Hi all. I've been lurking here for about two or three months now, and figured I might want to go ahead and post something... Anyway, these forums have really helped me with the SR3 campaign I recently started. I played 2nd edition a LOT in the 90s, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with SR3, and I find I've been doing a lot of re-reading.

So here's my question: Who uses the cash for karma rule, and what sort of exchange rate is acceptable? As far as I can tell the Companion mentions the cash for karma option, but doesn't give an exchange rate, sample or otherwise. It appears that the NSRCG uses 250 nuyen for 1 karma, but this seems far too cheap to me. And I may be interpreting the NSRCG wrong, as I'm still messing around with it and figuring out what it can do.

I'm thinking of going with something like 1000 nuyen for 1 karma, as that seems like it would allow players to "level up" quickly, but not too quickly. I'm basing that, though, on the money the group should get for their current mission (approximately 30,000 nuyen each). 1000 nuyen for 1 karma would allow them to buy up some skills and attributes without giving them too much power at once. I don't know, though. I definitely don't want to regret allowing the cash for karma option...

So if you use the cash for karma rule, what exchange rate do you use, and why?

Thanks in advance for your input!

The numbers I hear most often are 5,000-10,000 to one karma, depending on the level of your campaign.

Also, usually there has to be a means of converting, i.e. where the money goes. Some people have the PCs gamble it away (works great for Coyote shamans), give it as charity, and other such ideas.

Wow. That's much higher than 1000! See why I wanted to ask for input before making my decision!

Personally I still enjoy tying it to lifestyle (or other stuff spent similarly) payments they make in the month, typically carrying over the balance. It makes the characters act more realistically in my opinion.

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Though maybe your mage would go for concerts or win. or just a nice place, whatever.

In SR4 they have to get to medium to get any bonus, because SR4 is tight on Karma.

In SR3, where 10 karma adventures aren't so odd as I recal maybe, start giving out a bonus at low lifestyle.

The key is that the bonus comes at a regular rate instead of bursts and allows for a bonus without much possibilty for getting out of hand.

So an example from that for you might be.

first karma of the month 2000
second karma of the month +3000 (total 5000)
third karma for the month +5000 (total 10000)
fourth karma of the month +10,000 (total 20000)
and so on.

You get the idea. It keeps them all greedy because some karma is within their grasp and they could get more if they could get more money, but if they get a big fat windfall it isn't going to result in a sudden burst of 30 karma.

I have always put it between 8k and 12k per. Roughly 2x what turning karma into cash would be.
However, the number gets set when my player tells me HOW he intends to turn his money into life experience. Training is a popular one, though its more turning cash into skills by way of karma. Making large anonymous donations to charities is good, if a bit chiche'. However, the best example I have heard was... I think Kage said it at one time. The shamen who just goes into a casino and blows 40 grand on the tables because it sounded like a good idea at the time, and his totem (one that would be delighted to see such total abandon of fiscal sense) rewards him.

Actually, in the NSRCG you sell karma for 250 nuyen per point and buy karma for 1000 per point. Having karma cost more than it sells for is about right, but the actual values depend on the money rewards in your game. In a cash-rich game, karma should be far more expensive than it is in a cash-poor game.

Personally, my favored method of earning karma with cash is to call up my fixer and say "I'm looking to buy some karma. Can you put me in touch with a seller?" Karma is a real measurable commodity. It is a spiritual commodity, but that doesn't make it any less tangible. Karma costs for bonding foci, quickening spells, creating anchors, and so on, are specific and based on universal constants in relation of the force of the focus or spell. These facts can be used to indirectly measure karma.

And there are rituals and Powers that can be used to freely trade karma between individuals, although some karma is usually lost in the transaction.

Karma is the only thing of value in the spirit realms and it is the standard form of payment accepted by Free Spirits. I imagine that Free Spirits on Earth have karma exchanges in the same way corporations have stock exchanges and that karma is bought and sold in large quantities every day.

Personally, I advise strongly against cash for karma. The reason is that should PCs accumulate large amounts of karma pool (IMO more than 10 karma pool) I feel that the game quickly fails to be challenging enough. Since that much karma pool allows for many second chances in the form of Reroll Failures I feel that it makes combat less exacting and tactical than it would be if there were no or less second chances. I personally try to give away as little karma as is reasonable in games and certainly as a GM I don't allow cash for karma.

I thought karma that was bought didn't count towards the Karma Pool..?

I like /some/ element of this - one thing that RPGs never seem to get right is advancement for regular folks. Y'know, I'm sitting here working and learning and getting better at my job but I don't have to run around defeating some uber-AI's drones to do so.

Cash for karma is a partial way of dealing with this at least!

While I don't really agree with Wounded Ronin (karma pool is powerful, but if your runs get longer and more involved it doesn't last nearly as long as you'd think. Also, the exponential growth of cost for multiple rerolls means that while you can no longer count on players failing any given test with a non-astronomical TN, it can pretty much only be done once or twice), I am of the opinion that cash-for-karma and karma-for-cash is a bad idea.

Also, I disagree with Xirces. I never seem to be able to learn anything unless I commit a few crimes first.

~J

Karma pool is a seperate and in my opinion sersiously annoying problem in SR3. Not doing cash to karma only delays it's onset, it does not mitigate it. I'd advise a houserule of some kind. Personally I had functional pool caps. By which I mean they can only use some much of their karma in the general way on an adventure. After that extra Karma pool die just sit around waiting to be burned on something.

I apologize for the full-auto reply... I was excited... I will restrain myself in the future!

Anyhow, thanks for all the input. For the meantime I believe I will disallow cash for karma. It seems like it would seriously speed up character improvement, even at outrageous prices, and I don't want to make the game too easy and thus reduce the enjoyment...

The best way to avoid "overleveling" with cash-for-karma is to throw large karma sinks and cash sinks at the PCs. Magicians are typically huge karma sinks, between initiating, creating allies, quickening spells, anchoring spells, bonding foci, and the like, there is little room for skill improvement. All of these things give the magician more options, but don't necessarily make him more powerful.

Adjusting the rules for anchors to make the magician suffer the drain at the time the spell is put into the anchor drastically increases their usefulness while creating a very large karma sink.

Giving the Samurai access to beta- and delta- grade 'ware turns them into giant money sinks fairly quickly while riggers and deckers and naturally giant money sinks. Drone Riggers especially, can be made to burn through expensive equipment quickly and often.

Likewise, karma pull can be mitigated by creating situations in which characters will have little choice but to spend or burn karma to succeed early in the adventure.

Not really—if the job pay doesn't cover expenses, the Rigger will stop taking those jobs and possibly move into just stealing cars. Without metagaming or explicit trades with Free Spirits, there's no reason a rational Rigger will go on a run that will cost more than the nuyen reward just because they can spend some karma for cash afterwards to make up the difference.

~J

A flat rate that isn't pegged to their income won't work. It'll always either be too low or too high.

Instead, peg it to their runs themselves.

If teh group normally earns 10 Karma and 100,000 Nuyen a month, then the conversion rate should be 1 karma = 10,000 Nuyen.

If, in contrast, they earn 20 Karma but only 5000 Nuyen a month, then the rate should be 1 Karma = 250 Nuyen.

Keep the rate on a monthly balance and it'll always come out fair.

For cash for karma, I usually use 1 karma costs 5000 nuyen. It is the rate charged by magicians to have an item bonded to you. This has become a problem almost every time I have used it in a long campaign. Eventually, the magician, or his ally, begins using Enchanting to creat orichalcum or Radical Gold for sale and converts the proceeds to karma. This is when the concept needs to be rethought or the characters retired.

For karma to cash, I usually set the rate at about the 5000 nuyen per karma point, too, just basing it on the above justification. But I can vary it. I usually have the PCs find a free spirit to sell karma to.

Sometimes to reflect market conditions, the environment, or chance, I have let the roll of the dice decide the rate af exchange, especially if things are starting to get out of hand. I ask how much karma they want to exchange, then roll 2 dice and multiply the sum of the result by 1000 nuyen. This results in karma being axchanged for 2000 nuyen to 12000 nuyen a point. This is all the karma that can be exchanged at that time.

In any case, I do not have bought or sold karma effect the karma pool, as that is from earned karma. (I have not seen anyone address reducing a characters karma pool for selling karma and wonder if it has ever come up.)

The times I've allowed people to buy karma with cash, there's been a limit that you can only buy up to 50% of what you earned on the last run.
It still let's people pull ahead, karmically, but it limits the rate.
I've found that characters separated by 100 karma or more are still quite playable in the same group, so even if someone buys all the karma they possibly can, as often as possible, the group is at 200 karma (300 for the one guy), before power gap could possibly, maybe begin to become a problem.

In groups I've been in the past the going rate was 20,000Â¥ per Karma, based on using spell points at character generation as karma and it costing that much to buy more spell points.

IMO, there are lots of things given stats that are as hard to define as what is love.

Another thread prompted me to think of how an organization might come into existence for the purpose of supplying anchoring and sustaining foci. Free spirits do not need to make a drain roll when spellcasting, so they looked promising as the ones casting spells into the anchors. The organization would need to find or create free spirits, and one of the simpler ways was to cast Increase charisma on the conjuror, have them summon the maximum number of spirits their Charisma allows, chat up, or whatever to hopefully make the spirit more likely to stick around on this plane when it is no longer bound, then quit sustaining the Increase Charisma spell causing the excess spirits to become unbound and hopefully become free spirits.

All this becomes silly when you try to quantify the Charisma stat. Like when the mage is choosing the force of the spell when he is learning it. Or even when we try to stat our own Attributes. Say the Charisma spell was F2. Could the difference even be observed? Evidently the spirits have their thumbs directly on the charisma pulse. Can they discern the differences better? Or do we just accept that there are a lot of concepts that we need to transfer into game concepts and try to quantify?