I have notice that most players want to throw as many dice as possible, and with the new rules there is a great deal of room for Min/Maxing. But as a reasonable game master I Have limited y players to around a Dice pool of 12. With 12 dice they will average 4 hits and be able to make most thresholds.
So if you were a player in my game how would you Rationalize a dice pool of more than 12 dice. Consider before you answer, That the averages for "real" people are around 7 to 9 dice, for instance a Street cop with Agility 4 Pistols 3 and a Smartlink is a Dead Shot with his Pistol (9 Dice is three below my Cap).
Full Version: Reasonable Dice Pools
RAW allows it. That's all the reasonable rationale I need. Anything else means I am an unreasonable GM.
i was against the hard caps of SR4 being possible straight from chargen. i am even more opposed to them being *easily* obtained with very little min/maxing involved. (for example, a fairly standard hacker will have programs at rating 5 and a hacking skill at 5, for example. throw in hotsim, and they are no longer able to improve)
add in the fact that players are supposed to start off exceptional people, and that they can be augmented beyond human levels of possibility, and it just gets even more of a limitation. if your players would min/max to get obscenely high dicepools, they're still gonna min/max, only now they're going to go for 12 in everything. so instead of being the best in the world at one thing, now they'll be the best in the world at 5.
consider also that many modifiers can easily bring dice pools to much higher levels (for example, a chargen hacker would likely get no use out of codeslinger. a chargen elven face likely won't ever need more than 2 points in each social skill. and so on)
if min/maxing is a problem with your group, you need to either:
1) switch to a less min/max exploitable chargen system... for example, serbitar's karma chargen, or frank's BP after-chargen advancement.
2) *talk* to your players. tell them that you want to see in their characters, what sort of game you'll be playing etc. in the end, no matter *what* system you use, it *can* be min/maxed. there are always choices that will be "the best" no matter what you do. if you limit the dice pool to 12, then people will just figure out a way to hit that limit with the least possible resources, and there will still be min/maxing.
personally, i recommend either using the second one, or using both (in fact, it is my opinion that the chargen rules and the advancement rules should be unified whether or not you have min/maxing issues in your group, but that's up to you)
add in the fact that players are supposed to start off exceptional people, and that they can be augmented beyond human levels of possibility, and it just gets even more of a limitation. if your players would min/max to get obscenely high dicepools, they're still gonna min/max, only now they're going to go for 12 in everything. so instead of being the best in the world at one thing, now they'll be the best in the world at 5.
consider also that many modifiers can easily bring dice pools to much higher levels (for example, a chargen hacker would likely get no use out of codeslinger. a chargen elven face likely won't ever need more than 2 points in each social skill. and so on)
if min/maxing is a problem with your group, you need to either:
1) switch to a less min/max exploitable chargen system... for example, serbitar's karma chargen, or frank's BP after-chargen advancement.
2) *talk* to your players. tell them that you want to see in their characters, what sort of game you'll be playing etc. in the end, no matter *what* system you use, it *can* be min/maxed. there are always choices that will be "the best" no matter what you do. if you limit the dice pool to 12, then people will just figure out a way to hit that limit with the least possible resources, and there will still be min/maxing.
personally, i recommend either using the second one, or using both (in fact, it is my opinion that the chargen rules and the advancement rules should be unified whether or not you have min/maxing issues in your group, but that's up to you)
The problem with someone with 12 dice being able to get 4 hits "on average" is that you are assuming both optimal conditions (no penalties) and that the target of the skill gets no successes. So 4 hits does not translate to 4 net successes.
A dice pool of more than 12 dice should not be something a player needs to "rationalize", beyond "My character is a shadowrunner". Even some of the archetypes, which are middling (at best) examples, get more than 12 dice.
And they need that crushing advantage, because in a game of randomly rolled dice, you will quickly get killed if every fight is a statistically "even" one. And there are also countless penalties (dim light, switching targets, running, working under poor conditions, trying to convince someone who is racist against your metatype, etc.), which can drag a dice pool down.
So no, I don't think there is anything "reasonable" about gimping players with a maximum dice pool of 12, unless you are running a 300-point game of street kids from the Barrens.
A dice pool of more than 12 dice should not be something a player needs to "rationalize", beyond "My character is a shadowrunner". Even some of the archetypes, which are middling (at best) examples, get more than 12 dice.
And they need that crushing advantage, because in a game of randomly rolled dice, you will quickly get killed if every fight is a statistically "even" one. And there are also countless penalties (dim light, switching targets, running, working under poor conditions, trying to convince someone who is racist against your metatype, etc.), which can drag a dice pool down.
So no, I don't think there is anything "reasonable" about gimping players with a maximum dice pool of 12, unless you are running a 300-point game of street kids from the Barrens.
| QUOTE (Noctum) |
| I have notice that most players want to throw as many dice as possible, and with the new rules there is a great deal of room for Min/Maxing. But as a reasonable game master I Have limited y players to around a Dice pool of 12. With 12 dice they will average 4 hits and be able to make most thresholds. So if you were a player in my game how would you Rationalize a dice pool of more than 12 dice. Consider before you answer, That the averages for "real" people are around 7 to 9 dice, for instance a Street cop with Agility 4 Pistols 3 and a Smartlink is a Dead Shot with his Pistol (9 Dice is three below my Cap). |
But a street cop is FAR below your typical shadowrunner. They may have to take on several people that skill level at a time. 3 dice is about a one hit difference.
The professional rating 6 grunts tend to have 13 dice in there expert area. For example tri-ghosts would have 13 dice with there automatics.
Those are grunts they SHOULD be inferior to the runners.
Shadowrunners are not these green kids fresh out of training. They are already highly skilled before the game begins.
Take this human gunslinger.
He has agility 5, not unusually he's a specialized gunman he should be agile.
Give him muscle tonner rating 2
Give him the automatics skill of 5
and a smartlink
You have 14 dice. 16 dice for his specialization.
Its not that hard to have a high dice pool even with out pouring all your resources into one area.
If your specialization is in shooting of course you'll want reflex recorders and muscle tonners.
And of course you'd have spent time developing your shooting skills.
Limiting a dice pool to around 12 is like saying.
You can't excel at anything in my game, you can be above average for someone who uses the same skill professionally but thats it. You can only be a nudge above the better grunts. But your actually below professional rating 6 grunts.
If you feel you must, pick a number more reasonable like 14 or 16. Its high but its not like 20 or 22. Which some characters get up to.
After all Tri-Ghosts get 13 dice (including smartlink) with there firearms, and there focus is in hacking and stealth.
The Street Samurai archtype has 14 dice in automatics (including smartlink) with automatics with out taking a specialization. 5(7) agility, 5 in automatics +2 smartlink. Did they min max that archtype?
since they've already said it I'm not going to...
I did have a few questions though.
that 12 dicepool limit, do the bad guys roll dice?
example: I shoot I roll I gain a hit therefore I hit?
or are all other rules involved?
I did have a few questions though.
that 12 dicepool limit, do the bad guys roll dice?
example: I shoot I roll I gain a hit therefore I hit?
or are all other rules involved?
Well personally I've started "encouraging" my players to make more rounded Runners with lower starting Dice Pools, and in my opinion it makes the game more fun for everyone once people get used to the idea that you don't need to roll a bucketfull of Dice to be sucessfull as a Shadowrunner.
Of course, it only works if the DM also agrees to abide by the same rules and doesn't use NPCs with huge Dicepools themselves.
Of course, it only works if the DM also agrees to abide by the same rules and doesn't use NPCs with huge Dicepools themselves.
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| since they've already said it I'm not going to... I did have a few questions though. that 12 dicepool limit, do the bad guys roll dice? example: I shoot I roll I gain a hit therefore I hit? or are all other rules involved? |
Ha! If he ran it that way, 12 dice would be a bargain, and more powerful than 21 dice under "normal" rules. Under normal rules, the shooter has potential penalties (target has cover, firing at target from cover, firing while running, switching targets, poor lighting, etc.). Then, after you roll whatever dice you have left, the target rolls Reaction to reduce your hits (assuming that the target isn't on full defense, and assuming the target doesn't spend Edge).
Wow. You must really hate Adepts. Anyway, since I assume you balance your campaigns with the PC's power level in mind, my expectation with such a situation would be that unless you're a touch sadistic, having a dicepool of 12 or so would suddenly place people near or at the top of the food chain, obviating the need to take such high dicepools to begin with, so metagaming would live on regardless. You'd just change the dominant characters from super high dice gunbunnies to jack-of-all-trade types who could comfortably expect to meet your expectations of what character is capable of in a wide variety of areas. For example, a min-maxed elven agility or social adept could theoretically default any charisma or agility linked skills at or very near your new cap. Odds are, you're really just taking characters from being super awesome compared to everyone else at one or two things and making them awesome at practically everything compared to everyone else.
[Massively Edited]
[Massively Edited]
Well hate is a bit strong, but yeah, I don't much care for Adepts whose sole reason to exist is to roll the most dice possible in one or two things.
However, the simple fact remains that Fourth Edition tends to break once the bucket-loads of Dice comes out to play. Something is wrong when you can piss on the Don's Mother and still convince him to be your best buddy or take off your clothes, paint yourself orange and run around screaming and still be able to sneak past sec guards.
One way to fix this is to run with the idea floating around in another thread of having Modifiers affect Thresholds instead of Dice Pools, but that seems like too much work to properly balance to me.
The other way to fix it is to lower the Dice Pools in play, and it seems to work, now my players tend to try to hedge all the extra Modifiers that they can to up their Dicepool, which in turn leads to more tactics used, which is a win in my book.
Still, your milage may vary and if you enjoy playing Shadowrun with buckets of Dice and superhuman feats being pulled off all the time then more power to you, I enjoy those games as well, but right now I'm trying something a little more down-to-earth and gritter and am having a blast.
However, the simple fact remains that Fourth Edition tends to break once the bucket-loads of Dice comes out to play. Something is wrong when you can piss on the Don's Mother and still convince him to be your best buddy or take off your clothes, paint yourself orange and run around screaming and still be able to sneak past sec guards.
One way to fix this is to run with the idea floating around in another thread of having Modifiers affect Thresholds instead of Dice Pools, but that seems like too much work to properly balance to me.
The other way to fix it is to lower the Dice Pools in play, and it seems to work, now my players tend to try to hedge all the extra Modifiers that they can to up their Dicepool, which in turn leads to more tactics used, which is a win in my book.
Still, your milage may vary and if you enjoy playing Shadowrun with buckets of Dice and superhuman feats being pulled off all the time then more power to you, I enjoy those games as well, but right now I'm trying something a little more down-to-earth and gritter and am having a blast.
Problem is, braking a low powered game is often about as easy as breaking the high powered ones. Having a frank discussion of what it is you want to accomplish with the direction of your sessions is often a better way of going about it than introducing hardcaps. So encouraging one's players is certainly always a good option.
Ok, you've managed to tweak my curious streak, how would you go about doing so? (I've haven't given it that much thought so I might be missing something really simple.)
*Edit*
Just to prevent confusion, I'm talking about as easily breaking a lower powered campaign as a higher powered one.
*Edit*
Just to prevent confusion, I'm talking about as easily breaking a lower powered campaign as a higher powered one.
It's really all about alternate tactics in this case. Relatively low powered games tend to overemphasize the usefulness of negative dicepool modifiers. Suddenly things like smoke grenades and wide bursts take out virtually anyone and everything, a development which tends to favor high powered heavy artillery, oddly enough. It IS less broken then the worst case social adept scenarios though, no argument there. I was just getting a bit overzealous.
Ok I see where you are coming from now, very good points, but I think we may simply have different definations of what is and isn't broken, but as long as everyone at both of our tables is having fun then everything is cool.
Shadowrun has always been a game very easily broken. I actually quit playing for a couple years (basically I skipped over SR3) cause the game was so easily broken by anyone who wanted to specialize in a certain area and ignore all other areas.
I came back to SR4 because it seems much less likely to be broken and it appears that breaking it can be controlled a lot more easily than previous editions. I've not played it enough yet to really get a feel for it though.
I've loved Shadowruns setting, always have. Loved it so much I had even attempted to transplant a modified Earthdawn Ruleset into the setting. Never did complete that project...
Hmm, maybe I should start that up again.
*wanders away mumbling to himself*
I came back to SR4 because it seems much less likely to be broken and it appears that breaking it can be controlled a lot more easily than previous editions. I've not played it enough yet to really get a feel for it though.
I've loved Shadowruns setting, always have. Loved it so much I had even attempted to transplant a modified Earthdawn Ruleset into the setting. Never did complete that project...
Hmm, maybe I should start that up again.
*wanders away mumbling to himself*
AS for breaking a low powered game, some back of the napkin says that I can get an adept with 12 dice in all social skills, 11 in all gun skills, and 12 in most hacking skills.
Looks something like:
Ork Adept
B 4
A 5 (7)
R 5 (6)
S 3
I 4
L 3
C 4
W 3
E 3
M 5 (4)
Hacking Group 4
Influence Group 4
Firearms Group 4
Adept Abilities:
Kinestics 4
Increased hacking skill 2 (3 skills)
Cyberware:
Muscle Toner 2
Synaptic booster - 1
Costs seems to be around 380 points. Enough left for some round out skills and to pay for other gear and stuff after your flaws. Some more min maxing may let you max out another area of skill (for example, dropping edge and fiddling around a bit more can get your the stealth group, which you cap out due to your boosted agility.
In a non-capped game, this character is sorta interesting, but underpowered compared to any specialist character. In the 12 dice cap game, has has maxed skills in a very large number of abilities in the game.
Looks something like:
Ork Adept
B 4
A 5 (7)
R 5 (6)
S 3
I 4
L 3
C 4
W 3
E 3
M 5 (4)
Hacking Group 4
Influence Group 4
Firearms Group 4
Adept Abilities:
Kinestics 4
Increased hacking skill 2 (3 skills)
Cyberware:
Muscle Toner 2
Synaptic booster - 1
Costs seems to be around 380 points. Enough left for some round out skills and to pay for other gear and stuff after your flaws. Some more min maxing may let you max out another area of skill (for example, dropping edge and fiddling around a bit more can get your the stealth group, which you cap out due to your boosted agility.
In a non-capped game, this character is sorta interesting, but underpowered compared to any specialist character. In the 12 dice cap game, has has maxed skills in a very large number of abilities in the game.
This seems like the worst idea I've seen in a long time. With 12 dice you cannot even on average kill a helpless pedestrian with a single non-aimed shot from an Ares Predator.
The adept in my game has 16 dice when shooting his pistols, and he hits pretty much everything. He takes down standard security guards in one shot usually, but he would have a hard time against a squad of Ghosts, as damn well should be. Yes, he is a master at what he does (pistols 6), yet that doesen't make him invincible.
The hacker in my game actually only has 7 dice in computer skills, so he needs to use hot sim often in order to have a chance, and the last mission he spent 3 edge while hacking a security station in order to succeed. He's not a specialized hacker though, more a thief.
Although it might seem "unfair" that the adept has that many dice compared to the thief, both characters are extremely important in the group. And the Troll sammie can perform almost as well as the adept anyway, and still be ALOT harder to take down.
That's the name of the game. The characters are supposed to be good at what they do, or they won't survive a mistake.
The adept in my game has 16 dice when shooting his pistols, and he hits pretty much everything. He takes down standard security guards in one shot usually, but he would have a hard time against a squad of Ghosts, as damn well should be. Yes, he is a master at what he does (pistols 6), yet that doesen't make him invincible.
The hacker in my game actually only has 7 dice in computer skills, so he needs to use hot sim often in order to have a chance, and the last mission he spent 3 edge while hacking a security station in order to succeed. He's not a specialized hacker though, more a thief.
Although it might seem "unfair" that the adept has that many dice compared to the thief, both characters are extremely important in the group. And the Troll sammie can perform almost as well as the adept anyway, and still be ALOT harder to take down.
That's the name of the game. The characters are supposed to be good at what they do, or they won't survive a mistake.
This is for Starting Characters I have no issues with Character getting better than that... And I mis-spoke in the original post.. I meant Skill + attribute being 12 dice Max... With Smart gun and other mods I have no issue with 14 or even 15 dice I just feel that its not horribly reasonable for a player to start with 21 or 28 dice like I have seen.
Reasonable is about game balance. (And yes Modified Attributes and Skills)
Reasonable is about game balance. (And yes Modified Attributes and Skills)
What is Skill + Attribute? Unmod skill + unmod Attribute? Unlikely to be over 12 in the first place. But mod skill + mod Attribute - now there's the many dice.
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Jun 18 2007, 02:11 AM) |
| Ok I see where you are coming from now, very good points, but I think we may simply have different definations of what is and isn't broken, but as long as everyone at both of our tables is having fun then everything is cool. |
Eh, honestly, you were right about high powered games being more broken in general Ravor. I was just babbling last night due to lack of sleep and being focused so heavily on the idea of a 12 dice cap. Artificially low caps may mean victory nearly always goes to the guy capable of inflicting negative dice pools, but that's rarely going to be truly gamebreaking, since you often need to plan yourself into those kind of opportunities anyway (or pack a taser and flashpack
). My point on how it'd be trivially easy to make a character who's great at a ridiculous number of skills is the only thing I really feel comfortable standing behind at this point.
I don't understand people that would rather play in a game world where everyone is good at everything, instead of individual characters being great at one or two things apiece. Given how easy it is to get a 12-die pool, after just a few session with reasonable karma awards, wouldn't you just end up with everyone rolling 12 dice for everything useful?
First off Noctum, define exactly what your problem with the large dice pools is, in regards to what happens on the table and the like.
For example my problems with it are.
1. A character super specialized in a skill tends to be bad at other stuff, which leads to one dimensional play. Also if their skill is combat it tends to lead to retarded play in order of hose everyone elses plans and cause combat, and if it's in something else you can get bored players if that specific thing doesn't come up a lot.
2. Eventually the dice modifier mechanic starts comming apart. Not only does this allow some ridiculous things to happen (moreso for toturi than the rest of us since "running around orange and naked" doesn't have a RAW listed modifier, so I suppose he doesn't apply one.
).
3. Tied in with #2, tactical play flies out the window. When you're throwing a huge pile of dice it doesn't much matter what else is going on, you don't care, and that reduces how much they care about any of that leading to banal unrealistic play.
2&3 are kinda new issues because a D6 target number based mechanic doesn't tend to suffer from them. I'm liking the threshold thing for that. Or you could just flip back to a variable TN system.
Problem number one requires talking with the characters. Remember you have to OK their characters before they can play them in your campaign. And don't forget that specialization isn't a bad thing, it's super specialization at the cost of all else that stinks things up. We're talking about doing things like exceptional stats or skill qualities on top of a bunch of other stuff and other stats at 1 and only a handfull of other skills.
For example my problems with it are.
1. A character super specialized in a skill tends to be bad at other stuff, which leads to one dimensional play. Also if their skill is combat it tends to lead to retarded play in order of hose everyone elses plans and cause combat, and if it's in something else you can get bored players if that specific thing doesn't come up a lot.
2. Eventually the dice modifier mechanic starts comming apart. Not only does this allow some ridiculous things to happen (moreso for toturi than the rest of us since "running around orange and naked" doesn't have a RAW listed modifier, so I suppose he doesn't apply one.
). 3. Tied in with #2, tactical play flies out the window. When you're throwing a huge pile of dice it doesn't much matter what else is going on, you don't care, and that reduces how much they care about any of that leading to banal unrealistic play.
2&3 are kinda new issues because a D6 target number based mechanic doesn't tend to suffer from them. I'm liking the threshold thing for that. Or you could just flip back to a variable TN system.
Problem number one requires talking with the characters. Remember you have to OK their characters before they can play them in your campaign. And don't forget that specialization isn't a bad thing, it's super specialization at the cost of all else that stinks things up. We're talking about doing things like exceptional stats or skill qualities on top of a bunch of other stuff and other stats at 1 and only a handfull of other skills.
| QUOTE (Noctum) |
| This is for Starting Characters I have no issues with Character getting better than that... And I mis-spoke in the original post.. I meant Skill + attribute being 12 dice Max... With Smart gun and other mods I have no issue with 14 or even 15 dice I just feel that its not horribly reasonable for a player to start with 21 or 28 dice like I have seen. Reasonable is about game balance. (And yes Modified Attributes and Skills) |
I did this in the game I ran and found that the results weren't bad at all. My reasoning is that shadowrunners are supposed to be more generalistic than "I'm an autistic shoot/cast/demo/hack monkey". And 12 dice is about twice what a standard professional character should achieve. (3 is the average stat, and a skill of 3 is a professional rating).
I felt that this kept the game working well because hits were limited in the 1-4 range, and people didn't always succeed in their rolls. I didn't have to be a stickler for penalties, I picked the largest penalty and applied that (as it says to do to quicken game play in the book). It meant that I could challenge the characters with average or above average people. I didn't need dragons and cyberzombies to make my characters think twice about what happened to them next.
The alternate way to play, is to not have caps but just make every one require 4 successes to do anything normal, and 6+ successes to do anything extrordinary.
Though, One other thing I did with my game is made skills higher than 4 give you a nebulous "fame" effect. Any one who has a pistols 6 skill is likely known by some body else who is in the circle of elite pistoliers. You can't train your self to be the best in a vaccuum, with out meeting other people who are very good at what you do.
What I do is move dice pool mods over to threshold mods. That way you don't have to have such high dice pools in the first place.
I changed to d10s instead of d6s with a TN of 7. 10s open once normally but count as 2 successes automatically with edge rolls. Can't have more successes then the number of dice you rolled.
Then caps are not as much of a problem. Smaller dice pools work out fine. It's not always success for free but it works out.
I changed to d10s instead of d6s with a TN of 7. 10s open once normally but count as 2 successes automatically with edge rolls. Can't have more successes then the number of dice you rolled.
Then caps are not as much of a problem. Smaller dice pools work out fine. It's not always success for free but it works out.
You might want to reply in the "threshold" thread instead garrowolf. But what do you do with negative thresholds?
Well Lagomorph said it better and first, but yeah, I believe that a good Runner should be a generalist with possibly a couple of areas that he has focused on as opposed to being World Class in only one or two things.
But then again, I like playing with smaller groups so stepping on each other's toes isn't as big of a problem as it would be if I had 5-6 people sitting around the table with me. (But then again, with a larger group Boredom might be if I wasn't focused on whatever their characters were good at so I'm not sure what the prefect solution would be.)
Although as an aside, there actually are Modifiers for being Orange and Naked while sneaking, the problem is that they aren't large enough to keep "Mr Sneak Monkey" from having a good chance at suceeding if you only apply RAW to the situation.
But then again, I like playing with smaller groups so stepping on each other's toes isn't as big of a problem as it would be if I had 5-6 people sitting around the table with me. (But then again, with a larger group Boredom might be if I wasn't focused on whatever their characters were good at so I'm not sure what the prefect solution would be.)
Although as an aside, there actually are Modifiers for being Orange and Naked while sneaking, the problem is that they aren't large enough to keep "Mr Sneak Monkey" from having a good chance at suceeding if you only apply RAW to the situation.
That orange and naked thread was a whole other discussion. And a long one as I recal.
Anyway if just orange and naked sneaking might not be all that bad, just stay in the shadows. The trick being people aruged they should also be able to run around screaming for another modifier and still get past.
Personally I require certain conditions to even be able to try a roll. For example to use the run skill I would require something to run on. Running through the air or over water isn't an option. Similarly someone couldn't sneak accross, for example, a wide open empty football field. Where Mr. Sneakalots huge dice pool would come into play is if a lawn tending drone started making it's way up and down the field, and there is a tiny chance someone could stay on their hands and knees so the camera couldn't see them behind the drone as it goes across the field or somesuch.
Anyway if just orange and naked sneaking might not be all that bad, just stay in the shadows. The trick being people aruged they should also be able to run around screaming for another modifier and still get past.
Personally I require certain conditions to even be able to try a roll. For example to use the run skill I would require something to run on. Running through the air or over water isn't an option. Similarly someone couldn't sneak accross, for example, a wide open empty football field. Where Mr. Sneakalots huge dice pool would come into play is if a lawn tending drone started making it's way up and down the field, and there is a tiny chance someone could stay on their hands and knees so the camera couldn't see them behind the drone as it goes across the field or somesuch.
| QUOTE (Noctum) |
| This is for Starting Characters I have no issues with Character getting better than that... And I mis-spoke in the original post.. I meant Skill + attribute being 12 dice Max... With Smart gun and other mods I have no issue with 14 or even 15 dice I just feel that its not horribly reasonable for a player to start with 21 or 28 dice like I have seen. Reasonable is about game balance. (And yes Modified Attributes and Skills) |
If the maximum is 12 dice from skill+attribute then there is no incentive to play orks, trolls, dwarves or elves. After all, the elf ain't going to be able to get much advantage from having more than 6 in agility...
Now having 28 dice... the only times I've seen that is on this forum when people try making extreme characters. It's usually not a good idea to make THAT over specialized characters as you can do just as well with 16 dice in pistols as with 20.... thus it's a waste of BPs.
I agree with FotD. 12 dice is not a good place to be putting any kind of limit. I don't believe that hard limit is a good idea at character generation, but my warning bells start going off at 18 dice, which I think is more than enough for anything.
Even beyond that, though, it's the punishingly silly holes in the character, not the big dice pools, that are what I talk to players about. Having 1 Strength and 7 Body, for example. Or having no social skills at all, no Charisma, no contacts and enough high-tech munitions to take over a small African nation piled in their apartment.
I bug out over things which make you go "What? How does this guy live day to day?" rather than "Hang on, he's too good!!!". Shadowrunners get hired because they're pros, after all. Unless you're running a street level or "new to the shadows" game, the default assumption is that the runners, lovable screwed up dropout freaks to a man, are very good at what they do.
Even beyond that, though, it's the punishingly silly holes in the character, not the big dice pools, that are what I talk to players about. Having 1 Strength and 7 Body, for example. Or having no social skills at all, no Charisma, no contacts and enough high-tech munitions to take over a small African nation piled in their apartment.
I bug out over things which make you go "What? How does this guy live day to day?" rather than "Hang on, he's too good!!!". Shadowrunners get hired because they're pros, after all. Unless you're running a street level or "new to the shadows" game, the default assumption is that the runners, lovable screwed up dropout freaks to a man, are very good at what they do.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Personally I require certain conditions to even be able to try a roll. |
Well, just my two nuyens.
For me, at least, the dice roll is a tool used for the GM to solve the game mechanics, not something that the players uses. Let me try to explain... the player don't call for rolls, the GM did. In my table you see no player saying "I will scream, run nude and painted in orange and roll my stealth". If the players says he is running naked, painted in orange and screaming, i will present the game for him acordly (the only possible roll will be Perception/Listening rolls for NPCs). Is he says: "I will walk slowly, in the shadows, making as little sound as possible", then i ask for a Stealth roll.
Making a long story short... players don't call rolls, they call actions, the GM call the roll acordinly with the players actions.
About Min/Maxing and hardcaps, one way to minimize maxing is play with less players, since this way they will need to have a wider range of Skills, instead of each character deeply specialized on a field. I like the caps on character creation (results on more rounded characters), but i really despise then in game... from the player point of view, is too frustrating hitting a roof in any skill.
If the problem is your players (and NPCs) rolling dice with buckets, you may try houserulling that players (and NPCs) can trade many dices as they want in a rate of 4 per hit, and still rolls the rest. But remember two golder rules... 1st, what works for the players, works for NPCs too. 2nd, any rule that makes the game deadliyer, easyer to hit and cause damage, makes the game worst for the players.
The problem with doing that is that the rules then basically get down to "the GM tells you if you suceed or not". Can your awesome close combat troll beat up 2 guys at once, 5 guys, 10 guys, 30 guys? When does it become so unreasonable that a roll is not possible? Could your sneaky guy walk a few feet behind some guy, always avoiding his sight? If your dice pool is sufficient to sneak through the open field while naked, painted orange, and screaming then you are just that bassass. Much of the problem comes from the implementation of the game system. In earlier versions of SR, the 30 dice stealth adept was much better at sneaking, but still couldn't do the naked orange run because the penalties were too high but he was still much better at reasonable sneaking. In SR4, if you are much better at reasonable sneaking, you have a pretty good chance of being good enough to pull off the naked orange run as well.
I really don't like the 4 for 1 trade-in rule. I have used it in a couple scenarios when resisting damage for a vehicle, but for most everything else, I always call for a roll. In our last session, someone had 7 hits on 8 dice and then a few minutes later, 0 hits on 14 dice...the scenario would have been COMPLETELY different if we traded in dice...
Even as a GM, I enjoy being surprised by how each scenario plays out...going to trade-in dice...well, just wouldn't be much fun, IMO. And I still don't understand these "buckets of dice rolls". I have some pretty experienced players and many times they start out with 12-18 dice, but after modifiers, they are rarely rolling more than 10-12 dice...that's not all that many dice...
Heck, even with 20 dice on the table, when all you are looking for is 1s, 5's and 6's...you are not usually counting very large numbers...
Even as a GM, I enjoy being surprised by how each scenario plays out...going to trade-in dice...well, just wouldn't be much fun, IMO. And I still don't understand these "buckets of dice rolls". I have some pretty experienced players and many times they start out with 12-18 dice, but after modifiers, they are rarely rolling more than 10-12 dice...that's not all that many dice...
Heck, even with 20 dice on the table, when all you are looking for is 1s, 5's and 6's...you are not usually counting very large numbers...
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Jun 19 2007, 09:10 AM) |
| The problem with doing that is that the rules then basically get down to "the GM tells you if you suceed or not". Can your awesome close combat troll beat up 2 guys at once, 5 guys, 10 guys, 30 guys? When does it become so unreasonable that a roll is not possible? |
Never... but you will have the player saying "I will punch these 4 guys the same time with my two fists and two feets" and i will ask him to divide his DicePool oin 4 rolls with modifiers. What i can't, in my opinion, have in the table is playing saying "The rules says i can attack more than 1 enemy dividing my DicePool, so i will kick these 8 enemies at the same time with my pinky of the left hand (and the 8 enemies are 3 meters away from one another)". I just say, it´s impossible, no matter how many dices you would have to roll for that.
The same goes for the orange guy... no, you'll never be so good that you can scream in a empty closed room and no one hear or see's you, no matter how much you trained your Steath skill... in your exemple, if my player want to pass stealthly through a guard, he will have to describe his action like hi's doing so, not acting ridiculous.
I guess it's when common sense comes to play... and if a player can's trust on the GM common sense (and the GM can´t trust the player's), something is very wrong in the group.
(Sorry for my english... i'm brasilian) <- I guess i will put that on my signature, lol.
| QUOTE |
| I really don't like the 4 for 1 trade-in rule. |
I didn´t too. I just presented as an option. I just use this rule when i get a scene (normaly combat one, with more than one NPC party shooting one another) with so many people involved that using normal rules would bog the scene down if i did roll for every NPC.
If an action and associated dice roll seem ridiculous to the GM, then there must be a reason why they seem ridiculous. I think Raphabonnelli has it right. The GM decides when a dice roll is made. If the super-charismatic/kineticized/pheromoned face is acting like a jerk, he doesn't get to roll his Con skill.
End of problem.
End of problem.
Realistically though the running orange and face issues are more of a question of Roll playing vs Role playing. And that had it's own thread.
More likely to be an issue is something like the female superface putting the charm on an off duty guard to pretty much do their run for them, a super stealther making their way through a crowded office building, or the sniper hitting someone in the eye at a quarter mile with a snapshot, through smoke, twice in a row.
More likely to be an issue is something like the female superface putting the charm on an off duty guard to pretty much do their run for them, a super stealther making their way through a crowded office building, or the sniper hitting someone in the eye at a quarter mile with a snapshot, through smoke, twice in a row.
Oh, that's only the start of it. I'll use mfb's example, since people start to whinge whenever I bring up the Citymaster example.
The team's van is barreling up to the waterfront, only to discover their target's speedboat is already a klick out to sea, dodging its way at full speed through the Seattle waterfront traffic. The troll sam shouts: "Drek! I can't get a bead!" So, Mr. Lucky grabs the HMG from the troll, which he can barely lift, and takes a shot.
The lighting conditions are bad: Extreme Range (-3), Partial light (-2), With Glare (-1) and Heavy rain (-4, this is Seattle, after all). Mr . Lucky is in a moving vehicle (-3) as is his target; the GM assigns an additional -3 to reflect the boat's speed and pitching. The target has total cover (-6), and since Mr. Lucky only has the vaugest idea what he's shooting at, he gets the -6 Blind fire penalty. To make, matters worse, MR. Lucky has two Serious wounds, for 9 boxes on both monitors (-6). He's never even picked up an HMG before (-1), but he does know where the selector switch is, and cranks the thing into full auto for a narrow burst (-9, doubled to -18 because it's a heavy weapon and the gas-vent system is fouled due to an earlier critical fumble).
Mr. Lucky is at -53 to hit. He could try to aim, but since there's no point, he simply hauls the thing into the general direction and fires. He has a negative dice pool, so he spends a point of Edge, giving him 8 dice to roll. He could simply *buy* two successes with that; if he were to roll, he'd average 2.66 successes, rounded up to 3. Since his target is an average wageslave, he only has his Reaction of 3 to defend with, which will average one success-- not enough. And since Mr. Lucky called for a Narrow Burst, there's simply no way the target can soak.
On the one hand, this is a valid lucky shot. On the other hand, this is incredibly broken, an exploit running all the way down to the heart of the core mechanic. Not only can Mr. Lucky outshine a specialist in his specialty, he can do it eight times a game. What's more, it doesn't take much to convert Mr. Lucky the sam into Mr. Lucky the Mage, Decker, etc., etc.
This is just as bad as the naked orange yodeling guy-- probably worse, since the penalties don't add up to -53. But if Mr. Lucky' shot is valid, why shouldn't the orange guy's trick work as well? Orange tigers manage to hide themselves all the time, after all.
The team's van is barreling up to the waterfront, only to discover their target's speedboat is already a klick out to sea, dodging its way at full speed through the Seattle waterfront traffic. The troll sam shouts: "Drek! I can't get a bead!" So, Mr. Lucky grabs the HMG from the troll, which he can barely lift, and takes a shot.
The lighting conditions are bad: Extreme Range (-3), Partial light (-2), With Glare (-1) and Heavy rain (-4, this is Seattle, after all). Mr . Lucky is in a moving vehicle (-3) as is his target; the GM assigns an additional -3 to reflect the boat's speed and pitching. The target has total cover (-6), and since Mr. Lucky only has the vaugest idea what he's shooting at, he gets the -6 Blind fire penalty. To make, matters worse, MR. Lucky has two Serious wounds, for 9 boxes on both monitors (-6). He's never even picked up an HMG before (-1), but he does know where the selector switch is, and cranks the thing into full auto for a narrow burst (-9, doubled to -18 because it's a heavy weapon and the gas-vent system is fouled due to an earlier critical fumble).
Mr. Lucky is at -53 to hit. He could try to aim, but since there's no point, he simply hauls the thing into the general direction and fires. He has a negative dice pool, so he spends a point of Edge, giving him 8 dice to roll. He could simply *buy* two successes with that; if he were to roll, he'd average 2.66 successes, rounded up to 3. Since his target is an average wageslave, he only has his Reaction of 3 to defend with, which will average one success-- not enough. And since Mr. Lucky called for a Narrow Burst, there's simply no way the target can soak.
On the one hand, this is a valid lucky shot. On the other hand, this is incredibly broken, an exploit running all the way down to the heart of the core mechanic. Not only can Mr. Lucky outshine a specialist in his specialty, he can do it eight times a game. What's more, it doesn't take much to convert Mr. Lucky the sam into Mr. Lucky the Mage, Decker, etc., etc.
This is just as bad as the naked orange yodeling guy-- probably worse, since the penalties don't add up to -53. But if Mr. Lucky' shot is valid, why shouldn't the orange guy's trick work as well? Orange tigers manage to hide themselves all the time, after all.
Not that it affects your example, but I don't think visibility modifiers (partial light, rain, glare, blind fire) can add up to more than -6 (blind fire). How can you be worse than blind?
There I go, using sense again. It really doesn't alter the point, anyway.
There I go, using sense again. It really doesn't alter the point, anyway.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| But if Mr. Lucky' shot is valid, why shouldn't the orange guy's trick work as well? Orange tigers manage to hide themselves all the time, after all. |
But not in antarctica. If mr super stealthy orange man was trying to "hide" in a crowd of orange painted yelling people, he'd be mad to do anything else. SR is a system of rules, rules have loopholes. There is still something to be said for the spirit of the rules and of the game, and if your players aren't interested in the roleplaying spirit of the thing, it might be worth suggesting that they'd be happier playing chess.
In the boat example, you might cap the neg modifiers when they get Mr. Lucky's pool to zero, and then start giving the defender bonuses to dodge and such.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| On the one hand, this is a valid lucky shot. On the other hand, this is incredibly broken, an exploit running all the way down to the heart of the core mechanic. Not only can Mr. Lucky outshine a specialist in his specialty, he can do it eight times a game. What's more, it doesn't take much to convert Mr. Lucky the sam into Mr. Lucky the Mage, Decker, etc., etc. |
Well. At least for me, it´s really a faulty on mechanics, but a possibility in reality (since the shoot was not "impossible impossible" there is a line that the bullet could go, and range to hit the target)... someone with 8 on Edge can be just like LongShot from X-Men. But, the shoot is somewhat possible...
But, anyway, i agree that this may be a problem if happens many times in the game (not lucky shots, but one lucky character outshinning the others on their own speciality) would be terrible.
I don´t like houserulling too many things on my games, but i guess that a good solution for this kind of thing is apply the modifiers "after" adding the Edge dice on the pool. The character can still do some longshots, but can't do incredbly impossible shots (-53 poll modifier for me is a "impossible shot").
In the exemple: Let's say our LuckyLuck has 3 Agility and Heavy Weapon 1... his pool for the shot is 4 + 8 (Edge) = 12. With the penalities he still with -41. Well... the shot still impossible.
| QUOTE (raphabonelli) |
| In the exemple: Let's say our LuckyLuck has 3 Agility and Heavy Weapon 1... his pool for the shot is 4 + 8 (Edge) = 12. With the penalities he still with -41. Well... the shot still impossible. |
But some people like to have their really unlikely things be really unlikely, rather than impossible.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
But some people like to have their really unlikely things be really unlikely, rather than impossible. |
Then, i guess you will need to choose one approach, or the other, based on what you wanna for your game. I really would like to hear a solution that would balance these things.
Note that i didn't played any Shadowrun games before 4th Edition... so, i would like to know how those exemples would work on 3rd edition.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Something is wrong when you can piss on the Don's Mother and still convince him to be your best buddy or take off your clothes, paint yourself orange and run around screaming and still be able to sneak past sec guards. |
Ummm.... I'd be interested to know what negative DP modifiers you apply in those circumstances...
Pissing on the Don's Madre? I'd apply -12 DP at least, or simply say that he refuses to speak to you and has put a price on your head... Die rolls can't undo something like that.
| QUOTE (raphabonelli) | ||||
Then, i guess you will need to choose one approach, or the other, based on what you wanna for your game. I really would like to hear a solution that would balance these things. Note that i didn't played any Shadowrun games before 4th Edition... so, i would like to know how those exemples would work on 3rd edition. |
I've proposed in the past that you abandon the fixed-TN mechanic for when dice pools go negative, make all dice explode on 6's, and always give them 1 dice.
Because SR1-3 wasn't a fixed TN system, and all 6's exploded, there was never such a thing as an "impossible" shot, just varying degrees of unlikliness. I've personally seen people hit TN's of 38 when it counted. Dumping the core mechanic of SR4, and modifying it into a floating TN, is IMO the best solution.
| QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 19 2007, 03:41 PM) |
| Because SR1-3 wasn't a fixed TN system, and all 6's exploded, there was never such a thing as an "impossible" shot, just varying degrees of unlikliness. I've personally seen people hit TN's of 38 when it counted. Dumping the core mechanic of SR4, and modifying it into a floating TN, is IMO the best solution. |
I guess i will take a look on SR3 if i have the chance (the only SR that cames here to Brazil was 2nd, even the 4th has give me quite a trouble to get). The rules you're talking about somewhat reminds me of Legends of Five Rings... variable TN, 6 (10 on L5R) exploding and so on. Thanks for your reply.
But, if someone didn´t want to chance the entire rule system (only for negative dice polls or not), i guess a good option would be applying modifiers after adding edge dice on the pool, but giving minimum 1 dice for any roll using Edge, with 6 exploding. You will still have a chance, very unlikly chance, of sucess. What do you think?
**Edit: The second paragraph of the post. I've did writed on the "QUOTE" box. Sorry.
Only if you make all 6's explode. Otherwise, it becomes liklier that you'll succeed at low DP's by pushing yourself into negatives than you would leaving ti straight.
Another solution would be to take the New World of Darkness approach, and make it so when you go negative, you keep the one die... but you now need to score a 6+ for a success. This way, the odds of a success and critical botch are the same. It doesn't work as well with 6-sided dice, though; they're not granular enough.
Another solution would be to take the New World of Darkness approach, and make it so when you go negative, you keep the one die... but you now need to score a 6+ for a success. This way, the odds of a success and critical botch are the same. It doesn't work as well with 6-sided dice, though; they're not granular enough.
There is a point where the GM has a responsibility to the game. If one of my players pissed on the Don's mom, he wouldn't even get a chance to speak. Even if he did, no one has to listen. In order to sneak, you have to try to sneak.
If a character isn't trying he doesn't get a roll. If Mr Lucky made his character and played his character around his luck, I might give him the shot. Or I might raise the TH on it to reflect the ludicrous nature of it. I would also make sure there were times when he ran out of edge. Sinking enough karma and BP into your edge to get it to 8 is not easy. But he would also need a perception test just to see if he can find the boat, before he can even shoot at it.
If a character isn't trying he doesn't get a roll. If Mr Lucky made his character and played his character around his luck, I might give him the shot. Or I might raise the TH on it to reflect the ludicrous nature of it. I would also make sure there were times when he ran out of edge. Sinking enough karma and BP into your edge to get it to 8 is not easy. But he would also need a perception test just to see if he can find the boat, before he can even shoot at it.
Having played Mr. Lucky, I can tell you that I've never had to spend more than 3 points of Edge in a game. Also, trying to run him out of Edge either penalizes the other players for not having gobs of edge (they'll run out first), or requires specific targeting of a player, something which is grossly unfair if the player is abiding by the spirit and the letter of the rules.
I would have to say that my players run out of edge all the time. Even "Chance" our 8 edge Faceman. I reload edge once a run, and my runs usually take 2 to 4 sessions so a pure luck character is dangerous but not a game breaker.
If your having difficult with a high edge character consider using longer runs, or refreshing edge less.
If your having difficult with a high edge character consider using longer runs, or refreshing edge less.
This is another thing that the alternate rule in the book about using threshold modification instead of dice pool modification cleans things up.
In this case the whole "longshot" rule doesn't even neccesarily exist, you just add your edge and hope you keep seeing 6's until you clear the threshold. It makes some things vanishingly unlikely, but at least possible.
In this case the whole "longshot" rule doesn't even neccesarily exist, you just add your edge and hope you keep seeing 6's until you clear the threshold. It makes some things vanishingly unlikely, but at least possible.
I'll wager that "Chance" runs out of Edge well after everyone else does.
As far as thresholds go, the problem here is that thresholds don't apply in combat. If you try to apply them, you get some wonky statistical results.
As far as thresholds go, the problem here is that thresholds don't apply in combat. If you try to apply them, you get some wonky statistical results.
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