So I've started a new character that is a hacker/face elf and I've been reading up on these because I've never played either of these classes b4 and I've run across tutorsofts and instruction skill.
I've read up on both and its talking about learning tests but I cant find anything on what they are if anyone can give me a good explanation it would be much appreciated.
Full Version: Insturction and tutorsofts
main rulebook, pg 123 - top of the page.
oops, sorry, thats for instruction. one sec
as far as I can tell the only people that make learning tests are spellcasters and technomancers. nice.
Learning a new spell, pg. 172
Learning a new complex form, pg. 233
Skills and attributes only take as much downtime as the GM says. You'll have to talk to your GM about ways the instruction skill could come up in game.
But generally speaking, I guess tutorsofts are redundant.
oops, sorry, thats for instruction. one sec
as far as I can tell the only people that make learning tests are spellcasters and technomancers. nice.
Learning a new spell, pg. 172
Learning a new complex form, pg. 233
Skills and attributes only take as much downtime as the GM says. You'll have to talk to your GM about ways the instruction skill could come up in game.
But generally speaking, I guess tutorsofts are redundant.
Well, in order to teach anything, you need an instruction skill of at least 3 and the taught skill higher than what the student is trying to get to. I suppose it would be benefical if you took this yourself and trained your own team as it would save a lot of money, but that doesn't help you too much.
I have some house rules for training, basically filling in the gaps to associate trainers to availability and nuyen cost...tutorsofts are quite helpful as its usually easier to track down the soft and train, then to find a live instructor...
I have some house rules for training, basically filling in the gaps to associate trainers to availability and nuyen cost...tutorsofts are quite helpful as its usually easier to track down the soft and train, then to find a live instructor...
| QUOTE |
| Well, in order to teach anything, you need an instruction skill of at least 3 and the taught skill higher than what the student is trying to get to. I suppose it would be benefical if you took this yourself and trained your own team as it would save a lot of money... |
honestly I think you're reading that wrong. You don't need instruction skill to teach something.
| QUOTE (page 123) |
| A character must possess a skill at rating 3 or higher in order to teach it to another. Th e instructor must also have the skill at a rating that equals or exceeds the rating the pupil wants to achieve. |
you need a skill at rating 3 or higher to teach it to another. "It" = the skill you want to teach. It must be at least 3, and must be greater than or equal to the rating the pupil is trying to reach. Instruction is defaultable - it wouldn't make sense to require that you need a 3 in it to use it.
But, as it is now, Instruction is useless.
It's the only occurence of a 2 hits -> 1 extra dice rule...
It's the only occurence of a 2 hits -> 1 extra dice rule...
Yeah, you're right, I was reading that wrong...hmmm, that is going to give my players a cheaper way to train up their skills, as I was forcing them to find instructors that had at least a 3 in Instruction...
I wouldn't say the skill is useless though, it does give extra dice...its certainly not very efficient, though.
I wouldn't say the skill is useless though, it does give extra dice...its certainly not very efficient, though.
You're missing errata, page 264 is corrected in the 4th printing to say:
| QUOTE |
| To learn or improve a skill or skill group, the character must succeed in an Extended Intuition + skill Test, with a threshold equal to the new skill rating x 2 and an interval of 1 week (1 month for skill groups). A teacher can add bonus dice to this test (see Using Instruction, p. 123). |
This makes instructors quite handy in order to cut back on the time needed to improve skills. Your GM might just handwave the study times if you have a bunch of downtime, but a good instructor can cut weeks off the amount of time you need to hit the books (or gym, or whatever) to get that next level of skill.
Tutorsofts are also nice, though using the Instruction rules is pretty strange for a piece of software - you roll twice the rating, then add half the hits to another roll. While this is the same mechanic used with a meat instructor, I'd prefer to see the prices and availability bumped to reflect adding the straight rating to the test to learn the skill. Simple. Rating = Modifier. While this makes a high rating tutorsoft more valuable than even the coolest single instructor - you'd pretty much need an elven instruction adept to get 12 hits on the Instruction test - you can justify it as being the product of an entire team of professional educators working for months to polish their full media presentation instead of just one guy one time over the course of a few weeks. Now that I think about it, tutorsofts really need a second rating to reflect how high they can take a skill, since that shouldn't be lumped in with how good the instruction is. Nah, too complicated. Maybe just make the 'softs specific on which level they work for. Instead of a rating 2 Hardware tutorsoft, a runner with 3 levels in Hardware already might need to buy a rating 2 Hardware (4) tutorsoft. That way you need to keep buying new ones instead of splurging for a high rating once and never needing to buy again for that skill.
No rules seem to cover multiple students, multiple instructors, or using both meat and tutorsoft instructors.
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I wouldn't say the skill is useless though, it does give extra dice...its certainly not very efficient, though. |
On average, it gets you 1 extra dice. That means... no effect on average.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
On average, it gets you 1 extra dice. That means... no effect on average. |
True...on average though. I understand what you are saying, but I still wouldn't deem it as useless...that's like saying my car insurance is useless, because on average, I will not get in an accident and ever use the actual premiums I have paid.
You won't see me building a character with Instruction, unless that is part of his background, but every once in a while, you may get some extra hits because of those dice. I know one of my players just ended up having to spend another week in training because he missed his threshold by one...so even having an extra die or two would have at least been worth it (to most people).
I guess I just don't like the term useless:) I mean, the skill is no more useless than Parachuting in most campaigns, right?
No, it's useless due to mechanical exceptions.
There is no other factor 2 in support rules.
A superhuman teacher with 18 dice in instruction grants a pupil 3 extra dice in average, and thus, one extra hit - for the first time. That's insane.
Without the factor 2, this would happen at 9 dice - which aren't exactly few, but acceptable.
There is no other factor 2 in support rules.
A superhuman teacher with 18 dice in instruction grants a pupil 3 extra dice in average, and thus, one extra hit - for the first time. That's insane.
Without the factor 2, this would happen at 9 dice - which aren't exactly few, but acceptable.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| No, it's useless due to mechanical exceptions. There is no other factor 2 in support rules. A superhuman teacher with 18 dice in instruction grants a pupil 3 extra dice in average, and thus, one extra hit - for the first time. That's insane. Without the factor 2, this would happen at 9 dice - which aren't exactly few, but acceptable. |
Again, I understand you argument and logic...and on average, you are 100% correct. But, "I" would still take my chances with that 18 dice instruction test and see if I can break the averages because to me and my group, rolling dice is part of the fun.
My best example is that in our last session, I rolled zero hits on a 14 dice perception test and then followed it up with seven hits on a 8 dice test...I understand mathematics, probabilities and averages, but I also know that in any one test, anything can happen...and because of that, I can't agree that its useless...
So, we'll just agree to disagree due to our differing perspectives...I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but you seem to be trying to make me abandon my view in favor of yours...
There is no gamble in learning (and, honestly - not that much enjoyment while doing so, either). It's an extended test, and thus will result in about average results.
If, as a player/character, I notice that there is no mesurable benefit from getting a tutor - I won't get one the next time.
If, as a player/character, I notice that there is no mesurable benefit from getting a tutor - I won't get one the next time.
smile on a dog 
Well, you still need a tutor to even begin to learn, I don't think its really a RAW option to just bypass the need for someone to train you. Sure, you can pay someone 50 nuyen/day for a week, have them default on their Instruction (or simply ignore the test), but you still have to have a tutor, AFAIK.
By RAW, a tutor is not needed.
Including the Errata? So, anyone can just go out and train up their skills, with no manuals, programs, tutors or anything? All it takes is time?
I guess I wasn't under that impression. I thought that some sort of "instruction" had to take place...whether that was in-person, a program or over the matrix.
I guess I wasn't under that impression. I thought that some sort of "instruction" had to take place...whether that was in-person, a program or over the matrix.
Including errata - that only specified training time.
A tutor should speed up learning time significantly... but that's not what the rules do.
A tutor should speed up learning time significantly... but that's not what the rules do.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Including errata - that only specified training time. A tutor should speed up learning time significantly... but that's not what the rules do. |
Interesting...well, those rules do suck:)
I guess I have trained myself with my own houserules and thought that how I set them out was aligned with RAW a lot more than they actually are...this has been a good conversation...
I DO AGREE that a tutor, based on RAW, does not speed up learning time signficantly...its not 100% useless, but it certainly doesn't do what the rules intended...
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