Awright, I'm not advocating this over any other system or house rule or local law of the land or the Supreme Shadowrun Court Ruling, I'm just throwing this out there to get a feel for what other people think.
Anyhow, a while ago I was thinking about the called shot crazyness. Makes sense, I thought, until you make a shot to the head. If your target doesn't have a helmet or bone lacing crazyness or what have you, anything in the heavy pistol caliber, should it hit him/her in the head, will kill them. It's that simple. Nobody 'soaks' a .357 or equivilant to the head. Normally, the only soak happening is the wall behind their head, which is now soaked in bodily fluids.
To reflect this, I house ruled that called shots to the head up the damage two damage levels. I also made the difficulty an additional +1 (so, +5 modifier without Smartlink 2, +3 with) and added a -1 difficulty to dodge (tilt your head and what have you) This makes headshots as deadly as I feel they need to be as well as reflecting the difficulty of making them.
Unless he's a great dragon. But then you have bigger problems anyways.
My players have had this rule used against them as well as having used it to their advantage and they seem to like it. What do you all think?
Full Version: Houseruled Headshots
Truth be told, the SR rules have all sorts of quirks like that.
| QUOTE |
| "Here, Trogdor, eat this." *swallow* "Whazzit?" "Just an IPE grenade. Call it a science experiment. Three, two, one..." *tunk* "Ooooh... heartburn. When next run?" |
However, though I agree generally with your idea, cinematic examples of people surviving headshots do exist. "The Bride" in Kill Bill, Harrison Ford's character in Regarding Henry, and others that are probably slipping my mind right now. And, to be honest, what is Shadowrun if not in some sense cinematic?
This is true. That's why they still get to roll body even if they do get hit with a heavy pistol in the head.
Odds are, most people won't survive eight or nine Deadly. But some will.
And if you don't, well...karma pool!
Odds are, most people won't survive eight or nine Deadly. But some will.
And if you don't, well...karma pool!
our general houserule is to apply any and all of the three possible effects of a called shot, if the GM can be convinced that each one applies. for instance, a called shot to an unprotected arm wouldn't raise the damage level, but it might avoid armor, and will probably cause the target to drop his weapon (such effects are decided on the fly, with consideration given to what the intended effect was). a called shot to someone's eye will raise the damage level, negate armor if he doesn't have a helmet on, and blind that eye. not that the blinding part matters, usually.
Sure it does, if they survive. Then they get the +TN for monocular vision.
I personally say that if the target didn't die, it was either a glancing shot off the skull (which can happen, and can be fairly undamaging for a shot to the head) or, more often, that the shot simply didn't hit the head regardless of what the player was trying to do. No houserule required, just interesting ways of expressing it.
~J
~J
People can survive massive head injuries. Here's a pretty famous incident...
September 13th, 1848. Phineas Gage, a railroad foreman was on a blasting site with his crew. He had to break up a fight a couple of times, and in doing so, he forgot to watch out for the blasting areas. He was caught in an explosion and a three-foot-long pole was blown through his head. It entered below his left eye, and passed through his brain, right through the division between the two hemispheres, and out through the top of his skull. Many doctors refused to believe it happened until they found they you stick their fingers in either end of the hole and have them touch in the middle. He lived for some time after the incident, but his personality changed entirely, becoming childish and impulsive.
September 13th, 1848. Phineas Gage, a railroad foreman was on a blasting site with his crew. He had to break up a fight a couple of times, and in doing so, he forgot to watch out for the blasting areas. He was caught in an explosion and a three-foot-long pole was blown through his head. It entered below his left eye, and passed through his brain, right through the division between the two hemispheres, and out through the top of his skull. Many doctors refused to believe it happened until they found they you stick their fingers in either end of the hole and have them touch in the middle. He lived for some time after the incident, but his personality changed entirely, becoming childish and impulsive.
There are tons of examples of people getting holes in their brain and surviving it (at least for some time). But I'd rather call that Hand of God than just plain soaking...
You could think of headshots that get soaked as hitting the sides/top of the skull at an extreme angle, and the troll's big bones deflecting them. Or you can just say that it crushed the person's jaw, or ripped off an ear, or something along those lines.
I use hit locations anyway, so I probably shouldn't comment much... Getting hit in the head is really bad news in my games. But then just getting hit is really bad news in my games in general.
You could think of headshots that get soaked as hitting the sides/top of the skull at an extreme angle, and the troll's big bones deflecting them. Or you can just say that it crushed the person's jaw, or ripped off an ear, or something along those lines.
I use hit locations anyway, so I probably shouldn't comment much... Getting hit in the head is really bad news in my games. But then just getting hit is really bad news in my games in general.
As mfb has mentioned, I also rule what makes sense: if somebody goes called shot for the arm or hand and makes it and there is sufficient penetration, then most likely the NPC or PC will have to drop their gun. This kind of thing.
There have been recorded cases where men have taken a handgun shot to the head, the bullet hit the skull, travelled around the skullcap and out the back, all without touching the grey matter.
I remember reading a Ripley's Believe It or Not that mentioned a French WWI soldier that survived a firing squad during which he recieved multiple wounds to the head with rifle-caliber bullets.
No idea how reliable Ripleys is though.
No idea how reliable Ripleys is though.
| QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman) |
| There have been recorded cases where men have taken a handgun shot to the head, the bullet hit the skull, travelled around the skullcap and out the back, all without touching the grey matter. |
You know, I've heard that story about seven hundred times and have yet to come across a case of it having actually happened. If you have some proof of that, I'd be interested in seeing it. Till then, I'll chalk it up as urban myth.
Here's my personal take on the headshot... if you do enough damage to kill someone, then you may've hit them in the head. IMHO, called shots should only be used for specific non-living targets (e.g. held weapons, light fixtures, etc). If the player wants to RP calling their shot, that's fine, and I would work with it if the attack roll and damage supported the result.
The biggest problem with called shots to the head (or called shots in general) is not realism, but game balance. With your called shot rules one of two things would happen in my game. Everybody would always do called shots, always. What the hell right, cause if you hit there dead. And in SR it really is easy to hit, It's just hard to damage. And the other thing is, everyone would where the most armored helmet they could find, cause all the npc's would be doing called shots as well.
| QUOTE |
| You know, I've heard that story about seven hundred times and have yet to come across a case of it having actually happened. If you have some proof of that, I'd be interested in seeing it. Till then, I'll chalk it up as urban myth. |
Well, my Criminal Investigations professor (with 20 years in Homicide alone) claims to have responded to a call where something very much like that happened.
| QUOTE (Raygun) | ||
You know, I've heard that story about seven hundred times and have yet to come across a case of it having actually happened. If you have some proof of that, I'd be interested in seeing it. Till then, I'll chalk it up as urban myth. |
But it's been shown on the internet, so it MUST be true!!
Actually, just a random link I found (I can't vouch for the validity, but it doesn't look too off the wall):
http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/10/0...03100616336.htm
About two thirds of the way down it mentions two people shot in the head with handguns who survive. Yes, I know it isn't about bullets which magically pass around the brain... But I think it would be quite possible to get hit in the head without hitting the brain (across the face, through the jaw etc.) I don't know exactly what Shanshu meant (would the bullet be travelling between the skull and the skin, across the top of the head?) But I still don't see why a bullet with little enough force and a tight enough angle wouldn't choose to ricochet off of a heavy chunk of bone rather than penetrate it. However, I hardly know enough physics to prove it, and in the end (barring acts of God) I'd follow Raygun's professional opinion.
More of a problem than headshots for me is people thinking that just because they have a high body that they can jump on a explosive. And smother it to protect the rest of the team. Anyone here ever have a troll or street sam do that? How did you or your GM handle it?
I also don't do headshots unless... someone can take 3 full turns to Aim and from surprise (sniper).
But they don't get the usual Aim bonus. They have to make a clean roll and hit. if they hit, dramatic effect. if not... Subject can return fire.
I also don't do headshots unless... someone can take 3 full turns to Aim and from surprise (sniper).
But they don't get the usual Aim bonus. They have to make a clean roll and hit. if they hit, dramatic effect. if not... Subject can return fire.
Don't forget, leaping upon the grenade means you get TWICE the power of the grenade (the power is reflected back from against the ground). That normally does the trick. Also, you could say the armor wasn't designed with the idea of protecting the part of you pressed against the ground in mind (the soles of your feet are normally pretty safe in a gun fight), or that the rules in the book assume that you try to dodge at least a little from a grenade blast. As the gel in your armor is pressed up around your sides or otherwise compressed so it can't ablate, you decrease the armor rating. As you catch ALL of the shrapnel from the grenade and target it at your vulnerable belly (called shot against yourself) AND enjoy the explosive charge meant solely to send the shrapnel into the air, the power and damage level increase.
But that's just if you're feeling really mean.
Random factoid, while I couldn't find anything online about a victim who's bullet passed around his brain (not ricocheting nor 'safely' through), I did find out that a blank shot within a few feet of a person is almost as powerful as a bullet. Hrm... kinda defeats the purpose of buying blanks?
But that's just if you're feeling really mean.
Random factoid, while I couldn't find anything online about a victim who's bullet passed around his brain (not ricocheting nor 'safely' through), I did find out that a blank shot within a few feet of a person is almost as powerful as a bullet. Hrm... kinda defeats the purpose of buying blanks?
Oh yea...
I handle explosives as nosoak. If you are not trying to get away. Then you do not get a soakroll. I give half body for close contact explosions that one would not have chance to escape (rolling with the blast). I.e the claymore boobytrap placed at your door. Explosives are deadly.
I handle explosives as nosoak. If you are not trying to get away. Then you do not get a soakroll. I give half body for close contact explosions that one would not have chance to escape (rolling with the blast). I.e the claymore boobytrap placed at your door. Explosives are deadly.
| QUOTE (easytohate) |
| More of a problem than headshots for me is people thinking that just because they have a high body that they can jump on a explosive. And smother it to protect the rest of the team. Anyone here ever have a troll or street sam do that? How did you or your GM handle it? |
In my games, contact with explosive = double power. 1kg C12 -> 24D+3 (on average). Frag grenade (10S) -> 20D+2 (on average). So far no one has had an overall impact armor higher than 10 in my games, so they'd be in a pretty bad shape if they tried that. Also, make sure to do the same amount of damage to their equipment. You could also rule that since the explosive is in a "confined space" (between a chromed troll and the floor), the Power is doubled again.
I thought about the head shot thingie for a bit, and came to the conclusion that no (meta)human has survived a headshot yet in my current game (about 20 games, at least 15 firefights, about 10 headshots). Although since it's just +1 DL, so most bullet wounds start at S, it should be happening quite a lot. And no one with a helmet has ever been hit in the head either. There were quite a lot of Fenrir wolves that survived headshots, though...
[Edit]Oh, right, no Combat Pool to soak when intentionally jumping on top of the explosive. I give full Body dice though, but that won't help much against Power 12+ attack.[/Edit]
I have always been under the impression that combat pool could not be used to soak anyway. Only could be used to dodge.
Just remember, only a well-placed head shot will kill someone. So, you have to stage a moderate to a deadly. And soaking a 9 deadly is nearly impossible.
Think about those suicide attempts ... chances are, they're augmenting their skill with their combat pool (if they're serious). And they still fail!
Think about those suicide attempts ... chances are, they're augmenting their skill with their combat pool (if they're serious). And they still fail!
| QUOTE (easytohate) |
| I have always been under the impression that combat pool could not be used to soak anyway. Only could be used to dodge. |
As far as I know, Combat Pool can be used to augment the Body roll for soaking as well as being used to Dodge. Of course, the Pool dice only go so far...
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Actually, just a random link I found (I can't vouch for the validity, but it doesn't look too off the wall) |
I know of several cases of people surviving gunshot wounds to the head. I used to work with a guy who said he was shot in the side of the head with a .22 at a range of "about five feet". He had a pretty convincing scar, a good story, and a friend who corroborated it. Though he survived and walked out of the hospital the next day, he said that he was knocked unconcious by the impact.
A DC paramedic I knew once recounted a case of an attempted suicide (with a .22) in which the man, after shooting himself in the head (side of the head, IIRC), drove to the hospital walked into the emergency room to admit himself for treatment.
Most of the survival cases I know of include the use of that very same caliber, but many others have succeeded with it. In most of the cases involving more powerful calibers, the people who were shot were permanently disfigured because of it, others were made incapable of caring for themselves afterward, but the majority are killed outright.
The thing I have the problem with is the whole "bullet hit the skull, travelled around the skullcap and out the back" line. I've heard it countless times and no one ever seems to be able to prove that it actually happened to someone. They heard it from a friend, read it somewhere or something similar to that. I'm not saying that it hasn't happened. A .22 bullet can do a lot of weird things. I just think that this particular story is more urban myth than anything else.
I remember watching something on the idiot box about a bloke who had half of his brain blown out by a .44 magnum, but he survived and his brain pretty much rewired itself after a short hiatus on life support. IIRC, he went on to college and got himself a degree, or diploma, or whatever.
He musta had SOME disability after that.
| QUOTE (Tziluthi) |
| I remember watching something on the idiot box about a bloke who had half of his brain blown out by a .44 magnum, but he survived and his brain pretty much rewired itself after a short hiatus on life support. IIRC, he went on to college and got himself a degree, or diploma, or whatever. |
I read that the theory on this is that the brain doesn't *need* grey matter jelly or whatever to operate in. The idea was that you could put the nerves, dendrites, etc, in water and they'd still work. At least in theory/on paper
Also, humans only use a fraction of their brains, supposedly, maybe this played a role.
<anal>
Funny, I was under the impression that, by canon, there ARE no called shots to the head. You declare a called shot against Mr. Goon (looking for any opening or vulnerable target), and the GM flavors up the results based on how effective you were. Every so often another thread will pop up about head shots, forgetting that SR is a very abstract system...whatever. Have fun.
As for that old myth about not using all of your brain... I direct you thusly.
</anal>
Funny, I was under the impression that, by canon, there ARE no called shots to the head. You declare a called shot against Mr. Goon (looking for any opening or vulnerable target), and the GM flavors up the results based on how effective you were. Every so often another thread will pop up about head shots, forgetting that SR is a very abstract system...whatever. Have fun.
As for that old myth about not using all of your brain... I direct you thusly.
</anal>
Hasaku's got a point.
As for the myth, I assert that it is false, but in the other direction: I see a great many people in daily life who quite clearly do not use ANY of their brain matter, let alone 10% of the stuff.
~J
As for the myth, I assert that it is false, but in the other direction: I see a great many people in daily life who quite clearly do not use ANY of their brain matter, let alone 10% of the stuff.
~J
The phenomenon wherein a person with missing brain tissue regains normal function is called Functional Plasticity. Other parts of the brain can indeed reconfigure themselves, within limits, to perform the functions of the missing portion.
Then again, the same professor who told me this also insisted that we do have large amounts of inert brain tissue, contrary to all that I have read. Take it for what you will.
Then again, the same professor who told me this also insisted that we do have large amounts of inert brain tissue, contrary to all that I have read. Take it for what you will.
Oh, we do. I believe it was white matter; sits around, doesn't do much. [edit] the key is that it isn't like it has the ability to do stuff and we just don't use it. It's stuff what is not useable.
Note that this is remembered from bio so many years ago, but I'm pretty sure that was it.
~J
Note that this is remembered from bio so many years ago, but I'm pretty sure that was it.
~J
Actually, the brain does seem to be rather plastic - more plastic than we realised. As well, it seem to have regenerative powers, but not good ones (there seems to be a kink in the process).
A couple months ago, there was a Scientific American called "Better Brains" that was specifically about the brain. A really good read, I'd recommend people pick it up (just to advance you knowledge - and to support brain research).
back to the 'shooting self in head, suicide topic'. I once read about this senator, who was trying to kill himself. But, he had a really hard time of it. First, he tenderised himself by smashing his body into various furniture. Then, he shot himself in the back of the head. He clearly survived, because he shot himself again in the back of the head, and then once in the belly to make sure.
WOW, people are tough.
PS: I'm quite willing to let this topic drift onto human brain theory and facts!
A couple months ago, there was a Scientific American called "Better Brains" that was specifically about the brain. A really good read, I'd recommend people pick it up (just to advance you knowledge - and to support brain research).
back to the 'shooting self in head, suicide topic'. I once read about this senator, who was trying to kill himself. But, he had a really hard time of it. First, he tenderised himself by smashing his body into various furniture. Then, he shot himself in the back of the head. He clearly survived, because he shot himself again in the back of the head, and then once in the belly to make sure.
WOW, people are tough.
PS: I'm quite willing to let this topic drift onto human brain theory and facts!
I've seen a troll take a burst-fire to the head with EX-Explosive slugs from a Franchi-Spas in our game. Lucky (the troll's name) didn't even take a light wound.
He wouldn't be able to kill himself with a tac nuke to the head!
He wouldn't be able to kill himself with a tac nuke to the head!
Regular shotgun BF (that is, not 10 gauge or 12 gauge Winchester/Olin magnum) with explosive rounds to the head would do 12D+2 + successes in my games. The heaviest helmet anyone has yet had has 7 points of ballistic armor. That's 5D+2, I'm sure a Troll could walk away from that. Getting that down to Light would require 10 successes on the DR test, and thus, on average, 30 dice.
With a saner helmet (the Ball 7 is mounted on top of a heavy mil-spec plated armor suit, which a troll just ain't gonna get), like your basic spectra + ceramic mask (Ball 4), the troll would be facing 8D+2, which would require, on average, 72 dice to reduce to a Light wound.
With AP tungsten sabot slugs, Lucky would've been facing 8D+1 even with the heavy milspec plated helmet (58 dice to Light), 11D+1 with just about any other helmet (144 dice to Light). Heck, even a single sporting rifle/MMG/battle rifle/sniper rifle (7.62x51mm) APDS round would do 7D + successes on a headshot, with either of the helmets mentioned above.
Lucky wouldn't be as lucky if he ever wandered into a game I was running. It just isn't easy being a stupid tank when I'm the GM...
[Edit]BTW, a tac nuke (e.g. 100kt) would do 1265D or 1265D+158 with the optional explosive rules. 10kt (I doubt there are many nukes smaller than that) would only do 400D(+50) though, which I guess would still be survivable in some games...[/Edit]
With a saner helmet (the Ball 7 is mounted on top of a heavy mil-spec plated armor suit, which a troll just ain't gonna get), like your basic spectra + ceramic mask (Ball 4), the troll would be facing 8D+2, which would require, on average, 72 dice to reduce to a Light wound.
With AP tungsten sabot slugs, Lucky would've been facing 8D+1 even with the heavy milspec plated helmet (58 dice to Light), 11D+1 with just about any other helmet (144 dice to Light). Heck, even a single sporting rifle/MMG/battle rifle/sniper rifle (7.62x51mm) APDS round would do 7D + successes on a headshot, with either of the helmets mentioned above.
Lucky wouldn't be as lucky if he ever wandered into a game I was running. It just isn't easy being a stupid tank when I'm the GM...
[Edit]BTW, a tac nuke (e.g. 100kt) would do 1265D or 1265D+158 with the optional explosive rules. 10kt (I doubt there are many nukes smaller than that) would only do 400D(+50) though, which I guess would still be survivable in some games...[/Edit]
For people surviving massive trauma, I bring forth Rasputin as Example A.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| For people surviving massive trauma, I bring forth Rasputin as Example A. ~J |
How much of that was myth and verifiable fact is another matter entirely.
Although examples of bio-feedback are real -- the monks who can produce two different tones simultaneously, for example.
-Siege
My girlfriend does that when she sighs.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| My girlfriend does that when she sighs. ~J |
Hah! Sorry, I'll refrain from speculating about anything else.
-Siege
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