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What prices would you assign to putting the armor mods on vehicles and drones?
Full Version: armor mods for vehicles/drones
No vehicle mod rules yet. Real world, armoring a car turns a $75,000 car into a $150,000 car.
I'd suggest that it's very expensive to armor/up-armor a production vehicle as it requires someone to take the body apart, upgrade the suspension, reassemble it, paint it, etc. Armored cars tend to accelerate slower, turn slower and roll over more often. They also wear out a lot faster and use more fuel. So big bucks plus reduced handling and acceleration.
It's cheaper if you don't want it concealed, but it's still not cheap and it still makes the vehicle perform worse.
On drones I'd probably not allow air vehicles to be moded, nor unarmored vehicles. I'd probably take two points of acceleration and one point of top speed off per extra point, and reduce handling by 1 per 3 points of armor, round up. Cost would be 25% of the original drone cost per point of armor.
All this stuff would be very expensive, but you are hiring a very skilled guy to do the work by hand on a mass produced device.
There is a reason Jesse James has "pay up Sucker" tattooed on his palm.
I'd suggest that it's very expensive to armor/up-armor a production vehicle as it requires someone to take the body apart, upgrade the suspension, reassemble it, paint it, etc. Armored cars tend to accelerate slower, turn slower and roll over more often. They also wear out a lot faster and use more fuel. So big bucks plus reduced handling and acceleration.
It's cheaper if you don't want it concealed, but it's still not cheap and it still makes the vehicle perform worse.
On drones I'd probably not allow air vehicles to be moded, nor unarmored vehicles. I'd probably take two points of acceleration and one point of top speed off per extra point, and reduce handling by 1 per 3 points of armor, round up. Cost would be 25% of the original drone cost per point of armor.
All this stuff would be very expensive, but you are hiring a very skilled guy to do the work by hand on a mass produced device.
There is a reason Jesse James has "pay up Sucker" tattooed on his palm.
OK so how about the chemical protection, fire protection, etc. enhancements?
Would they just follow the same rules as the personal armor counterparts?
Would they just follow the same rules as the personal armor counterparts?
| QUOTE (lunchbox311) |
| OK so how about the chemical protection, fire protection, etc. enhancements? Would they just follow the same rules as the personal armor counterparts? |
You need a lot more, so I'd probably multiply by the vehicle body squared, (minimum of body 1 for this purpose). The only ones that seems to make complete sense is chem seal and electrical insulation. Vehicles are pretty darn non-heat sensitive on the outside and have pretty good resistance to cold. Glancing at rigger 3 I don't see fire and cold armor as options for vehicles.
Real world I've seen specs for armored cars that included extinguishers spraying underneath the vehicle and in the engine compartment, but I suspect that is for use after you have been immobilized by something bad.
I noticed that in rigger 3 they did have every 6 points of armor added reduced handling by 1 for vehicles.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Vehicles are pretty darn non-heat sensitive on the outside and have pretty good resistance to cold. Glancing at rigger 3 I don't see fire and cold armor as options for vehicles. |
Well that just makes all elemental combat spells that much better against vehicles I suppose since there are no hard and fast rules for resistance to those things.
Finally a use for fireball.
| QUOTE (lunchbox311 @ Jun 13 2007, 10:51 PM) |
| Well that just makes all elemental combat spells that much better against vehicles I suppose since there are no hard and fast rules for resistance to those things. |
It's kind of cool how the rule on page 174 that says "Note that objects targeted by Indirect Combat spells do get to resist the damage as they would any ranged attack, use only their Armor rating x 2 (or just Armor against spells with elemental effects)
to resist the damage caused (see Barriers, p. 157)." directly contradicts the awful example on page 196, which forgets to mention both the threshold and the fact that it's vehicle armor.
So I'd guess that the 38 dice of the citymaster might be likely to reduce your spell to an adjusted DV 16 or less. Unless you're a level 13 initiate with aptitude "sorcery" and use edge
Ok, quickie rile:
Each point of armor adds the following:
Handling: -1D6 / Point
Cost:: +10% of vehicle cost per point. (2 points of armour would be 100+10=110+10=121%)
Each point of armor adds the following:
Handling: -1D6 / Point
Cost:: +10% of vehicle cost per point. (2 points of armour would be 100+10=110+10=121%)
well according to the offical website you can have these rules in the begining of 2008.
I love that they want to give us fluff books before the core rules books.
I love that they want to give us fluff books before the core rules books.
Really you should see if you can borrow a copy of rigger 3 if you want to do much of anything with vehicles in the interum.
However I'd at least double all handling effects, due to handling being a much bigger deal in that edition.
Which actually makes kzt about on.
Also GM gets final say. And don't forget the CFs, they serve as a major limiting factor to prevent munching out a vehicle.
However I'd at least double all handling effects, due to handling being a much bigger deal in that edition.
Which actually makes kzt about on.
Also GM gets final say. And don't forget the CFs, they serve as a major limiting factor to prevent munching out a vehicle.
I don't think I agree with the handling going down. Getting things like bullet proof glass are not going to decrease your handling on a car. This would go the same for replacing the body of the car with more durable materials. Just because something is more durable does not mean it weighs more. In fact, just because something is more dense than another object, does not mean it weighs more either. This is a common misconception. The only thing it might negatively affect are crashes because it would result in a more inelastic crash. This is very bad and more force would be transferred to those inside the cars. Though again, this is 2070, who's to say under a crash condition the materials wouldn't be more ideal.
Personally I would get rid of the -handling, the shocks and dampers could be tweaked anyways for this change. If you disagree I would like to know how much weight you think this armor is adding. Are you adding it to the current body or is the body of the car being replaced with new durable material.
One last thing, I am guessing your prices include installation. What if I am an automechanic and can do these things myself? Before this is answered I really have to know what sort of modifications are being done to the car to increase it's armor.
You could also go two different kinds of armoring for the vehicle. One that just protects people inside the car. Armor on the sides and bullet-proof glass. One that protects the whole car. More durable materials for the whole body of the car. For the first option this could be all installed by a mechanic. The second could only be done at the factory, or by a mechanic if the manufacturer sells these armored car bodies. Of course this would require more of the mechanic and more equipment necessary to do the job.
Personally I would get rid of the -handling, the shocks and dampers could be tweaked anyways for this change. If you disagree I would like to know how much weight you think this armor is adding. Are you adding it to the current body or is the body of the car being replaced with new durable material.
One last thing, I am guessing your prices include installation. What if I am an automechanic and can do these things myself? Before this is answered I really have to know what sort of modifications are being done to the car to increase it's armor.
You could also go two different kinds of armoring for the vehicle. One that just protects people inside the car. Armor on the sides and bullet-proof glass. One that protects the whole car. More durable materials for the whole body of the car. For the first option this could be all installed by a mechanic. The second could only be done at the factory, or by a mechanic if the manufacturer sells these armored car bodies. Of course this would require more of the mechanic and more equipment necessary to do the job.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| I don't think I agree with the handling going down. Getting things like bullet proof glass are not going to decrease your handling on a car. |
Sadly, that's just not true. There are always tradeoffs.
Uparmored humvees roll over a LOT more than unarmored. It's virtually impossible to roll an unarmored model (even I couldn't do it, though I almost dropped one over a cliff), but trivial to roll an uparmored humvee. I'd expect that rolling an armored hemtt is even easier.
Deadly price paid for Humvee armor used to protect soldiers Despite what the article says, the crashes and roll-overs were an expected side effect and the increased chance of roll-overs ands crashes was one of the reasons that armored humvees and trucks were not extensively deployed earlier.
This is also true for armoring cars. You raise the total weight (increasing momentum) and raise the center of gravity by increasing the weight of the windows and roof.
| QUOTE |
| Before this is answered I really have to know what sort of modifications are being done to the car to increase it's armor. |
Problem is, this game just isn't that detailed. You don't have under vehicle descriptions: "Window Armor: 4; Door Armor: 7; Hood Armor: 9; etc." You have a single armor rating, which represents all kinds of things, from general durability of the car's frame and body to actual armor plating and so forth. You're not going to get a single answer. You can get examples of what might be done to increase armor; but this is all fluff. The pricing would based on the result, not the technique, unless you ruled that a certain technique produced an appreciably different effect. Other than that, in rules terms you call it "Armor Enhancement", charge a set fee, and use whatever explanation suits your fancy for what exactly is done.
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| Other than that, in rules terms you call it "Armor Enhancement", charge a set fee, and use whatever explanation suits your fancy for what exactly is done. |
Which is why in the rigger books they do they reduce the handling as you add armor. . . .
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| Just because something is more durable does not mean it weighs more. In fact, just because something is more dense than another object, does not mean it weighs more either. This is a common misconception. |
Something more dense will only weigh the same as something less dense if there is less volume of the first object. Generally armor is both more dense and more voluminous than non armor.
You are quite correct about durability, there doesn't have to be a correlation between density and durability, usually there is a correlation though since more massive things absorb energy more easily.
| QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Jun 15 2007, 09:35 AM) |
| You are quite correct about durability, there doesn't have to be a correlation between density and durability, usually there is a correlation though since more massive things absorb energy more easily. |
There doesn't have to be, but unless you replace the entire frame, suspension, engine and powertrain you are putting a much heavier load on the vehicle than it was designed for. That's why armored humvee service lifetime is so greatly reduced and why you can get "great deals" on 5 year old armored cars and vans.
For people who can afford and need an armored car and bodyguards having to buy a few new cars every few years is not a big deal. Having one break down at an inopportune moment could be a really big deal.
If you want a highly durable armored vehicle you need to buy a purpose built military AFV, and maintain it carefully. The next step down is buying a car armored by a specialist like O'Gara. But you are still going to need a lot more maintenance than the average car will. I'm not sure what the options after that are, but I'd tend to doubt the results of asking the guy down the street to armor your car are going to be satisfactory.
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
Sadly, that's just not true. There are always tradeoffs. Uparmored humvees roll over a LOT more than unarmored. It's virtually impossible to roll an unarmored model (even I couldn't do it, though I almost dropped one over a cliff), but trivial to roll an uparmored humvee. I'd expect that rolling an armored hemtt is even easier. Deadly price paid for Humvee armor used to protect soldiers Despite what the article says, the crashes and roll-overs were an expected side effect and the increased chance of roll-overs ands crashes was one of the reasons that armored humvees and trucks were not extensively deployed earlier. This is also true for armoring cars. You raise the total weight (increasing momentum) and raise the center of gravity by increasing the weight of the windows and roof. |
Don't Humvees roll over because the center of gravity is so high. When you put more weight on top the center of gravity goes up even higher making it easier to tip. Having a car that is armoured won't just roll over the center of gravity is low enough to the ground.
Adding extra weight isn't that big a deal if the vehicle is built well to begin with. I'd really limit the amount of armour to the body or body/2 of the vehicle. You can take a pickup, throw some airbags into the suspension, change the shocks and haul a couple extra tons with it so I would guess that adding a couple hundred pounds of armour isn't that big a deal. How many people take their pickup, pull the engine and transmission out and throw bigger ones in. Change the diff to a 2 speed and you add even more weight.
basic humvees have a pretty low center of gravity. they're very wide vehicles; it's really, really hard to roll them. that's actual military humvees, though. i have been led to believe those crappy civilian dick-replacement "hummers" are pretty easy to roll.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| basic humvees have a pretty low center of gravity. they're very wide vehicles; it's really, really hard to roll them. that's actual military humvees, though. i have been led to believe those crappy civilian dick-replacement "hummers" are pretty easy to roll. |
the civilian humvees are based on a jeep chassis IIRC. That makes them narrower.
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
There doesn't have to be, but unless you replace the entire frame, suspension, engine and powertrain you are putting a much heavier load on the vehicle than it was designed for. That's why armored humvee service lifetime is so greatly reduced and why you can get "great deals" on 5 year old armored cars and vans. For people who can afford and need an armored car and bodyguards having to buy a few new cars every few years is not a big deal. Having one break down at an inopportune moment could be a really big deal. If you want a highly durable armored vehicle you need to buy a purpose built military AFV, and maintain it carefully. The next step down is buying a car armored by a specialist like O'Gara. But you are still going to need a lot more maintenance than the average car will. I'm not sure what the options after that are, but I'd tend to doubt the results of asking the guy down the street to armor your car are going to be satisfactory. |
Yes definately. But you could probably do a decent job of armoring a car by lining the inside of the passenger compartment with kevlar vests and replacing the glass with bullet proof glass.
It wouldn't stop rifles, but you'd be pretty much immune to pistol fire. That would make the vehicle have an armor value of ~6. (heavy pistols do 5P-1AP, all rifles are higher than that)
Depending on the size of the vehicle, it would probably only add the weight of 2 or 3 extra people. In a 4 door car, it should be able to handle the extra weight with out complaining too much if you're the only person in it. Now if you armored it and then put 4-5 people in it, yeah it would need some suspension and drivetrain help.
| QUOTE (odinson) | ||
the civilian humvees are based on a jeep chassis IIRC. That makes them narrower. |
H1s are actual Humvee chassis. The others are not. They are a part of GM, so they are not jeep based.
But I was talking about the softsided military version, not the $150,000 one with leather. The softsided military version is really stable, as it a really low CG. I don't personally know anyone who rolled one or seen one roll (unlike the old jeeps that the humvee replaced). Once you put an armor kit on a humvee it's a lot less stable. The armor pulls the CG higher above the ground and makes it take longer to stop.
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