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Buster
I've been trying to figure out why my character would ever be a criminal in 2070. It sounds like a really great place frankly and my first thought is an intelligent charismatic mage could make a lot of money and have lots of fun just getting a regular mage job. Why the heck would he risk his life as a criminal?

The discussion about Emergence made me think that there should be an X-men theme throughout Shadowrun where prejudice against ALL Awakened characters (including all metahumans, magicians, adepts, and technomancers and including anyone who's related to such Awakened people) forces the characters into the underworld.

Every member of a team I've ever met was Awakened in some way, even the razorboy/girl was at least a physical adept. Even if they weren't Awakened themselves, they could be related to someone who's Awakened and therefore tainted by association. Besides why would anyone even play Shadowrun if they didn't want to play an Awakened character?

If the characters are hated and even hunted down, that would easily explain why they have no place in normal society. They would have the punkish attitude of wanting to lash out at anything corporate or establishment. Hence, Shadowrunners are born.

How would you incorporate more anti-Awakening dystopia in your games? And is this more fun for all the players?
TheMadDutchman
There's another thread the "Gibson-Style" one that touches on similar ideas.

the general conscencus seems to be that runners are at their cores flawed in someway that prevents them from going with the flow.

There is one thing that I did think of that wasn't mentioned: Down-sizing. IRL corporations downsize all the time. People get laid off after years of loyal service to their company. Maybe that's what it takes for a socially normal character to end up in the shadows. His magical research department was downsized and enough time elapsed before he could get another corp job that he had to find another way to pay the bills.

People don't think of firings in Shadowrun that often but if you look at how many changes there have been to the big 10 over time then (to me at least) it's easy to believe that a lot of talented deckers and mages and security guards and company men have found themselves out on their keisters with a small severance package and a "we'll vouch for you on your resume". If they were talented enough than instead of going to a new corp they started "consulting" which is just a cool way of saying shadowrunning.

Xenith
On a similar route, Ex-military types are likely common in the shadows. But as for normal people becoming criminals? Most reasons would likely be considered Personal choices. Revenge, seeking lost friends, or thrill. Thrill, the real deal, is likely a little hard to come by for someone with just another average life. Sure, digitized thrill is enough for most, but some might know the difference between the synth-Thrill and real Thrill and be addicted to the real stuff. An expensive habit if you will. This would likely be mostly bored rich/sheltered kids with a touch of naive.

Theres also the MASSIVE number of SINless. Running from a criminal past is a good one too. On and on.
Abbandon
magic is only half of shadowrun. I enjoy all character types, but mostly my people tend to end up cybered although if you include race in your awakened catagory some of them fall into that. I prefer cold hard metal cyber to bio also but they have gaps in each thing so you have to take both. So yeah I can say that I do not play shadowrun exlusively for the magical side of things.

As for everything being great. Imagine that even though alot of people are working that only 5-10% of the population has all the wealth. Everyone else is paying bills and just barely keeping their head above water. Everything is corp run, it would be infinitely worse than it is today. Imagine the actual content of a tv show in 2070 to be 10 minutes long per hour with the other 50 minutes nothing but commercials(unless you buy the premium tv channels that let you get 20 extra minutes worth of content per hour)

Now think about population size. Imagine you had to compete with like 100,000 other people for the same position. There would be people who would do or say anything to get ahead. People would be constantly getting paid to do stuff to other people or their property. Like making false records of Joe Blow looking up kiddie porn on company time.

Corp life is just as vicious as street life just on another level. You have got millions of people backstabbing each other to get to the top of the pile so they dont fall to the streets with the rest of the trash. More often than not people are gonna fall and those people make up the subculture and our runners.

What that one movie with jede law and uma thurman..attica or gattica or gallactica, gallaga? lol I forget. You have to be the most perfect, pure human to make it into this space program or something. Watch that for a glimpse at corp life.
Kyoto Kid
...Xenith has it, SINless. So many people fell through the cracks after the Crash. Without an identity you can't lead a "normal" life 2070. Most of course ended up in the Barrens (Seattle) and similar districts of other cities where the terms "law enforcement" an "public safety" are meaningless. One is forced to become what he or she may have once feared/hated in order to just survive.

I also agree with TheMadDutchman on Corp Downsizing and ex-military. This would release a pool of skilled (in some cases highly) people into the mix. Unable to get another job outside of a min wage StufferShack™ clerk, losing the flat or house, the family, and seeing that crime can pay, it would be all too enticing.

As for ex-military yes. Unless a Mercenary company snaps you up, there really is little else except maybe the Star, KE, and Corp run security (see above). Add to the equation PTSD for anyone involved in a conflict and you have a very good candidate for the shadows.

Of my "star" characters two are from the SINless category (KK & Da Brat) and one is ex-military (Kat Markova).
Backgammon
QUOTE

I've been trying to figure out why my character would ever be a criminal in 2070. It sounds like a really great place frankly

Uh. No... I think you need to read more fluff. The SR world is NOT a really nice place to live in.

QUOTE

and my first thought is an intelligent charismatic mage could make a lot of money and have lots of fun just getting a regular mage job. Why the heck would he risk his life as a criminal?

That's a very good first thought. I'll get back to this later.

QUOTE

The discussion about Emergence made me think that there should be an X-men theme throughout Shadowrun where prejudice against ALL Awakened characters (including all metahumans, magicians, adepts, and technomancers and including anyone who's related to such Awakened people)


Interestingly, it has been stated by fluff that in the UCAS, anything Awakened is feared and prejudiced. However, it's one of those things that isn't really reinforced in practice. If you want to apply strong Awakened prejudice, you'd be right to do so. Go for it.

QUOTE

forces the characters into the underworld.

Well, that's pushing it. People can live with prejudice, and cope with it, without becoming criminals.

QUOTE

Every member of a team I've ever met was Awakened in some way, even the razorboy/girl was at least a physical adept. Even if they weren't Awakened themselves, they could be related to someone who's Awakened and therefore tainted by association. Besides why would anyone even play Shadowrun if they didn't want to play an Awakened character?


Woah there. Playing with a group where everyone is awakened is not the norm, and it isn't supported by the fluff (not that there's anything wrong wt doing so, though). Your situation does not apply to most groups. Quite a lot of people play Shadowrun without playing an Awakened character. In fact I'd say the opposite: why aren't you playing D&D if you want magic everywhere?

QUOTE

If the characters are hated and even hunted down, that would easily explain why they have no place in normal society. They would have the punkish attitude of wanting to lash out at anything corporate or establishment. Hence, Shadowrunners are born.


I wouldn't say it would easily explain it. It takes more than a little social hardship to make someone want to shoot people in the face and steal shit. It's a good start, but it's not enough by itself.

This comes back to 'Why would my character run the shadows'. The answer is ALWAYS: Because he has no choice. How that 'no choice' came to be can vary a lot, though. For those born in the violence of the streets, or born SINless, or etc, it's an obvious path. You can't legally hold a job, you have no education to get a job, you've been scared by the violence all around you all your life, but you do have a skillset that scales nicely to shadowrun-level crime. Those are the easy backgrounds. If you want to start off with an Awakened character with a middle lifestlyle, that's another challenge. But the questions to ask yourself are obvious: Why can't he get a normal job? What's stopping him? To me, "cause he likes the thrills" is a poorly thought out gamer perspective on what it means to live in the shadows. It's not a lifestyle anyone chooses. It's all that's left when you have nothing. It's clawing yourself out of your grave everyday till your hands bleed. It's getting attached just to see what you care about burn away.
Buster
QUOTE (Backgammon)
QUOTE

I've been trying to figure out why my character would ever be a criminal in 2070. It sounds like a really great place frankly

Uh. No... I think you need to read more fluff. The SR world is NOT a really nice place to live in.

Why?


...
mintcar
If you've read as much Shadowrun sourcebooks as some of us has, some things become very clear about this specific issue: First of all, Shadowrunners are almost always SINless. The ones who are not have some strange yuppie dream of living as Shadowrunners, because they are in fact a cultural fenomenon which generates a lot of hype.

Now, what does it mean to be SINless? Well, it means you don't have an identity. And that's not by choice by the way. Sure, life seems to be pretty sweet for the corp wage slaves, albight not very free; but the life of a SINless is not as hunky dory. The SINless population is huge, and they are not recognised by any laws or governments. They live in so called Z-zones, were the police rarely visits, and the syndicates and gangs make the rules. The corps like it that way. It provides a safety valve for societies misfits and have-nots. They can wall off the unwanted elements, and they can have a back yard in which to conduct their own shady buisness. Shadowrunners exists because the corps wants them to. It's the most profitable occupation for a SINless person unless you sign up directly for a syndicate or get recruited as an asset for a corp.

Being recruited by a corp is the only way to get a bonafied SIN if you are born SINless. If you ask the government for a SIN they will give you a criminal SIN, which just gets you less freedom, not more rights. A lot of Shadowrunners live pretty good lives in the fiction, but they do so because the became criminals and got themselves a lot of money, then managed to get themselves forged identities and enough allies in high places not to get brought in by the law.

That's how you justify being a criminal in Shadowrun.
mintcar
One other thing: Because the number of highly skilled criminals in the underworld of Shadowrun is so large (again: because the corps have designed it that way, so they can have a lot of deniable assets), that changes a lot of things. It becomes a lot easier to get caught up in that world then it is in real life, as it is larger.

If you are a corporate hacker who stumbles upon some very sensitive data and your employer wants you dead, there's actually a chance that you know someone who knows someone who can wipe out all signs of your previous existence and set you up with a new identity. Well, that would make you SINless (even though you've jumped the dirt poor part, were you can't even take into a motel because you don't even have a credstick with a false SIN on it). And because the people who helped you have the contacts to make something out of that data you stumbled upon, chances are you will deal with them some more and find a new spot for yourself in the underworld.

This is just an example. But the main things to keep in mind is the large areas of urban wasteland called "barrens" that you can find in any sprawl in Shadowrun—and the large number of skilled criminals AKA Shadowrunners. These things are real forces within the world that has plenty of justification. If you understand the concepts you should have no problem finding the role of your characters.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 23 2007, 01:41 PM)
QUOTE

I've been trying to figure out why my character would ever be a criminal in 2070. It sounds like a really great place frankly

Uh. No... I think you need to read more fluff. The SR world is NOT a really nice place to live in.

Why?


...

I'm actually so befuddled by why you think the SR world is good, that I'm going to have to ask YOU to explain why you think it's so great. I honestly don't know why you think SR's world is "a really great place". I'll be able to better answer you then.
Buster
QUOTE (mintcar)
If you've read as much Shadowrun sourcebooks as some of us has, some things become very clear about this specific issue: First of all, Shadowrunners are almost always SINless. The ones who are not have some strange yuppie dream of living as Shadowrunners, because they are in fact a cultural fenomenon which generates a lot of hype.

Now, what does it mean to be SINless? Well, it means you don't have an identity. And that's not by choice by the way. Sure, life seems to be pretty sweet for the corp wage slaves, albight not very free; but the life of a SINless is not as hunky dory. The SINless population is huge, and they are not recognised by any laws or governments. They live in so called Z-zones, were the police rarely visits, and the syndicates and gangs make the rules. The corps like it that way. It provides a safety valve for societies misfits and have-nots. They can wall off the unwanted elements, and they can have a back yard in which to conduct their own shady buisness. Shadowrunners exists because the corps wants them to. It's the most profitable occupation for a SINless person unless you sign up directly for a syndicate or get recruited as an asset for a corp.

Being recruited by a corp is the only way to get a bonafied SIN if you are born SINless. If you ask the government for a SIN they will give you a criminal SIN, which just gets you less freedom, not more rights. A lot of Shadowrunners live pretty good lives in the fiction, but they do so because the became criminals and got themselves a lot of money, then managed to get themselves forged identities and enough allies in high places not to get brought in by the law.

That's how you justify being a criminal in Shadowrun.

That makes sense to me, I like that too. If you can't get a legitimate SIN unless you're born in the corp world, you'll be sweating like a non-legacy trying to get into Yale.
hyzmarca
Remember, wageslave isn't just a fun slang term. It is the literal truth. While corporate employees get paid, they are most certainly slaves. This is the whole point of the voluntary extraction. In the fifth world, you can quit your job at a moment's notice, though thirty-day notice is polite, because of laws that protect against involuntary servitude. In the Sixth World, if you try to quit your job then your boss will shoot you in the face and he'll be perfectly within his legal rights to do so. Corporate security guards exist to keep the employees in as much as to keep the criminals out, really.

Shadowrunners have freedom. The corporation doesn't tell them when to eat and when to pee, and this can be very tempting to those who would otherwise be chained to the great corporate machine.
fistandantilus4.0
Employees have contracts with corps in SR. They sign that contract, they have to work for them. A lot like endentured servitude used to work. They had to work it off. Once they did, everything was fine. But until then, they're effectively owned.
hyzmarca
Those employment contracts are drawn up by slick corporate lawyers. Between the legal latin and the microcroscopic print, I pretty sure that a corporation can extend the term of employment indefinably if it so desires.
Ravor
Hell, between the deducted "Benefits", interest on those corp loans, and paying for the cyberware/drugs/equipment (You don't actually think that the corp provides that Gun/Armor/Radio/ect to their Sec Guards for free do you just because they aren't allow to leave the building with the equipment do you?) that is required just to hold a job its quite possible that your grandchildren will still be paying off your Contract unless they are Execs...
Method
I think its also important to keep in mind that corporations are about productivity.

Money is the bottoms line. If your are Ted Johnson, a middle manager for Corp X, the last thing you want is an "auditor" to visit your little corner of the company. And when I say "auditor" I'm talking about corporate executives that call thier offical kill totals "success rates". Imagine that kind of stress.

Plus, your reward for moving up in the corp is having more and more people trying to take you down. So your choice is to wallow in a low paying job as a pee-on or strive desperately to attain a place in middle managment, at the risk of loosing your life. It is literally a life threatening occupation. And dead employees don't collect retirement.

Downsizing (as mentioned above) would be an ever present danger. The primary goal of any corporation is to make the same amount of crap with less employees to pay.

And as for the vast SINless population: well the corps need a consumer base to sell all that crap to right? They just don't want to deal with all the expensive social issues that come with supporting a free population.

Now imagine that you live in a motel room a little larger than a coffin. You are probably sick, but you can't afford both medical attention and the crappy beef flavored tofu paste, so you have to choose between eating and suffering. And if you don't make your rent by next week the hotel manager is going to pass your name on to his "boss", who is probably the leader of an underworld organization that employs very large angry men for just such an occasion.

Life in SR would suck.
Wakshaani
Now, it should be noted that, if you have money, it *can* be a great place to live. Robotic housecleaners, Trid and, for more expensive entertainment, SimRecreation, low traffic problems, shopping nicities, safety and job security, nice place to live, and so on.

But if you're not at least middle class, you're not doing so well.

But if you've got money?

*Fantastic*.
Darkest Angel
Back in the old days of the "Neo Anarchist's Guide's", being a runner wasn't just a means to an end, it was a political statement, it was fighting the corps and their hold over people, and using corp money to do it. One of my old characters, an ex military Dragonslayer Shaman who had been based in Chicago saw there how the corps and government worked first hand; favouring their own and leaving the rest to rot, reviled by that, she realised who the real monsters were and took to the streets.

I really have no idea why you think it's a 'nice place', I mean sure there are flat screen TVs, fully automated self stocking fridge freezers and Felix the Synthcat as described in SSG, but those are for the rich execs, not street scum like runners. Bug City is a prime example of just where government and corporate priorities lie - save the VIPs and Technology, nuke the locals.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
Now, it should be noted that, if you have money, it *can* be a great place to live. Robotic housecleaners, Trid and, for more expensive entertainment, SimRecreation, low traffic problems, shopping nicities, safety and job security, nice place to live, and so on.

But if you're not at least middle class, you're not doing so well.

But if you've got money?

*Fantastic*.

IMO, you have to be ABOVE middle-class to be happy. Cause middle class is not happy, they are very much unhappy and unfulfilled. They simply have enough high-tech entertainment to blow their minds into oblivion on their off hours. But at least they don't have to worry about starving to death or being killed by a pack of rats. Unless they get fired. The teeming masses of the poor and SINless serves as a grim reminder that The Corporation protects you from the horrors of the 6th world. But what they give, they can take away. Better work hard.

The CEOs and upper management, they do what they want. No laws, no limits. Of course, again, you have to fight tooth and nail for your position.
Wakshaani
Oh no, the middle class guys have all the goodies, the trouble is that they can't afford it and are in debt up to their eyebrows. Lose your job and it alll goes away.

But as long as you don't think about it, you'll be fine. smile.gif
mintcar
QUOTE (Buster @ Jun 23 2007, 02:54 PM)
QUOTE (mintcar @ Jun 23 2007, 02:02 PM)
If you've read as much Shadowrun sourcebooks as some of us has, some things become very clear about this specific issue: First of all, Shadowrunners are almost always SINless. The ones who are not have some strange yuppie dream of living as Shadowrunners, because they are in fact a cultural fenomenon which generates a lot of hype.

Now, what does it mean to be SINless? Well, it means you don't have an identity. And that's not by choice by the way. Sure, life seems to be pretty sweet for the corp wage slaves, albight not very free; but the life of a SINless is not as hunky dory. The SINless population is huge, and they are not recognised by any laws or governments. They live in so called Z-zones, were the police rarely visits, and the syndicates and gangs make the rules. The corps like it that way. It provides a safety valve for societies misfits and have-nots. They can wall off the unwanted elements, and they can have a back yard in which to conduct their own shady buisness. Shadowrunners exists because the corps wants them to. It's  the most profitable occupation for a SINless person unless you sign up directly for a syndicate or get recruited as an asset for a corp.

Being recruited by a corp is the only way to get a bonafied SIN if you are born SINless. If you ask the government for a SIN they will give you a criminal SIN, which just gets you less freedom, not more rights. A lot of Shadowrunners live pretty good lives in the fiction, but they do so because the became criminals and got themselves a lot of money, then managed to get themselves forged identities and enough allies in high places not to get brought in by the law.

That's how you justify being a criminal in Shadowrun.

That makes sense to me, I like that too. If you can't get a legitimate SIN unless you're born in the corp world, you'll be sweating like a non-legacy trying to get into Yale.

Well, it's not exactly like that. There is still nations, and you can have a SIN courtesy of say, UCAS, if you are born a citizen—and maybe if you have a credible citizenship somewere else and go through all the red tape.

It's just that the corps are a lot more scruple free, or rather a lot more efficient, then nations are. They will fix you a ligitimate identity if they think they can use you. Nations wont, mostly because of byrocrasy.

PS: I got a PM from SL James about that Dunkelzahn had suggested a change to this (carried out by Haeffner I suppose), so from then on you can get a ligit SIN if you are vouched for by two SINers, among other things. But my guess is that this is just a loophole legislation that lets the government accept certain types and reject others. Think illigal immigrants in the US. There's legaly a way to get a citizenship, but it wont happen anytime soon for most people.

edit: By the way, has James gotten himself banned again? I can't reply to the PM because "the reciever does not have premission to use that service". What's he done now? nyahnyah.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
After the second crash, there were SIN Amnesty Programs - and anybody that really wanted could get one.
Ravor
Yeah but were they a real and effective outreach to the masses or were they just a half-hearted PR Spin doomed to failure when everyone knew from the start that only the wealthy would get SINs?
mintcar
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
After the second crash, there were SIN Amnesty Programs - and anybody that really wanted could get one.

Yeah, because random people everywere lost their identities and everything they owned in the crash. In the aftermath some people who were previously stuck as SINless suddenly had lives they never dreamed of and some unsuspecting Joe Avarages had their lives destroyed and were never rescued by the programs. At least that's how I read it.
Backgammon
On paper, maybe. But I'm pretty sure the jobless, near feral people from the Barren did not get SINs. Not that it would change their lives much if they had one, really. Having a SIN but no money is pretty much the same as having no SIn and no money, really.
Rotbart van Dainig
In fact, they did. That's the reason for the existance of the ACHE.

It's a giant social housing project to take care of all those new citizens that formerly occupied the barrens.
Ravor
Its been awhile since I read my copy of Runner Havens, but I always assumed that the ACHE was meant to handle the homeless runoff created by Seattle's decline into a second or third rate plex, but I could easily be wrong.
Wakshaani
I'm reminded that I need to put together that "Cash and Carry" article about paper money in 2070.

The basic concept being that there was a push for "Emergency funds" for if there was a Crash 3.0, so, people started hanging on to a bit of paper and how the lower rung already did ... the Zero in Philly, for example, is barter, but the edges take cash, as do the slums outside the Zero. The idea caught on and now a few stores, here and there, take cash (Gasp!), tho not anywhere past Low lifestyle.

Of course, it also refactors the economy a bit, pushing the UCAS dollar value up against the Nuyen ... Japan no longer has five of the Big Eight ... Now they're just three of the Big Ten, with the UCAS + California Free State matching them and S-K as the biggest on the block. As such, it sets the exchange rate to 100 Nuyen for 110 UCAS dollars. (Basicly, if you buy in dollars, you get a 10% discount.)

But I digress.

Keeping cash flowing along the lowest rung of society is a big help, for when the SINless need to get something like life. Jeans, T-shirts, soybeer, and a game of pool on the corner (And, of course, cheap blow and Beetles) ... a little untraceable cash for the scum and runners.
hyzmarca
I do imagine that certified cred would be uneffected by a crash since it exists entirely as data on the credstick with no ties to any bank account.

QUOTE (mintcar)
PS: I got a PM from SL James about that Dunkelzahn had suggested a change to this (carried out by Haeffner I suppose), so from then on you can get a ligit SIN if you are vouched for by two SINers, among other things. But my guess is that this is just a loophole legislation that lets the government accept certain types and reject others. Think illigal immigrants in the US. There's legaly a way to get a citizenship, but it wont happen anytime soon for most people.

edit: By the way, has James gotten himself banned again? I can't reply to the PM because "the reciever does not have premission to use that service". What's he done now?


And I recieved a PM from him mentioning how the Business Recognition Accords require that any escaped wageslave be arrested and extradited back to his corporation of origin, where the corp can punish him in any way it sees fit, including face-shooting.

This is true in the UCAS and practically every other country, so if any law enforcement official runs an escaped wage-slave's real ID, he's going back and the corp will not be too happy.

This is rather similar to fugitive slave laws in the Free States pre Civil War.
Jaid
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I do imagine that certified cred would be uneffected by a crash since it exists entirely as data on the credstick with no ties to any bank account.

sure, but what are you gonna transfer it to? without a computer system to recognise and authorise that credstick, it's just a piece of junk.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 23 2007, 07:55 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 23 2007, 07:52 PM)
I do imagine that certified cred would be uneffected by a crash since it exists entirely as data on the credstick with no ties to any bank account.

sure, but what are you gonna transfer it to? without a computer system to recognise and authorise that credstick, it's just a piece of junk.

Simple. You transfer it to another certified credstick.
There is no difference between people trading numbers on a stick and people trading numbers on pieces of paper. In the end, both are the same meaningless numbers. And the old rules for counterfeiting certified cred actually made it more difficult than counterfeiting paper currency. Anyone with a high-quality printer can counterfeit paper money.
kzt
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 23 2007, 07:55 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 23 2007, 07:52 PM)
I do imagine that certified cred would be uneffected by a crash since it exists entirely as data on the credstick with no ties to any bank account.

sure, but what are you gonna transfer it to? without a computer system to recognise and authorise that credstick, it's just a piece of junk.

Simple. You transfer it to another certified credstick.

And why can't you simply encode a value on a "certified" credstick given this?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 23 2007, 05:58 PM)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 23 2007, 07:55 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 23 2007, 07:52 PM)
I do imagine that certified cred would be uneffected by a crash since it exists entirely as data on the credstick with no ties to any bank account.

sure, but what are you gonna transfer it to? without a computer system to recognise and authorise that credstick, it's just a piece of junk.

Simple. You transfer it to another certified credstick.

And why can't you simply encode a value on a "certified" credstick given this?

Because certified credsticks use pain-in the ass security algorithms and checksums that are difficult to crack in addition to physical anti-tamper measures.

A hacker with advanced electronics skills, a toolkit, and a great deal of spare time could successfully counterfeit certified cred. Anyone who knows how to push a button could walk into a kinkos, slap a $10 onto a two-sided color copier, a come out several thousand dollars richer.
Samantha
Just as recent security involving paper currency in the US has gone up a lot (Including various hidden images, specific cloth-paper ratios, and ink), I'm sure that SR paper currency is beyond pressing a button on a copier and spending said copies. Especially since it'd be easily noticed that it was a copied peice of paper.
Backgammon
The Nuyen is an *entirely* electronic currency. There are *no* paper bills of it at all. Never was, never will be.

Other currencies, such as Corp Scrip or the UCAS Dollar, have paper currencies, though. In the Barrens, with the SINless, barter is the order of the day. Certified Nuyen cred, UCAS and Corp paper, a goat, your daughter, etc. Whatever has value to the person you're dealing with is currency, and that varies from person to person.
Samantha
I believe we're discussing possible production of paper currency should a major crash happen. And when I see Major Crash, I think large EMP blasts and lack of any networking.

But that's just me.
hyzmarca
Improvements to scanner and printer technology should make sopying security features much more easily, with hologram and foil copiers, for example. However, the real reason why counterfeiting small bills is so easy is that people don't bother to check small bills. Sure, it would pass inspection from an automated money scanner, but 9 out of 10 convenience store clerks won't bother inspecting it, and that is what matters.
With certified cred, you don't have to worry about inspecting it. The credstick does all the work for you, meaning that a counterfeiter needs to be perfect in order to counterfeit certified cred.
Samantha
But since it's so perfect, no one would ever check if it was fake. You could tamper with credstick technology so that it never actually CHECKED how much you had or if it was real. Although I'm sure that's nigh impossible.
Backgammon
I assume that any paper currency would have electronic chips, RFID-style, woven into the frabric in Shadowrun. Pretty easy to read it and make sure it's real, very hard to hack. So even if you print real looking facsimiles, the chips will give you away.
Samantha
I've yet to see an RFID I couldn't crack. ..Unless it involves another hacker.
kzt
QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Because certified credsticks use pain-in the ass security algorithms and checksums that are difficult to crack in addition to physical anti-tamper measures.

A hacker with advanced electronics skills, a toolkit, and a great deal of spare time could successfully counterfeit certified cred. Anyone who knows how to push a button could walk into a kinkos, slap a $10 onto a two-sided color copier, a come out several thousand dollars richer.

Since I don't have to physically present the "certified credstick" the physical security stuff isn't a major issue. I can just peel the chip out.

And all the "security algorithms and checksums" take the average teen hacker with a decent computer less than a minute to completely nuke. They are all form of encryption and hence worthless.

And unlike trying to pass hundreds of amateur counterfeit $10 bills one at a time, with the need to fool hundreds of people, you only need to succeed once to win the prize. Once you have anonymously copied the anonymous credstick you hacked onto your unhacked anonymous credstick you win. It's now real money and untraceable where you got it from.

The only way to make "certified credsticks" work (sort of, but lets not go there now) is if acceptance is tied back to the issuing institution verifying them and doing the fund transfer. They know how much money is supposed to be on it and whether someone has used it.

It's not anonymous any more, but if you can't trust the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank to keep your secrets, who can you trust? cool.gif
hyzmarca
Except that the physical security is such that the chip will be useless once removed and the credstick will instantly call the cops if you screw up and the encryption is of suck a high rating that even the best hacker in the world will be unlikely to successfully break it. And, even if you succeed, the credstick reader that you use to make the transfer still gets to make an opposed test against our handiwork.
mfb
QUOTE (kzt)
It's not anonymous any more, but if you can't trust the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank to keep your secrets, who can you trust?

well, it's still anonymous. it's basically a check written by the bank, redeemable by the bearer. the only link to the person who uses the credstick is physical possession. getting the credstick from the bank to the person is just a simple double-blind setup.
sunnyside
Not as clear in fourth, but in previous editions and some novels certified credsticks were tied to bank acounts (certified ones like a certified check). It was just a matter that they weren't tied to a person (like a bearer bond).

So you could hack a credstick to say it has however much money you want it to, and if you're transfering money someplace without wireless it'll work just fine.

However when the person who got your money gets a connection to the matrix they'll be in for a big surprise.

Of course credsticks are hard to fake. But how to do so is in the rules and easily within the abilities of any respectable PC hacker or TM.
Method
Wow. This thread derailed quickly didn't it? nyahnyah.gif
Jack Kain
There is one simple reason for anyone to be a shadowrunner, I think you have all missed though some have come close.

Freedom.
For who in 2070 has more freedom over there lives then a shadowrunner?


QUOTE
Once you have anonymously copied the anonymous credstick you hacked onto your unhacked anonymous credstick you win. It's now real money and untraceable where you got it from.


You have no clue how credsticks work as RAW do you. If you copy a credstick and both the copy and the original are used. (in any order). Both sticks are flagged as having something funny about them and can't be used until the issue is used up. This is automatic, no mater how perfect your copy is that fact can not be escaped.

A credstick is just a link to an unnamed account that can handed to people as payment.
sunnyside
That's why mods have "split" abilities. smile.gif


Uh, mods can do that here right?

All I'd like to add to the earlier comments on topic is that it sounds like mages actually have it pretty good in the corp world, and can probably get a sin if they really want one. This due to there being a lot less supply than demand with them.

However they have Shamen, who frequently have major issues with corps. Also from the fluff some become disilusioned with the nasty stuff corps often do, like starve children in africa or whatnot. The irony of shadowrunning is sometimes lost on them.

And of course the need to hide is ever present all you need is one person in power who really wants you dead and you either have to go underground or probably wind up dead.

Etc Etc.

Bottom line is that especially for mages the "why you run the shadows" question should be answered and chargen, should generally be interesting, and often involve a flaw (like hunted or an addiction mayhapse)
kzt
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Jun 23 2007, 08:13 PM)
You have no clue how credsticks work as RAW do you. If you copy a credstick and both the copy and the original are used. (in any order). Both sticks are flagged as having something funny about them and can't be used until the issue is used up. This is automatic, no mater how perfect your copy is that fact can not be escaped.

A credstick is just a link to an unnamed account that can handed to people as payment.

Can you please show me how the RAW says it works like you say? To make it easy, I'll include the RAW. biggrin.gif

Certified Credstick: The modern version of cash or bearer bonds, certified credsticks are not registered to any specific person—the electronic funds encoded on it belongs to whomever hold it. Certified cred requires no ID or authorization to transfer or use. These items are popular among those who prefer to leave no papertrail. Th e maximum amount of funds that can be carried on a credstick is determined by its type (see the Certified Credstick Table, p. 260).
Ravor
I don't know, although I agree that generally speaking a Mage is more suited for corp life then a Shaman would be, it doesn't mean that every Mage is suited for corp life no matter how soft and enticing the Rep makes it out to be. Maybe its as simple as the fact that he can't stand the thought of having Handlers.


So basically I guess I'm saying that although I tend to agree that Shadowrunners tend to have something wrong with them I'm not going to put the Player who wants to play a Mage through the wringer any harder then the Street Sammy, or the Razorboy, or the Shaman, ect...

sunnyside
I wouldn't call it a "wringer". Flaws are worth BP after all. And ones that fit the characters backstory are more fun than an allergy. It's just that for a spell slinger the "born without a SIN" blanket reason doesn't hold up as well as it does for John Q StreetSammy. So there should be "a" reason. "Can't stand being bossed around all day" is sufficient.
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