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Are there any rules for paying someone to Quicken a spell on you? Is it just 5000 nuyen per karma point? For example, quickening your force 4 increased reflexes spell would cost 20,000 nuyen?
I'd make it a bit higher than 5k. That is going to drain their karma and that is pricy.
Supply and Demand.
1% of the population is magically active. Which is, admittedly, a lot more than most people seem to think.
Of that, a good chuck are spellcasters.
Of them, a decent lot are initiates, even, but the group is dwindling fast.
Only a few of those actually know Quickening.
Out of those few, some of them might even know the spell you want. You could probably help finance them learning it, though, if you really want. Of course, that's going to eat up more of their precious, precious karma (which they always need and can never get enough of), leaving them with even less karma supply for you.
Which brings us to the last point, it's their karma, and they needs it. They needs it like the precious and you're the filthy hobbitses.
Anyway, the point is, quickening is going to be expensive. I'd put someone else's karma at worth more than 5kY to begin with, but when you look at the supply/demand issue.

I'd say you either work it out as a favor/deal with someone you know who can do it, or you charge it to your corporate expense account. If you can't do either, you go without. smile.gif
I guess my question here is, how do the corporate mages get karma? Or anyone else for that matter? Joe Mage that awakened 20 years ago and has been living in his grandma's basement learning spells and hanging out with MagesAreCool initiatory group is not likely going on runs, but he is doing "something". And that "something" is gaining him the ability to learn more spells and initiate, right?

I guess even though you are using someone else's karma, is 5K nuyen really that low for someone that has to be getting a steady supply of it anyways?
Maybe it's not canon, but I never consider that anyone other than the PCs get karma. It's a game mechanic, not a world mechanic, and is used as a representation of experience earned and learned while going through life. To that end, I would say that someone offering their services when tattooing quickened spells, for example, doesn't think to themselves, "This is going to cost me 10 karma!" they think to themseles, "I'm going to spend X on supplies and Y hours tattooing this chump. Plus, there's the added bonus of my astral signature all over this guy's tattoo. If he fouls up, I'm going to get my butt hauled downtown over it, too."

Thus, the cost is based on (a) the benefit to the purchaser (b) the demand of the market and © the perceived risk of the seller. I would change the cost based on the spell, too. Detect Magic might be cheaper Improved Reflexes since the former is less likely to cause major problems for the spell caster.

Just for consideration:

Magicians get 100 nuyen.gif an hour making wards, which translates to them raking in about 156,000 nuyen.gif a year working part time.

That means that to get initiates to cough up their own life force to make shit for you, you'll have to be giving them... more than that.

I agree with Dashifen here, that I don't think the NPC mage is thinking about cost in terms of karma. And FT brings up a really good point...making a ward is already getting a mage 100 nuyen/hour. I would think quickening a spell on someone would cost a ton more than that...and as Dashifen points out, there are some other things for that mage to consider...

I guess I would thing a spell quickening someone 4IPs is going to cost a ton of nuyen...I mean, if cyberware IPs cost less than bioware...I'd think that magic IPs would eclipse them both in least.
Lol, one of the main reasons I love mages most. You can do pretty well as a hacker/decker/technomancer, but you're still not the few, the proud, and the happily breaking the Laws of physics!

"A 'permanent' personal barrier spell does not come cheap my friend!"

Or my favorite response when asked to quicken something really stupid(can't remember what it is, but it was a player created spell.) "You want me to what??!!" "Have you even heard of magical theory? Damnit Jim I'm a mage not a grand uber god!" Ok the last one I didn't say, but still!

My GM actually had a house-rule that a player could be the one to spend the karma for quickening a spell on them. I normally didn't charge team-mates money for doing so, unless they had stiffed me on the spoils of war of course! I must admit that I always insisted they spend the karma though, I'm not stupid and awakened are a karma sink! A good karma sink, but karma sink non the less.
Kyoto Kid
...A couple downsides to that expensive quickened spell:

...Wards and other Astral Barriers.
...Astral/Dual Nature beings
...Other Astrally Projecting or Perceiving mages/adepts.
...Link to the mage who quickened it.

IMO, not worth the trouble and cost.

Better to just have your mage buddy sustain a spell on you when it's really needed.
Here's why Quicken spells shouldn't be too expensive: Counterspelling. Once a quickened spell is axed (by counterspelling, barriers, etc), it doesn't come back and you just wasted your money (or karma). A sustaining focus is expensive because if someone counterspells your sustained spell, you just cast it again and the sustaining focus takes over again. No problemo, you barely break your stride.

If you don't have Masking + Extended Masking to hide your quickened spells, your quickening supplier is going to get down on his knees and thank Allah for the day he met you because you are going to spend a ton of money re-quickening spells with him. If you don't quicken your spells and instead use sustaining focus, you have to hide both the spell AND the focus, which cuts in half the number of spells you can safely run 24/7.

As far as I can see, the quickening magician does NOT need to know the spell, you can cast the spell and he can quicken it.

NPCs don't technically have karma but they increase their skills don't they? They learn new spells don't they? The make foci don't they? Karma is a game concept that doesn't apply to NPC's except as a gauge for how expensive items are.

Now that I think about it, 5k nuyen per karma is maybe a little high for a quickened spell...
Quickening: A magician who has learned this power can
manipulate her sustained spells
ie you can only quicken your own spells, strictly speaking.

which only makes sense. you can't cast a spell into someone else's sustaining focus. you can't sustain someone else's spell for them. why should you be able to quicken their spells?
Kyoto Kid
...oh yeah, forgot that one...


(I really don't play mages much at all...)
QUOTE (Jaid)
Quickening: A magician who has learned this power can
manipulate her sustained spells
ie you can only quicken your own spells, strictly speaking.

which only makes sense. you can't cast a spell into someone else's sustaining focus. you can't sustain someone else's spell for them. why should you be able to quicken their spells?

D'oh! I missed that. So yeah it would be harder to find a mage with both quickening and the exact spell you want quickened. Still I would think that many wagemages would get quickening as their first initiation and do that as their daily job just like the ward mages, so it may not be any harder to find what you're looking for than say a beta clinic.
Actually now that I think about it, if you can only quicken your own sustained spells, that effectively kills the whole quickening business. No way would anyone want their sustained spells traced back to them. I'm sure aiding and abetting criminals is still a crime in 2070.

I'll have to pay for quickening myself. So many powers, so little karma!

You probably could get a triad magician to quicken spells for you. You would also need to be a triad member. And if you ever left they would have all that horrible ritual sorcery to smite you with.

1) 'karma' is an abstraction to provide a game mechanic for improement. However like all abstractions it is exactly that. NPC do not need 'karma' to do things, they need time, materials, resources, etc. (think sort of like lifestyles covers everyday things). A corporate wageslave mage, has enough karma to do the quickened spells he does (if that is his job), likewise the corportate enchanter has enought o make the foci, he cranks outs.

It is only when you start focusing on things outside of your normal lifestyle, that you have to worry about it. 'Shadowrunnners' are enchanters, if they decide to make a foci, they have to gather resources / time / effort not normally part of thier job to perform the task.

Though this abstraction is the very reason while I will always allow money -> karma and karma -> money, but rarely have a fixed formula.

You spend money on rare arcana books, expensive virgina telsmanic, etc to aid your stiudies and you likely get 'karma' (probably with me saying where it goes (or atleast a range of things it could go into).

Likewise if you spand you karma gambling, teaching student part time, or anything else, I certainly will allow karma -> money.

I have no fixed forumla it will all depend on how good of idea you come up with (in generalization dont want details but want what you plan) and how much I can tie story lines into it.

Buying that copy of the Necrominicon that was found after somebody was going through stuff in D's will, might get you a nice pile of karma (relative to the money you bid), however, it is probably going to net you even more karma, when the various people show up to take it from you (or kill you for reading it)....

2) As to finding people, that is ALWAYS a given. Sponsors (be ir corp, gang, organized crime) will almost always have (unless they are rather magic anti-friendly like say mafia) mage that can quicken goons currnetly in favor.
a) A mage living in a boss stronghold isnt too worieed about 'his fingerpritns'
b) Rest assured you will be giving samples (to help) and even if some how destroyed the quicknened spell is still a link, LINKS WORK BOTH WAYS.

So in effect the boss gets a more productive employee AND insurance that the employee will stay inline... win/win.

Now if you go independed, at best figure the boss will order the quickening broken (so you no longer have 'his tag') at worst he will order YOU broken, for thinking about leaving, so 'independed' with quickened spell is going to be a little rare.
What about Lou's tattoo shop and the likes, that make quickening tattoos? Wouldn't they quicken a spell for you, for a price of course?
The problem with treating karma as an abstraction instead of a real commodity is that such treatment does not jive with the Karma Drain spirit power and the karma transfer ritual commonly used when dealing with Free Spirits. If karma is not a real commodity then the power and the ritual would both be useless.
well, those don't necessarily mean that karma can't be an abstraction. karma can be an abstract way of representing a lot of things--one of which is the intangible energy that a spirit can drain/transfer.
What about Lou's tattoo shop and the likes, that make quickening tattoos? Wouldn't they quicken a spell for you, for a price of course?

Sure they will, but you might not get the spell you wanted. In a world where
  • you are responsible for all use of your magic
  • possession of magical goods (probably including spells) above certain power level is (heavily) restricted
  • and you practically leave your signature in the magic you do
it would be a stretch to assume Lou would know or even want to know how to make the "improved reflexes" tattoo you'd so like to have.
I would allow this, however... I would state the following:

While a mage can use their own Karma to Quicken your spell, almost none of them will do this, because it will create a huge astral link back to them, which makes them an acomplice in anything you do if you can get caught.

Therefor, a mage will happily use your Karma. Just like the rule wherein if you pay for it with Essence, it's yours, if you pay for it in Karma, it's yours. It carries your own Astral Signature, whether or not you're even awakened (or, hell, a -7 Essence cyberzombie), and it can't be traced back to the mage who did it.

However, even taking this into account, mages still don't sell their services cheaply. I would say 1,000 nuyen.gif per Kama's worth of spell. As for aquiring a mage doing it via their own Karma?

That would, frankly, be almost impossible. Anyone who likes you enough to stick their neck in the same block as yours isen't gonna charge you.

As an aside, I'd suggest that people can probably buy karma at a cost of whatever the going cash to karma rule is. You can explain this in any number of ways - donating time and money to aid impovershed orphans, sending your cash to Yucatan rebels, making a pleasing sacrifice to some Free Spirit (or Great Dragon), engaging in some shady deal involving free spirits and homeless people and Karma Transfer, whatever. You expend your money, in a way that will not tangibly benefit you, and get Karma for it.

Tangibly, in this instance, involves currying favor with dragons or free spirits; in this case, it's just biz, the (insert higher power) recognizes what you're doing, and allows the platitude to happen because it's biz, and may offer you a smile next time they see you. To curry favor enough to earn a loyalty rating, you'll have to forgoe the Karma.
While a quickened spell signature may be liked back to the quickener, we can presume that a professional magician with a license to quicken spells would pretty well be immune from prosecution so long as his paperwork is in order. After all, if you shoot someone in the fact with the pistol that you bought from you Ares Weapons Emporium, it will trace back to them. One might think that this fact would prevent any sane person from selling firearms, but the fact is that they can prove that the gun was sold and have all the paperwork to show that it was not in their possession at the time of the crime. Thus, they are in the clear. The same is true for quickening. They will, of course, give the police copies of your documentation, which is why you should throw about the fake SIN that you used when you bought the spell.
What about Lou's tattoo shop and the likes, that make quickening tattoos? Wouldn't they quicken a spell for you, for a price of course?

Here I see this unlikely.

The spells are restricted, I would presume that makes the 'caster' of the spell responsible for any action the spell does.

Don't see them as a 'commodity' you get set up and done.

They are going to be either 'organizations' doing their own, or very select 'mages to the important'

Maria Mecurial might be able to get a quickened deflect spell, as she is important, unlikely to do 'illegal' stuff with it, and can seriously pay.

Joe thug from the street is very unlikely to get one, even if he has a few million since, they chance of the Star (or 'coprs) to come knocking on his door is very very very high.

Quickening would be like a very custom made firearm even worse.

It leaves a trail that even half blind investigators could follow. While a fixer can pretty well blur where a .45acp came from, if you caught doing a crime with quickened increase reflexes (or what have you), rest assured somebody is going to be investigated and unless every permit is perfect (and he can show you had every permit perfect) somebody at best is going to be an acessory to what ever crime you commited.
So investigators are going to arrest Ares Weapons emporium every time someone who is wearing body armor that it sold, that can be traced back to it, doesn't get killed by the cops?
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
So investigators are going to arrest Ares Weapons emporium every time someone who is wearing body armor that it sold, that can be traced back to it, doesn't get killed by the cops?

Actually yes, they do now.

If said body armor is a restricted item and it can be tracked to where it was purchased, rest assured the seller is going to have to answer alot of question, and better be able to prove the have all the proper references.

Gun stores that deal 'lose' with the regulation get raid all the time by weapons siezed in crimes being traced back to them, and there is a far less 'proof' on where it came from here often (and far less 'public phobia' against magic).

Everyone spell is a 'restricted' save combat which is forbidden.

And yes if said body armor can be traced back (anot not logged as 'hijacked in shipping') then rest assured the owner of the body armor WOULD be facing legal reacation.

They big difference is while the body armor (or LMG, or missile, or what have you) could believably 'fall of the back of a truck', be stolen, etc ... it is kind of hard to come up with a rational on how a 'quickening' got stolen.

So the person that did the quickening had better be able to prove that all the required permits / liscense / and procedures where followed.

'items' can fall of the back of track and thus plausible denablity...

'Hour long rituals' can fall of the back of a truck...
Of course, you can just claim that you were possessed at the time and weren't able to stop yourself from commiting the hour long ritual....
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