Hi. Had a couple of questions I wanted to ask everyone. The first involves spirits, the second is about Wired Reflexes.
1. Spirit's immunity to normal weapons works mechanically like Hardened Armor. Does that mean that AP does affect a Spirit's Immunity? (I have one player who uses APDS bullets to hurt spirits, while another player says it shouldn't work "because it's magic" and not how the game was intended.)
Along the same line, Hardened Armor. It blocks all damage not greater than its rating. Is this before or after the damage soak?
2. Wired Reflexes 1. I was wondering how common it is in folk's campaigns? It seems that if the boss is going to have any work done on his mook, it's probably going to be W.R. 1, because for the money (11,000 8R) it's the most cost effective.
Thanks everybody.
- Angel
Full Version: Spirit's Immunity & Wired Reflexes Avail.
Well since WR1 is a rating 8R and costs 11k then it should be as common as any other 8R 11k item. A grapple gun is an 8R item so your WR1 is as readily available as that, so anyone who has a grapple gun and an extra 11k is probably going to have WR1.
Unless the APDS fire DV exceeds the hardened armor rating of the spirit, it bounces off, regardless of the -AP of APDS.
Wired Reflexes is the most cheapest form of Initiative enhancement, but it grabs alot of essence.
Wired Reflexes is the most cheapest form of Initiative enhancement, but it grabs alot of essence.
| QUOTE (AngelisStorm) |
| Hi. Had a couple of questions I wanted to ask everyone. The first involves spirits, the second is about Wired Reflexes. 1. Spirit's immunity to normal weapons works mechanically like Hardened Armor. Does that mean that AP does affect a Spirit's Immunity? (I have one player who uses APDS bullets to hurt spirits, while another player says it shouldn't work "because it's magic" and not how the game was intended.) Along the same line, Hardened Armor. It blocks all damage not greater than its rating. Is this before or after the damage soak? 2. Wired Reflexes 1. I was wondering how common it is in folk's campaigns? It seems that if the boss is going to have any work done on his mook, it's probably going to be W.R. 1, because for the money (11,000 8R) it's the most cost effective. Thanks everybody. - Angel |
My group always plays that the APDS rounds can be the spirit killer rounds. This is because if you are going to use the "it's magic" line... then so is the armor spell and all that crap. Mundanes need as many chances as possible to deal with magic.
As far as how the hardened armor works....
After appropriate attack and dodge tests are made take the base damage value of the weapon and add net hits to the damage. Then compare that value to the (AP modified) armor. If the damage does not exceed the modified armor value there is no damage and therefore no need for the damage resistance test.
If the damage does exceed the modified armor rating... a damage resistance test using the modified armor rating + body is made as per normal.
Yes this means that things with hardened armor are usually either not hurt at all or messed up really bad if they have fairly high armor ratings. At least that has been the result I have seen.
As for the wired reflexes... It is not that common for joe six pack security guard to have it because it is not the most cost efficient.
Unless your guard is dealing with professional shadowrunners on a daily basis (which means he gets a crap ton of money anyway and would be a valuable asset and get ware...) it is just cheaper to give him some combat drugs to take if the runners are encountered. Combat drugs (while not have actual prices listed in the book so you have to make them up yourself) are much cheaper than cyberware considering the number of times the guard will encounter said individuals.
That is my 2
I'll need to double check RAW to back myself up but I'm pretty sure APDS affects hardened armor. And I think it should hurt spirits similarly.
One thing about cyberware is that a number of people just don't like the idea of getting dissected on a table and put back together with metal.
For example after the subject came up when I was reading an article on robotic eyes they're working on, my wife informed me if I got bits of myself replaced with technology I would be getting a whole lot less loving, if any.
People are like that. And many would keep the 11K for a new car and keep the wife happy.
One thing about cyberware is that a number of people just don't like the idea of getting dissected on a table and put back together with metal.
For example after the subject came up when I was reading an article on robotic eyes they're working on, my wife informed me if I got bits of myself replaced with technology I would be getting a whole lot less loving, if any.
People are like that. And many would keep the 11K for a new car and keep the wife happy.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| One thing about cyberware is that a number of people just don't like the idea of getting dissected on a table and put back together with metal. For example after the subject came up when I was reading an article on robotic eyes they're working on, my wife informed me if I got bits of myself replaced with technology I would be getting a whole lot less loving, if any. People are like that. And many would keep the 11K for a new car and keep the wife happy. |
Well, that may be the attitude of today but I think cyber would be a bit more acceptable in 50 years or so. Think about how people would feel about having organs transplanted 50 years ago? Plenty of people would do it but I bet some would be concerned about their "self" and whatnot.
-Strobe
People are like that now. In SR everyone and their mom has cyber. Not getting bits of yourself cut out and replaced with metal is what would get you no lovin. Right from 4th ed main book it says that even awakened people will have a few cyber implats. Every non-awakened person is going to have at the very least a datajack. most will have much more. Internal comms would be common, Eye replacements would be the norm (listing stats for glasses and contacts is just crazy), and cometic body mods are common. The only thing that would stop someone from getting WR1 is the legality. But in your gangs and other criminal element that isn't an issue.
Actually it was certianly strong in previous editions where there were social modifiers for cyberware, with wired reflexes specifically being mentioned (apperantly you move differently enough people pick up on it). That might not have made it into 4th though.
Sunnyside is right with that one. There used to be social negatives for having obvious cyber (like a limb). Headware is a bit more common I would think. With 4th edition I seem to remember reading that bioware and cloned limbs are more common when people have accidents and people with cyber are either poor or have old gear.
-Strobe
-Strobe
In the previous eds there was strong social mods for the dangerous cyber like WR and cyberlimbs and things like that. Thats probably more of a fear reactions. You're also going to get heavy social mods if you wear combat armour and carry a shotgun around to. In 4th ed cyber has become more common and cheaper. In 3rd they had the reflex trigger for WR that let you negate those penalties and turn off you WR, in 4th ed all WR have that feature. Cyberlimbs have become common enough that you're not going to get social penalties for them in normal circumstances.
Immunity to Normal Weapons grants Hardened Armor against non-magical weapons.*
Hardened Armor is explicitly affected by Armor Penetration.
Therefore, Armor Penetration affects Immunity to Normal Weapons.
All of this can be found by reading page 288 in your hymnal.
*Incidentally, Immunity to Normal Weapons explicitly works against all non-magical damage. Therefore, this power applies to shock weapons like Stick-n-Shock.
Hardened Armor is explicitly affected by Armor Penetration.
Therefore, Armor Penetration affects Immunity to Normal Weapons.
All of this can be found by reading page 288 in your hymnal.
*Incidentally, Immunity to Normal Weapons explicitly works against all non-magical damage. Therefore, this power applies to shock weapons like Stick-n-Shock.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| *Incidentally, Immunity to Normal Weapons explicitly works against all non-magical damage. Therefore, this power applies to shock weapons like Stick-n-Shock. |
of course, stick-n-shock has an AP of -1/2, which as you explicitly mentioned, means that hardened armor (and therefore immunity to normal weapons) is cut in half...
thus making stick-n-shock the ammo of choice for disrupting spirits.
from another post, please correct your Hymnal due the Lord Deity Figure has changed it. 
From another thread relating to the one of the issues
From Garrowolf's post:
From another thread relating to the one of the issues
From Garrowolf's post:
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
Okay I decided to email Rob Boyle - the line developer for Shadowrun We have a lovely argument going on Dumpshock that I has hoping you could help us with. Can spirits take damage from non magical electrical damage? Can they be stunned at all for one? |
| QUOTE (Rob Boyle) |
Yes, I would say they can take damage and their Immunity to Normal Weapons would apply. I would not reduce their Impact by half, though, since spirits don't really have armor in that sense -- the Immunity power is because they're magical and mundane attacks don't hurt them. I would also ignore the secondary effects of Electricity damage against them, since they don't have nervous systems. |
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
So there you go. This is the word from the top. |
Thanks everyone for the replies.
I had ruled that APDS did indeed affect a Spirit’s Immunity (as Aaron mentioned, it does say Hardened Armor is affected by AP), but I wanted to get a second opinion to make sure nothing had changed. Spirits, especially at higher Forces, can be a terrible foe, and I’m a big fan of the mundanes at least having a chance if they think ahead.
Also thanks Lunchbox for the Hardened Armor clarification.
In my SR campaign so far, Wired Reflexes have been relatively rare for most of the reasons you have all mentioned so far. The mooks the players are about to run up against are part of a small enforcement team that the Boss keeps around, thus the reason they’re Wired at a basic level. I figure that most run of the mill goons (security guards, thugs, and the like) are not Wired, while specialists, people who run into combat on a regular basis, and random gangers, bodyguards, and Shadowrunners probably will be.
Eventually the players will run into people who are using combat drugs, but so far they’ve only run into the extreme ends of the mook scale: the street goons who don’t run into “professionals,� and the previously mentioned professionals.
I had ruled that APDS did indeed affect a Spirit’s Immunity (as Aaron mentioned, it does say Hardened Armor is affected by AP), but I wanted to get a second opinion to make sure nothing had changed. Spirits, especially at higher Forces, can be a terrible foe, and I’m a big fan of the mundanes at least having a chance if they think ahead.
Also thanks Lunchbox for the Hardened Armor clarification.
In my SR campaign so far, Wired Reflexes have been relatively rare for most of the reasons you have all mentioned so far. The mooks the players are about to run up against are part of a small enforcement team that the Boss keeps around, thus the reason they’re Wired at a basic level. I figure that most run of the mill goons (security guards, thugs, and the like) are not Wired, while specialists, people who run into combat on a regular basis, and random gangers, bodyguards, and Shadowrunners probably will be.
Eventually the players will run into people who are using combat drugs, but so far they’ve only run into the extreme ends of the mook scale: the street goons who don’t run into “professionals,� and the previously mentioned professionals.
Just a quick summary of what's already been said. This was an issue in my game as well. There are two situations where you need to compare damage and armor. First is when damaging targets with hardened armor (which includes spirits and vehicles), and the second is when knowing whether you do stun or physical damage to a normally- armored person.
*Compare modified damage to modified armor.*
Modified damage = base damage + net hits
Modified armor = base armor - AP
In the case of hardened armor, the modified damage must exceed the modified armor rating or do no damage. (pg 288)
In the case of regular armor, the modified damage must exceed the modified armor rating (pg. 148) or do stun damage instead of physical.
These rules are a little scattered in the book. Hope this is helpful.
Dread Polack
*Compare modified damage to modified armor.*
Modified damage = base damage + net hits
Modified armor = base armor - AP
In the case of hardened armor, the modified damage must exceed the modified armor rating or do no damage. (pg 288)
In the case of regular armor, the modified damage must exceed the modified armor rating (pg. 148) or do stun damage instead of physical.
These rules are a little scattered in the book. Hope this is helpful.
Dread Polack
Well the current edition has more teeth to the cyberware is for the cheap and desperate set, hitting zero essence will now actually kill you.
SR4 pg 62,
SR4 pg 62,
| QUOTE |
| Under basic Shadowrun rules, characters can never have an Essence of 0 or less. If they do, they die. |
Bioware is alot more attractive then the chrome, and your other habits will make things interesting if you've got chrome.
Umm, unless my aging memory has failed me, the only real change from Third Edition is that Bioware also eats Essense instead of Body Index. As long as I'm remembering correctly in Third if you hit Essense 0 you also died with the exception of Cybermancy. (And we've been told that Cybermancy is going to make a comeback in AUG so I'm not seeing any real changes here.)
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) | ||||||
| from another post, please correct your Hymnal due the Lord Deity Figure has changed it. From another thread relating to the one of the issues From Garrowolf's post:
|
While it is still non-canon as it is neither RAW nor FAQ, it is as canon as non-canon can get. The email quote from Rob is not verifiable and while it is a statement of intent, it is still a House Rule(abet from the Man himself) until it makes its way into FAQ or Errata.
@Toturi well use your search skills here and find the topic is was originally posted in. Seems that those in that topic had no issues with its origin, nor the Poster.
By your words everything discussed here is house rule, since the FAQ's and or Errata do not address many of the issues.
To each their own.
WMS
By your words everything discussed here is house rule, since the FAQ's and or Errata do not address many of the issues.
To each their own.
WMS
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| @Toturi well use your search skills here and find the topic is was originally posted in. Seems that those in that topic had no issues with its origin, nor the Poster. By your words everything discussed here is house rule, since the FAQ's and or Errata do not address many of the issues. To each their own. WMS |
As I said in the original topic, I've no problems with that as far as canon is concerned. But it does not make it actually canon until his ruling makes it into the FAQ.
If I were to post a message calling upon an email I got from Rob, those that are in contact with him more than I, they would/could ask him if it was a real email, or was I talking thru my hat. Especially since it covers/covered an important issue/subject.
So far none of the Lancers et al, have disputed the email in question, they might not agree with it, but since it came from the Head High Honcho.....
You inferred in your post that the email was in question as to its, authenticity too. I am merely dealing with that inferrance.
WMS
So far none of the Lancers et al, have disputed the email in question, they might not agree with it, but since it came from the Head High Honcho.....
You inferred in your post that the email was in question as to its, authenticity too. I am merely dealing with that inferrance.
WMS
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