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Hat
Greetings,

My local group is interested in doing Shadowrun and I'm trying to come up with a campaign focus that will work. The challenge is that I have to accommodate probably 8 players. If I'm lucky, only 7, but that would be the smallest group. I have a premise I think may work, but wanted to get feedback from other folks here who have more experience. Here's my idea, tell me what you think:

Set in the late 2050s, the PCs are initially hired by the Dunkelzahn campaign to provide assistance and security. Post assassination they receive a generous offer from a Renraku executive to form the core of an internal investigation unit for Renraku. The job offer is prompted by an item in D's will.

The team led by the rising executive (NPC) is tasked with looking into security breaches, less than loyal employees and assessing the damage of runs against the company. The composition of the team as I envision it would be as follows:

Executive in charge (NPC)
Personal Assistant / Bodyguard (headware memory, skill softs, etc.)
Security Specialist
Security Detail (4) (1 or 2 Phys Ads and the balance cyber based)
Magical specialists (2) (1 Hermetic, 1 Shamanic)
Decker / Computer Specialist (NPC)
Drivers (2) (NPC)

The Decker, drivers and executive would all be added later after the election part.

Plots
Begin with the election to give the characters a sense of the world, a chance to make some broad contacts as well as help introduce rules elements gradually. The overarching plot ties to the Megaera/Deus AIs and eventually to the Doomsday plot that results in the big crash. The PCs will endure the Arcology and get mixed up in internal turf wars, investigate runs against the company and try and sort out the players and the goals with the finale being trying to stop or limit the effects of Winternight's plot to crash the Matrix.

I have the Driver's being NPCs as being left with the vehicles most of the time would get boring and as I'm anticipating them being riggers, there's less need/point for them inside. The Decker I'm leaving as an NPC as running the Matrix tends to require enough specialized focus that if I'm running the decker, I'm potentially leaving the others bored. It also opens the door to whether someone on the team has been compromised and what happens with them if they're plugged in when Deus takes control.

So, thoughts? Is this a reasonable campaign to handle the number of players and does anyone have suggestions or tips for handling a group of that size in Shadowrun?

I'd like to use SR4, but given the timeframe for the setting, I'm almost wondering if I'm not better off just sticking with SR3. Thoughts?

Thanks!

With a sweep of his...

Hat
Kagetenshi
I can't provide advice on SR4.

I would advise against having your players be involved with the corporations, as that goes against the individualist ethos of Shadowrun.

The big thing I'd suggest is that you demand your players gain an intimate knowledge of at least those rules they will use regularly. It's still difficult, but provided you can count on your players to handle most of the mechanics it's possible. You should also spend some time rereading the books and making sure you understand everything significant.

~J
Hat
Do you have any recommendations then as to a focus for a campaign that's going to require the active participation of 8 players? I don't mind doing something on the flip side including using the same beginning - D's campaign, then having the characters go underground or serve as deniable assets for the Draco Foundation etc. My challenge is figuring out roles that will regularly be used with that many folks. Most Shadowrun's are geared for just a few individuals to participate.
Kagetenshi
The real question is how good you are at coordinating actions in multiple places (we've only got four people in our Tuesday group, but we've split four ways on runs before). If you can handle action happening two different places, build runs that can handle (or demand) things happening in two places at once to get them into two groups.

The other good way is to get two or three PC deckers, tweak the rules for multiple deckers in a system, and get them coordinating to do their thing. You can do something similar with Riggers. Disadvantage is that it requires you (and them) to become highly familiar with the relevant rules--decking's easy, but badly organized. Rigging is more complicated, and it can be difficult to identify what you can ignore.

(As for campaign ideas, I'll brainstorm and see if I can think of something. My preferred approach is to just come up with a few disconnected runs and see if any ideas or hooks appear.)

~J
Hat
Interesting ideas. I know you mentioned avoiding the Corp scene. What do you think about an initial period of working for D's presidentail campaign?
PBTHHHHT
I'll have to disagree with Kagetenshi, the game is how you want to make of it. Going against the individualist ethos of Shadowrun? Some people might want to play from within the system. All the more fun when they lose their corporate sponsors and have to go rogue.
Kagetenshi
You can certainly play it that way, but be aware if you choose to that you are abandoning a core ideological component of the game. It's a caveat similar to the one I'd give if someone wanted to play a game without magic, or without megacorporations, or without Combat Pool. The Shadowrun rules (and in some cases the world) support it, but it isn't really Shadowrun.

~J
Lindt
Meh, let them work for a corp till they blow a run. Quickest way to be off retainer is to screw up.

I think the thing with 8 players is scope. If your hiring an 8 person team you should be looking at some pretty high profile targets. 6 digit payouts should not be out of the norm (as its only 12k each before expenses).
But with that many people, everyone can play anything, though you should gently suggest that prehaps your decker be more of a combat decker, your rigger know how to mess with a CSS system, ect ect ect.
Hat
I can certainly see both points. I think of Shadowrun as the setting as much as anything else so from that perspective corp or runner, either can work. Anyone in the shadows went off the grid at some point, and with a group this size coherence is certainly a plus. Rather than just saying they used to be in the same military unit or whatever, doing a before stepping out of the system and showing the ramifications of doing so, I think help set the mood. I very much liked the first 3 Shadowrun novels which showed Sam stepping out of corporate life and discovering the other side and what that really meant - and why that might be preferrable.

Dunkelzahn's death could certainly be a wakeup call especially if there are a lot of rumors around him being knocked off by one corp or another.

The group's used to playing Amber Diceless, so I'll need to check with them about how much they want things gray including the risk that the other PCs may have sold them out etc.

Thanks for the perspectives so far. Happy to hear more.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Wounded Ronin
Also, that's a pretty ambitious campaign. It's hard to predict exactly what would happen to the party that far in advance if you aren't going to shamelessly plot wagon. For example,

QUOTE

The PCs will endure the Arcology


how can you possibly know that they'll survive?

I recommend thinking small, putting in heart felt details, and letting what happens to the PCs direct the big picture.
Tiralee
QUOTE
The PCs will endure the Arcology


-Ah, the total party kill. *



With 8 people, and the necessary dice rolling for either 3rd edition or (<Curses, spits, makes warding gestures>) 4th ed, have you considered the basics.

You've mentioned a diceless RPG (Not familiar with Amber, sorry) but in 3rd (the only edition I play) you have a HELL of a lot of rolling. Even simple combat can take a while of getting used to the actual mechanics. Afrter that, it's your job as the DM to ride herd on a bunch of blood-frenzied psychopaths who have discovered what "called Shot" means.

And are you (the GM) going to roll hidden or open? (*TN's are for fudging, not for breaking*) It adds a lot of urgency in SR if your players roll high, and the GM rolls BIG when the stakes are deadly.

And rather than start off as corporate drones (no matter how flash, Naff or wiz their backgrounds are, they're corp drones if they're tied to the corps smile.gif ) I'd suggest you start lower down on the food-chain.
Yes, gangers are the usual standby but why not investigate the whole steaming pile of archtypes out there first? It's just that I've found that when players have a comfortable "Home" (Daddy Corp) that may look out for them, they lose a lot of their edge and the gameplay gets dull. ("I contact my superior and request..." etc, etc)

Anyhow, I'll post more if the muse of rant hits me again.

-Tir



* NOT kiding about the TPK. My players MAY be close to hitting Deus's little shop of horrors after ~4mill and a bucketload of Karma, each. (Yes, I also do cash-for-karma, it keeps the players so fraggin' poor:) All that AV ammo piling up is begging to be used in an suitable environment.
fistandantilus4.0
If you're just introducing the players to SR and the system, I would suggest starting with half that size for a couple of sessions. It means a bigge work load for you as you have to run games twice as often, but it's really hard to teach a group of eight people compared to four, as you can address each of their questions and walk them through it much easier.

The campaign sounds neat, although just remember that it will take a long time to cover all of that. You don't want to go to fast to get to one part by glossing over what you're doing at the moment.

And be careful in the arcology. I've had body counts in every group I sent in there, and I sent in one group that had every PC set to retire. They got their asses handed to them. But if they're up for it, it's a hell of a good time.

vegm.gif
jklst14
QUOTE (Hat)
The group's used to playing Amber Diceless, so I'll need to check with them about how much they want things gray including the risk that the other PCs may have sold them out etc.

If you're players are Amber veterans, they should be used to plotting and double crossing. I love that game and we were all constantly scheming against one another.
Good times smile.gif In fact, the only other game I've played where we had more PC-PC conflict was Paranoia....

ShieldT
For an interesting running a corp vs. running missions dynamic, check out Inspectres

http://www.memento-mori.com/inspectres/

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/reviews/10/

It's fun, too smile.gif
Slash_Thompson
I've run groups this large before.

the #1 recommendation is to split the team up as much as possible - it is nearly impossible to overestimate how much damage 8 shadowrunners can do all at once and the amount of force you'd need to put on the table to be a realistic threat to all of them at once is only two or three unlucky initiative orders away from a total party wipe.

that and tracking 8 players without a tactical map is nearly a nightmare in repetition and fuzzy math; while tracking 8 players + 15-30 bad guys with a tatical map rapidly degenerates from a roleplaying game to a miniatures game; sucking all the cinema and suspense out of the battle.

encourage the players to work as small teams on several things at once, especially when it comes to an actual run: I like Ocean's 11 (esp. the original) and sneakers as good examples of what larger teams look like on a heist. - there's three or four distinct responsibilities, typically one or two people per task, with another one or two people riding herd at a central base ('sup rigger and decker).

of course, this means that everyone needs to know at least the rules for what their character can do very well; and you need to know the rules for what every character can do. - if you're relatively new to shadowrun, my recommendation is to either split up the group at first, or start super rules-light (your players will do fine with this if you're used to AMBER) and introduce new rules as fast as you think people can understand them.
wargear
the most i have ever run for was 6 players with 2 npc team members. given a range of specialties and little overlap a team this size could easily work. i would recommend a lot of history together in their back story, a team that size without any trust is going to fly apart spectacularly. on the other hand, playing to that lack of trust can lead to some amazing roleplay.

as to where to start...an entire corp team isn't going to just decamp or go rogue without good reason, and even after the big d kicks it, the dunkelzhan foundation will happily snap up any team trusted by the wyrm. dunno. perhaps a number of retired corp types, throw in some age modifiers to attributes, obsolete cyberware and toys, and a mass of extra skill points. just a thought, and i may just use it myself biggrin.gif
wargear
Alternately, had you considered a spec ops team doing Desert Wars missions for a corp or national military. 8 players gives you most of a team, with the numbers filled out by red-shirts.
Slash_Thompson
QUOTE (wargear)
as to where to start...an entire corp team isn't going to just decamp or go rogue without good reason, and even after the big d kicks it, the dunkelzhan foundation will happily snap up any team trusted by the wyrm. dunno. perhaps a number of retired corp types, throw in some age modifiers to attributes, obsolete cyberware and toys, and a mass of extra skill points. just a thought, and i may just use it myself biggrin.gif

it'd be harder to do in 3rd ed, since there hasn't really been a recent AAA collapse (fuchi balkanized, leaving most of the assets still in the fold, just under different names and stockholders) but in fourth you've had Cross basically dissolve - leaving a large number of seraphim without employment.

in third it'd be relatively easy to make it the only elite team from a smaller corp, that sold out papa corp to the wolves in exchange for their 'freedom' (although you'd need to find a motivation as to why they didn't just take enough money for retirement - maybe a double cross?)

or even an ex-urban brawl team whose ratings dropped too low and were let go from their league wobble.gif
sunnyside
I can't help but notice that you've basically NPCed everyone who isn't a combat specialist (more or less).

Add that into the arcology and you've pretty much go yourself a glorified dungeon crawl.

You just want to decide if that's what you want.

If you do you need to think about how to make combat fast and exciting. If you play like many GMs do where you ask someone what they're doing, then putz around a little figuring out dice pools then slowly roll the dice for the shot, then dodge, then soak, then to see if the target handles the electrical shock etc etc you run the risk of players falling asleep, and not much will happen in a game session.

I'd advise deciding how you want to run combat. A large chunk of markerboard works fairly well. I'd rip off some art and print out sheets of paper with pics you can use for NPC, drones, and the PCs. Maybe back the PCs with cereal box type cardboard. That way you can move things around while scribbling wall and the map in general on the markerboard.

But the key is not letting them pause the game and having a fast dice mechanic. I'd advice whipping up a quick program on your laptop that will roll dice for you. Use that. Also don't let players pause to think. If they can't tell you what their player is doing off the top of their head have them observe in detail and go to the next.

Hopefully that will keep the action sharp. That worked well for me back in my dungeony days.
Demon_Bob
Having dice pre-rolled before the session helps speed things up but has never really worked for me.
Having a couple of forms, one for initiative, and stuff in slear plastic hoilders and using wet erase markers seems to work good.
I have rolled less dice and multiplied by 2 or 3 to simulate rolling more dice. This does, however, make the hits bounce around far more, and the possibility of getting a high difficulty more unlikely. I have also in several situations just done a quick figgure of the average hits to speed things up. (6 die with a target # of 2 should produce an average of 5 hits; target 4, 3 hits ect.)

The idea of running two smaller groups sounds good. You can ask them to supply mission reports for karma bonus, and let the other team read them. If a guy can not make it to a session then you can consider letting him play with the other group. Although having more than one player do this can cause some problems if you don't know in advance.
Slash_Thompson
I allow players and npcs to buy off hits at the standard 4:1 ratio for minor tests - this saves alot of time.

crucial shots will still get rolled, cause sometimes you take the risk to get the 'must hit' shot in.

I also don't permit buyoff on edge affected rolls.
sunnyside
By the way SR4 plays a bit faster than SR3 in my opinion. Especially if you buy hits. A part of that is that working out the exact modifiers isn't so critical. If you throw and extra dice or throw one too few it generally isn't a big deal. Having a TN of 5 instead of 6 is pretty huge, so people will debate you on it.
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