors are a bit less clear. I would have to agree that you shouldn't be able to target a door with a direct combat spell though. I'll admit it's something that has never come up in one of our games. Usually if it's locked they unlock it and use the door handle.
| QUOTE (odinson) |
| people still need to expose themselves to shoot around corners. the gun doesn't just float around the corner your arm still has to hold the gun. Cover doesn't matter with direct combat spells as long as you can see part of the target. The cover would have an effect on indirect combat spells though. |
You're mistaken, Cover is spelled out as one of the Visibility Modifiers which directly subtracts from your Spellcasting Pool whenever you cast any spell. (That little sentence is one of the main reasons that every Mage should pluck out their own eyes to make room for some well choosen cyber.)
| QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth; page 173) |
| ... Visibility modifers (including darkness, cover, and other impediments) noted for ranged combat also reduce the magician's Magic+Spellcasting dice pool when casting spells. |
| QUOTE |
| the gun doesn't just float around the corner your arm still has to hold the gun. |
well, a small helium balloon and a smartlink can take care of that
Well Ravor's advice for having a meta race or eyemods is on whatever spell you use.
But you could just hold onto the handle. You could also just set it on the floor for surpresiveor underbarrel grenade launcher fire.
But,really, you should know about. http://www.cornershot.com/
Also to be fair the issues I brought up had already been mentioned. I just figured without elaboration the point wasn't clear.
But you could just hold onto the handle. You could also just set it on the floor for surpresiveor underbarrel grenade launcher fire.
But,really, you should know about. http://www.cornershot.com/
Also to be fair the issues I brought up had already been mentioned. I just figured without elaboration the point wasn't clear.
sorry, i should have properly shown where the quote was from.
and im aware of cornershot (it showed on the program future warfare on discovery iirc).
but one partially annoying thing about that system is that its based on a
extended stock so to speak. if one look at the animation on the page it appears to hold a glock. if one wants to use it with something like a mp5 it becomes very big, very fast. this because your adding something the length of a smg, behind a smg...
hmm, but now that i think about it, a glock may well do fine if its equipped with a extended clip or something.
and im aware of cornershot (it showed on the program future warfare on discovery iirc).
but one partially annoying thing about that system is that its based on a
extended stock so to speak. if one look at the animation on the page it appears to hold a glock. if one wants to use it with something like a mp5 it becomes very big, very fast. this because your adding something the length of a smg, behind a smg...
hmm, but now that i think about it, a glock may well do fine if its equipped with a extended clip or something.
Of course in SR it would be something more like a preditor.
And assault rifles on the thing do get to be a bit much
http://www.cornershot.com/default.asp?cati...8-F039CA6DF358}
But beyond that just take a regular MP5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_MP5
Since you don't have to pull the trigger you can just crouch down in the middle of some cube farm holding the clip and the bottom part of the handle and fire away over the top of the cub walls. (preferably with multiple walls between you and the runners.
Or just poke the barrel through the drywall next to some substantial structural element to give you some cover (but at the least you'd get blind fire bonuses and maybe a surprise shot just poking through drywall anywhere.)
And realistically you'd think other systems would have been invented as well to acheive purposes similar to the cornershot.
The point is that most regular security(or police) is just going to try and pin runners down until SWAT or corp special forces can move in.
Lightning bolt will hit the person holding the weapon with some secondary effects.(and a little off topic powerball wouldn't get them either, ball lightning would get them and their little dog too.)
Actually I just noticed in the LB spell description that it lists the damage as P whereas on 154 electrical damage does stun. What gives? I'd always had it do stun.
Oh and also what do the rest of you do for damage on weapons. By RAW I set "body" of the things to about 1 (about minidrone sized things) which still gives them 9 boxes of physical track for every 3 you get a negative modifier applying to using the thing. I.e. if a spell slinger is throwing powerbolts and at a gun and is throwing 10 die. Some of the time they'll biff on making the threshold of 3. When they do get over with a success or two they'll do 6 or 7 points of damage. So the thing is still fireing just at -2.
And assault rifles on the thing do get to be a bit much
http://www.cornershot.com/default.asp?cati...8-F039CA6DF358}
But beyond that just take a regular MP5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_MP5
Since you don't have to pull the trigger you can just crouch down in the middle of some cube farm holding the clip and the bottom part of the handle and fire away over the top of the cub walls. (preferably with multiple walls between you and the runners.
Or just poke the barrel through the drywall next to some substantial structural element to give you some cover (but at the least you'd get blind fire bonuses and maybe a surprise shot just poking through drywall anywhere.)
And realistically you'd think other systems would have been invented as well to acheive purposes similar to the cornershot.
The point is that most regular security(or police) is just going to try and pin runners down until SWAT or corp special forces can move in.
Lightning bolt will hit the person holding the weapon with some secondary effects.(and a little off topic powerball wouldn't get them either, ball lightning would get them and their little dog too.)
Actually I just noticed in the LB spell description that it lists the damage as P whereas on 154 electrical damage does stun. What gives? I'd always had it do stun.
Oh and also what do the rest of you do for damage on weapons. By RAW I set "body" of the things to about 1 (about minidrone sized things) which still gives them 9 boxes of physical track for every 3 you get a negative modifier applying to using the thing. I.e. if a spell slinger is throwing powerbolts and at a gun and is throwing 10 die. Some of the time they'll biff on making the threshold of 3. When they do get over with a success or two they'll do 6 or 7 points of damage. So the thing is still fireing just at -2.
High amp electricity definitely does lethal damage. Lots of people killed by high tension wires and real life lightning bolts every year. I have no idea why that line is in the SR. They must have meant it just for non-lethal weapons like tasers and shock gloves.
Maybe it'll be fixed in the 5th printing?
Maybe it'll be fixed in the 5th printing?
| QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jun 11 2007, 09:22 AM) |
| Actually I just noticed in the LB spell description that it lists the damage as P whereas on 154 electrical damage does stun. What gives? I'd always had it do stun. Oh and also what do the rest of you do for damage on weapons. By RAW I set "body" of the things to about 1 (about minidrone sized things) which still gives them 9 boxes of physical track for every 3 you get a negative modifier applying to using the thing. I.e. if a spell slinger is throwing powerbolts and at a gun and is throwing 10 die. Some of the time they'll biff on making the threshold of 3. When they do get over with a success or two they'll do 6 or 7 points of damage. So the thing is still fireing just at -2. |
I've always run it at physical damage. Stun is for those times where the electrical damage is dealt without a specifying the damage type. It is a case of the specific overruling the general. I prefer it this way as it prevents the Street Magic Create-your-own-spells shennigans for at least this spell.
Just as Cold and Ice are seperate, you could do Electricity (Stun) and Lighting (Lethal) if you feel the need.
for damaging weapons, i would use barrier ratings and related rules sunnyside.
Actually what I think would make sense for lightning effects is any force 3 and below is stun and above that is lethal
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| Actually what I think would make sense for lightning effects is any force 3 and below is stun and above that is lethal |
Hey I like that idea.
WMS
@Jaid. So you're saying instead of having a damage track have a threshold of damage they need to do in order to destroy it? (Either way I tend to lift armor values off that chart).
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