Another joyful uncovered piece of rule fu trivia.
I believe you should be able to buy program plans from software pirates and Hacker House as well as utilities. They are quicker to make and corners the cheaper market of starting deckers. It is economically realistic for both the legal and illegal markets to offer self programming option aids and very few people would have the knowledge skills to program everything.

So how much should program plans be and what kind of availability should they have?

The legal versions would have a standard quality to them, while the illegal ones you would have to judge on the maker's rep. Should they be ratings of program plan? If so, how does this effect the price and availability?

All thoughts welcome.

To work out a reasonable cost & availability, determine the time required to plan and the time required to program. Using the programs cost & availability base the plan's cost on the proportion of plan time vs. program time and use an availability of 2 less.

Could I have said it less clearly?

I'm not sure it's really realistic to be able to buy program plans--if you can't understand the plan enough to generate it, how are you going to use it to create a program?

(Well, ok, you'd be able to buy them, but getting a benefit from it seems off to me)

~J

What are you talking about? The source code, some flow charts and psudocode, or something more like a text book?

Is what you're looking for some way to split the balance between paying full price and spending the full time to code?

..I just had Diamond Ice purchase Programme Design knowsofts (since it is a knowledge skill) at the rating she needed & used them to develop her own programme plans.

Uhm... I have a real question. Seriously. I've been programming for like 15 years now. What are program plans? Also, how would one buy such a thing? I don't understand the concept...

EDIT: If this is just a way to tweek deckers more by making them have to spend less money and be able to have less skill, then just scrap the idea here. (Seriously, I have no idea what a program plan would entail...)

Program plan == design. Shadowrun subscribes to the waterfall model, apparently

~J

Waterfall model?

But... why would someone PAY for that? It won't help make programming any easier... That garbage is only for big corporate programs, and it actually makes programming SLOWER and harder because it's designed by a committee and not someone who knows how to code.

I don't hold to this idea, it still sounds to me like a way to get around the rules of needing alot of skills or money. If you want to save money on programs, then go beat up a decker and steal his stuff. Otherwise, either pay for it or make it.

Err, no. Software Engineering does not slow down programming, unless you are dealing with a small project. For software of any decent size, that "garbage" is the only way you're going to avoid code flaws, rework and waste.

I've never heard of anyone buying or selling only the documentation, though I suppose it could happen. Think tanks, consultant shops, etc. I really don't see it happening as far as decker-ware goes though.

I'd handle Software Design/Egineering/whatever knowledge skill as complementary dice to your coding.

Quick revision of the rules for programming seems to be in order.

To start, the programmer can choose to make a program plan using the appropriate knowledge skill TN 4, each success gains a -1TN on the programing test and negates a +2 TN for not having a program plan.
The plan design takes rating multiplied by the utility multiplier in hours to make and is one tenth of the size of the utility.

As you need the correct utility code knowledge skills, which are many and varied, no decker would have them all. Barring a chipjack and a lot of knowsofts.
Hence the program plan allows the character to use their programming ability and time to make something they can already make, simply easier.
The DIY guide to an already skilled programmer.

Hence I can see skilled individuals that have knowledge that others don't making a profit on it without spending two months programming.

I think I understand what Link's idea is. Maybe? Any other ideas?

I am unhappy with charging the the full utility cost for a program plan. Simply its to exspensive for the work.

So, I will go with 5% total parent program cost (with or without street index depending if bought illegally.) And take on board the +2 availability.

Again, why would you be able to usefully buy these?

~J

Again, who takes time to design a program before starting to write the code? Assuming the Deckers of SR are like the hackers of today, they wouldn't do that. While it may be well and good for a large company to do so, for people like myself, and Mr. Graham hacking is an art, not some hard science that needs to be planned out in advance. It's really more like sketching. There isn't usually a good plan of what to do when you start, and even if there were, it wouldn't matter because the end program is usually alot different than what was set out to be made. Again, I still think this is, as stated, just another way to get things easier and cheaper. Why not just take a Matrix programming skill with a Math SPU or something and call it a day?

Sorry Chibu, its the rules of the game.
The actual hacking part is not covered in the PROGRAMING part.
Program plans are an aid to the programing of utilities and these rules actual balances the insane decker economy some what.
With knowledge and time a decker can program a utility that if he had to buy he would instead retire or at least buy a flea pit of a home for life.

As in the game world reality program palns exist (and theres no getting away from it) the law of supply and demand take over. So not a big market share but present.
Thats all I want to represent.

i don't have Matrix on me, so i can't check--are you sure program plans are something that can be used by someone besides the guy who wrote it? i mean, does it specifically state that?

if so, i suppose you could say that a program plan is more than just some psuedocode--it could be a partial or complete API, a set of custom classes, and so on.

There's nothing to say that someone else carn't. As it gives the formula for the exact size of a plan in MP and as you can program without one, why wouldn't you be able to program with one?

well, as Kage said, because the value of a plan in real life is in writing it, not in looking at it. it'd be like borrowing someone's Olympic gold medal and expecting it to make you run faster.

owwo bad metaphor, its closer to buying a blueprint and your a skilled builder.

in real life, it's really not. in SR, it might be--if you allow program plans to be used by someone other than the author.

if you decide that a 'program plan' is, like i said, an API, or an extension of an API, or a bunch of useful classes, then it'd make sense to make it shareable. but that's a bit more than what "program plan" conjures up to most programmers.

I think this is the difference between the game world and real world. The rules are not going to be perfectly releastic but then again the Matrix is not the internet. So you pays your money you make's your choice.
I make it a rule not to argue trauma damage with a paramedic in game. So I'll make a ruling for the game and leave it.

well, yes, if the rules contradict real life, following the rules is a viable choice. but in the case case, the rules aren't explicitly unrealistic. they aren't explicitly realistic, either, so it's up to the GM, i guess.

i'd allow program plans to be sold and used by others, with the caveat that it's more of an API or API extension than a simple 'plan' per se.