Okay, here's the deal. I need to make a gang that is clearly overpowering to a spider-rigger in a bunker. But they don't have much in the way of nuyen.

The gang consists of:

Five trolls, one of whom has an obvious cyberarm. These are the gang leader's personal bodyguard.

Six orks and four humans. These should be more or less the cream of the thug crop, but most of them should still be regular thugs.

Sticks, a barrens mage who has initiated once, likes to summon spirits, and carries an Ithica combat shotgun loaded with APDS.

One Force 5 Spirit of Air. This is Sticks' personal "bodyguard" spirit.

Five Force 3 spirits (may or may not be air; Sticks likes Air, but he'll use whatever's good.) One of these is already in proximity to the rigger, the others are on drone-defeating duty.


The gangers are inside the second chamber (the meeting room) of the rigger's bunker. At least one of the drones inside has proven to be extremely lethal at melee combat; the Force 5 is on duty to smash it when it makes a hostile move. The other drones are..... Fuck, how the hell did he get.... Nevermind. I'll post his character sheet for audit after I'm done this post.

Anyway, I want him taken out, dumped naked in Glow City with his commlink, and a call placed to the first contact on his list to pick the dumbitch up. He wants to roll this out, so I need to roll it.

I don't know the first thing about magic. At least one other ganger should be a mage, and a couple of them, possibly the trolls, should be PhysAds. The gangers can be quite beefy on karma-improvements, but poor for nuyen.

How do I build this? How do I even go about starting this? All of my personal experiance is with hackers and gun-bunnies. (Sticks' shotgun and APDS represent the largest recent expendature of funds the gangers have available. They can have some minor cyberware, but not a lot. Bio is right out.... I just don't know what's appropriate.)

Your player reads these forums. Just an FYI.

Secondly, if his character isn't appropriate to your game ask him to change it. Its your game, your veto, and all that matters is that the players (whichever ones make it in) enjoy your game.

I think this situation is sucking up a lot of your time and patience and probably hurting your other players having a good time.

Just for the record, a millionaire rigger SHOULD pawn shotgun wielding gangers.

If you want to escalate he needs a new adversary.

If those spirits are indeed bound, the rigger is gone, gg.

Those spirits are worth A LOT. Astral in, engulf, no more character unless he has tons of wards up. One of those is a spirit of man? 6 dice on influence v willpower for the rigger to show himself. Basically, just remote services all your spirits on the rigger and knock him out before he can order the drones to attack.

You know, as long as Sticks has his spirits then until the Rigger can get his bunker warded Sticks has the upper hand because he doesn't need to throw away his men. Just summon spirit after spirit and IF the Rigger manages to win then Sticks just summons another one until drain makes him rest for a bit.

Also the gang needs to hit his supply line and lean on the Rigger's contacts to get them to hang him out to dry.

However in a straight out fight, everyone dies and Sticks should be smart enough to realize that.

Trid Phantasms, Improved Invisibility and Silence spells will stop the drones from being able to spot whom ever they're placed on. jamming devices, if they have any , could help. There's also the "seige" angle. They could simply try and wait him out, making sure he can't call for help.

But really, as has been said, unless the guy is under a number of wards, just send spirits after him. If he's all spider-ed out, he probably won't even know the elemental is there until it engulfs him. Might as well lightning bolt his gear while he's at it.

(I don't ask why, or why in this manner.)

If the bound aspect creates too high a nuyen level, try substituting a single high-level summoned spirit with Concealment (I think you can go to twice MG for Force) and a swarm of watchers.

Eh, if Sticks is a master enchanter and survival expert, no reason why he can't just scrounge up all the materials himself.

Honestly, I think you are making these guys far too powerful for a group of gangers in the Barrens. Go to page 275 of the main book, and check out the two Halloweeners grunts. A barrens gang might be a bit tougher, at the expense of having even more meager gear, but not by much. An unusually tough mage leader could be plausible, but making several of the others adepts is kind of pushing it.

When you start making initiatate mage gang leaders and their troll adept lieutenants, it makes it look like you are trying to "get" the player. Wasabi put it best, but I will add one caveat: that any mage with even mediocre summoning ability should be able to take out a parapalegic rigger, when they know where he's holed up.

Yes, but...

I'm just frustrated that all my ways of "dealing" with this character are split evenly between "get ground to hamburger by his defenses" and "bunker-buster bomb, save against 50P".

It's like there's no options besides killing him outright by something he literally cannot save against, unless he HoGs.

Just have your mage astral into the compound and find out where he is.

Once located, spirits make mince meat, honestly, he's not nearly as well protected as you think he is.

Of course, it's all moot now that he's quit.

No, I KNOW that, Ddays.

That's my problem. "Spirits make Mince Meat". Basically, he's daring me to say "you get killed. You don't know what from, or where from. You're dead."

And damnit, if I DO say that, I look like a bully. If I don't do anything, I let him walk all over me. If I try to give him a warning "Wake the hell up and smell the soycaf" shot, I get called a railroader!

At this point it feels more like crossing maglites than playing a game...

The Gangers could steal a high quality jammer and screw up the Riggers transmissions to his drones. No signal, no good drone defense. And lets face it assaulting him directly is stupid. Is bunker needs power from somewhere the gangers could cut the power.

Have there be cover, the gangers can take cover and hurl a grenade over by the drone.
Drone Explodes. Cover protects gangers.

Have them attack after the Rigger leaves the bunker. There is no reason the Rigger should be able to stay in his bunker and conduct all his shadowrun activities.
Most buildings the runners go into should have Wifi blocking paint to keep outside hackers from getting in to the system. The same would apply to controlling drones. So its easy to have run require the hacker/rigger/technomacner. Actually go inside.

Give a simple run, pick up X and point A and bring it to Point B.

Point A is located in a matrix dead zone in the Barrens. Point B is several miles outside the city limits. (also no wireless matrix access).
The gangers should draw him out of the bunker.
It could be as simple as an attack when going to meeting the Johnson.
I can easily see a Johnson not working with a runner they don't meet in person.

If he's able be a shadowrunner from with in his bunker. The problem is not is character is to powerful. Its your to kind a DM.

Lastly, if he spends all that time in the bunker, with armed drones around. LoneStar or other law enforcement might actually get interested enough to investigate. Part of being a shadowrunner is people NOT knowing how to find you in person.

i don't see why the rigger being present or absent at meets is relevant from the johnson's perspective, unless each runner is being hired separately.

the johnson isn't paying 8k credits 5 times, he's paying 40k to the team. how the team spends that money isn't his problem. if they wish to subcontract out to a bunker-rigger, that's their prerogative... so long as the job gets done the way the johnson wants. the rigger not being there simply means yet another layer of deniability for the johnson ("oh yes, i asked those P.I.s to find my <insert whatever here>, but this crazy rigger they hired i had nothing to do with! clearly that burned-down research building is entirely the fault of those horrible, unethical P.I.s!")

of course, from the perspective of the rigger, it should be concerning... as a johnson, i *certainly* would not meet with a drone present, so if the rigger wants to know what's going on at the meet (for example, how much is *actually* being paid to the team, and whether or not he's getting an equal share) or especially to have input on the meet (for example, say, negotiating for a contact to store/repair/maintain drones if the team has to travel to another city, or the precise nature of payment that comes in the form of equipment...)

so yeah, such a character could theoretically work, as a subcontractor working for actual shadowrunning teams... provided the other team members trust him enough, and he also trusts them.

and of course, the wifi-inhibiting stuff is a valid point, though the remote location not so much (satellite links are cheap and easy to get).

however, such a degree of trust should be extremely rare in the shadows.

Satellite links also say. "SHOOT ME AND THE DRONES STOP!" Now that would irk a rigger. Taking out the satellite link and his drones go dark.

Influence the Rigger to come out of his bunker nekkid and give the gang his drone control codes.... and don't kill him...

My first question is simple; why is this gang after him? Until I know that, I can't really help you very much.

My second question is even simpler; does it have to be trolls with cyberarms?

If at all possible, I'd drop the Troll idea and make him face The Spiders. They take on insect spirits professionally and they're mostly mundane followers of the Spider totem with a few Shamans in the mix. Because of their emphasis on fighting Insect Spirits, they understand the need for intelligence, planning, and preparation.

If they can't be The Spiders due to plot reasons, the rest of this still stands.

To start out with, these are not stupid gangers. They understand the importance of human intelligence and have talked to people who live around the area, people who have seen drones being brought in. They know what to expect.

The first stage of the assault involves activating a makeshift RF jammer, something bulky cobbled together from old car batteries, parts of broken microwave ovens, and a lot of aluminum foil. About rating 3, give or take. It may or may not disrupt his control of the drones.

Second, you have an Air Spirit (or two) with the ability to throw lightening bolts scout astrally, but not directly attack him. Assume that it can't reasonably materialize without risking being machine gunned during the requisite complex action (which is true, any sane person would quickdraw a spirit-busting weapon while the thing is busy materializing and kill it before it gets its second IP a drone riffer should have an autocannon turrent guarding his Sanctum Sanctorum).

Third, they crack the place open with their very own homemade Thermic Lances (reach 2, DV 20P, fire elemental effects, loses 1 point reach every 10 CT , must be extinguished or discarded before reach is reduced to -1 or else the wielder takes 20P damage, can only be ignited once, uses an exotic weapon skill) and Thermite burning bars.

To take out drones, there are two gangers wielding AK-97s loaded with Stick n' Shock, and they will be supported by the Air Spirit once they are inside. In melee, the Thermic Lances wil prove very effective against drones, though the gangers will be defaulting.

Once they've cracked the last bit of security, he really has no choice but to surrender, though he can continue to fight. Have them S&S him if he does, or have the magician stunbolt him. Autocannons and drones can't fire in two directions at once, so they're pinned between the gangers and the spirit. Whichever they shoot at, the other takes them out, assuming that they're fought one at a time.

And when they get him, they don't kill him, they forcibly enlist his help in taking out a giant hive in an Alchera beneath the Seattle sewer system. Thousands of hybrid merges. Thousands of them.

You could also make one of the gangers be a Technomancer and have them fight for control of his drones.

Basically, as soon as the mage plays the Spirit card, the battle is over as the rigger is the literal sitting duck. And this is the moste likely thing to happen IG.
OG, on the other hand, it doesn't really matter anymore wether they kill him or extort protection money - he's pissed and leaving anyway.

How Crit would have done it ™:

Mage-guy astrally checks the bunker out. Do, de do, de do, de do, looks around, finds the gimp. Ta da! Goes back to his body.

Then siccs his spirits on the guy. Not to kill him, but to knock him out. And break some shit (but knock him out, first). The guy's a min/maxer and, by forcing him into a realbody physical confrontation, you're hitting him where he's minned. Easy as pie, for even a low Force Spirit or two.

Then the gang leader strolls in past all the broken defenses and off-line stuff (due to the rigger being KOed instead of running the show), and has a little talk with him about who runs those blocks.

The end.

Unfortunately, no. The devs opened the door for this by giving mini-welder and thermite bars huge flat DVs instead of having them cause damage over time and ignore the convert-to-stun rule. Going by the termite and mini-welder stats, and the nature of a thermal lance, that's just about right.
I one might choose to lower the DV to 15, but the lance is closer to thermite than it is to an electric welder, and it had the advantage of being in the form of a polearm.

And its a bunch of iron bars in an iron tube. It isn't like it takes a rich rocket scientist to make one. Poor barrens gangers should be using these things.

Quicker considering that according to his character sheet it doesn't appear that he even has a bunker at all.

*Edit*

Oh, and I'm stealing the thermite lance idea.

The oxygen is drawn from the air through spaces between the iron rods. It is about as much rocket science as lighting a torch is.

Lighting a tor...WOAH, you lost me!

Nope. It requires pure, compressed oxygen - and lot's of it. That makes it pretty much useless as a weapon. (as thermite burning bars are, too, per RAW)

That's thermic lance not thermite lance.

Maybe that will teach me to skim while replying...

...Naw, probably not.

But it's not canon to use a thermite burning bar as a weapon - and I don't see why a thermic lance should provide any advantage to that.

On the subject of spirit costs you can scrounge for them. But a mage would probably be reluctant to use them unless he really had to.

However just wistling up a single higher for spirit isn't a problem at all. And they're within range so you don't even need to use a remote service, though you could if you wanted to.

On trick you have here is that it's a lot easier to kill your player than it is to knock him out. This is due to his high willpower but low body.

This guy has maxed edge so be careful of the advice a lot of these guys are giving. There is a very high chance engulf will NOT work. They player will put edge into the melee roll and win. Then on his next turn he'll probably lay in with some APDS something or whatever and drop the spirit. Ditto with compulsion.


Really using raw unless the dice don't like him there probably isn't too much you can do with the first spirit. Maybe have it come in with concealment on (which takes up a service and gives the -2 modifier until the spirit drops it). If he fails perception/surprise an engulf with electric energy aura will probably do it. Otherwise you might do better with innate spell stunbolt or one of the mental manipulationg spells as an innate spell.

Still it's very likely that he'll somehow manage to deal with the first spirit. If you have a second weaker mage in the group (maybe attack with a force 5 and a force 3). It'll be a little rougher but he'll probably still do it.

But here's the fun part, have sticks simply summon up another. Actually roll though. there is a chance drain will weaken sticks to where it isn't safe to summon another. Though sticks should also have a little edge to roll if a spirit rolls high and could knock him out. Be fair here.

Still sticks is probably good for a few spirits.

Note that the layout of the bunker matters too. After beating the first spirits your player will probably make a break for earth. Spirits can't pass through it, and spirits can't attack the turn they materialize meaning that he'd get to use the surprise rules for every spirit that pops up. (with +3 dice in his favor due to him being the ambusher but the spirit knowing he's there).

He'll also probably have his drones covering the area. They have a chance to hurt spirits.

You can have the spirits start laying into the drones though. Innate electrical attacks and electrical aura+engulf could do some serious property damage.

Also he'll probably be calling in the group mage as fast as he can.

In short you might not actually be able to get him. But you should be able to make it exciting, get him to use up a lot of edge, and probably do some major property damage.

Get him to fix up his char sheet first though.

Not really.

I wonder if WIFI blocking paint can come in spray tins?

Summoner to spirit of man, "I want you to materialize, appearing as a small street kid, and take these bottles of spray paint and paint murals over the walls of that building. after goto the roof and paint it."

DM to Rigger, "You see a steet kid maybe 10 years old coming over and painting the walls of your bunker. He appears to be doing some sort of graffiti. It is really horrible and the kid has no artistic ability."

Rigger ignores kid. Continue with adventure.

DM to Rigger, "You seem to be getting some interference with your drones."
Rigger to team mates, "Someones got a jammer down on your end, find them."

Guys, guys.

I think everyone is assuming I'm having these gangers maliciously attack him. I'm not!

They showed up to a meet that the Geek called. The meet went down, they just wanted to withdraw unmolested. The little killbot (which, having been seen on the news turning a man into a huge spread of blood and guts over a StufferShack's floor) was under the watch of the force 5 spirit. The little drone was ordered to leap at a crate and open it, which the spirit interpreted as an attack and it Engulfed him. (I didn't know Materialization was an action, my bad.)

At this, the rigger told me he was hitting the panicbutton and ordering everyone cut down, which is where the other spirits using powers to keep his stuff shut down until they can withdraw comes in.

These guys just wanted to leave unmolested.

Thats the problem, they wanted to leave unmolested, the rigger didn't. It should have played out into a combat. All the drones that you used accident on would have had to roll crash test. Remember it would have been the drones and not the rigger as he cannot directly control them unless he was jumped into one. The engulfed drone would have probably been destroyed, the ones that didn't crash would have opened fire. most of the gang that showed up would have been gunned down. The leader would have burnt a point of edge and miraculously escaped into a manhole outside the bunker and the drones wouldn't have seen it. Then the conflict would have escalated to the point that the rigger brought it to.

This would have left the rigger attacked by spirits until he got the bunker warded and then you would have the place covered by jammers and the wifi blocking paint. After the rigger was locked in his bunker with no outside communications, the gang would just waylay anyone who came to resupply him. The nurse that came every few days wouldn't come. The doc wouldn't call anyone for fear of being killed. I wouldn't think that groceries would even deliver out to the barrens so whomever he pays handsomely to get food for him would stop showing up. When you have the game sessions put him in the basement playing xbox when people show up and when they ask where he is say that they cannot get a hold of him on the comm and unless they go check out his place then nothing comes of it. After a few days he calls the gangers for a meet and apologizes and offers to pay protection like a good little barren resident. You up the lifestyle cost to high and if he doesn't cough up the money they kill him and loot his bunker.

Ok, odison is a little off on how that would probably go down.

The trick is actually filtering things through the mechanics. And remember in SR defense is weaker than offense. That's somewhat deliberate. Meaning that the best defence is a good offence but the converse is not true.

Spirits do not pop out of nowhere, they materialize and it takes a complex action. Which means unless the materialize out of the way the rigger will know somethings up before it happens, and I imagine the point of his having a panic button in the first place is that he can use it with a free action.

Which means the signal would go out.

What I would advise.

1. Have the player fix his char. With the costs associated with the warehouse, especially if it has extra security, and the avatar, which wasn't in your posted char, he's something like 50BP over. Also not that he didn't upgrade the computer systems in his drones, so they operate at pilot3 + autosoft 3 and can only load 3 programs. If one of those programs isn't analyze those drones are just as likely to work for even a crappy hacker as they are to work for the rigger. Even then spoof will work all too often. Anyway the point is by the time he straightens things out he won't be as potent.

2. If the gang has some nuyen at all give them weapons with some DV or tasers. You can still keep things cheap that way. Or give them a little Stick and shock with any cheap gun. Maybe just a couple rounds each. That's pretty easy actually. Just have sticks use spells instead of the shotgun and buy everyboy a little S&S and tell them to just load a couple as the first rounds.


So probably give the spirits less discretion one when to spawn. But have the one behind the rigger ready. Sticks can communicate with it via the link spellcasters have with their spirits.

Since the spirits aren't so jumpy (you don't want the spirits initiating combat as it'd be surprise rolls that the gangers are as likely to miss as not miss.) The box to rip off would probably not be a problem.

I predict however that things would rapidly go south from there.

Because he's trying to dupe them with fake weapons

Sticks will likely send someone forward to check them out, 80's movie style. And it's likely that combat will result. Exactly how that goes down varies but the gangers assuming it's a trap or just being pissed is somewhat likely. Mind you they would, if possible like to get out and have spirits get vengence remotley. Sticks didn't get where he is today getting in unessesary fights on the other guys turf. Especially when the other guy has heavy weapons. Really I'm guessing he didn't get where his is by agreeing to go into somebodies killzone for a meet.


Anyway, drones, unless loaded with defense, don't get a full defense option, and use pilot+- handling instead of reaction. Which for his drones is 3, and nothing if the drones are surprised. Also each subsequent attack is at -1 so they'll rapidly be rolling nothing to not get hit. And edge won't help here. Their initiative isn't all that great either at a 6. Though they get extra passes. So odds are some gangers will get to go first and will land some respectable electricity attacks. Hopefully dropping a few or at least putting on enough modifiers that a ganger on full defense can get off the spot. If sticks goes early a spell could do a lot of damage, and AOE spell could possibly drop a bunch of drones.

Drones without defense won't hold off engulfs coupled with electric aura, so the spirits who are still pretty quick will probably start dropping drones fast. After the first pass. Wait are all the other spirits force 3? That starts getting a bit weak. Note that gunfire will rip them to shreds.

Also sticks would absolutly have the spirit with the rigger materialize IMEDIATLY. It will at the least force the rigger to deal with the spirit. He may well come out on top, but he'll be spending edge like water and won't be rigging for that time. Giving the spirits and gangers a chance to deal with the drones.

A fireing retreat is not a good option at this point. As I said offense is better. If the gangers run the rigger will just gleefully mow them down. I think this could be an interesting battle.

Oh and make sure sticks has a respectable dodge with bullets spec. If you don't want him dying he'll probably have to use a lot of running (for +2 die) and full defense. Drones would be rolling 8 die (pilot + autosoft+ smartlink) to hit him but with reaction 4 and dodge(firearms) 3(5) plus running (2) he's opposing with 11. If you have him sustain a increase reaction spell (or maybe increase reflexes but for meets reaction is probably better), which I strongly strongly advise if he isn't supposed to secretly be a retard. Note the drain is low enough that he can recast without much risk of stun until he gets a nice 4 or 5 bonus. At that point he'd be rolling 11 die without full def and 16 with. giving him a chance to survive. And with the increased reaction the odds of coming out on top of a surprise or initiative based siuation are pretty good.

Anyway I'd just play things out. It could be an exciting battle and I couldn't say for sure how things would go. Depends on the exact numbers you give the gangers and what your player is after shaving off 50BP.


Give him a chance though. I mean what does it really hurt you if things start going his way?

And do it sometime when the other players aren't around.

Oh who am I kidding. This is way to long for a post, at least people here tend to be polite enough not to drop a tl;dr .

I think that if you wanted the interior spirits to not kill the Rigger outright, they should materialize and start ligthning-bolting all the equipment in sight. That'll take out his drones and outside security real quick, leaving him helples.

Even though he's a poor man's Mr. Lucky, he can't spend Edge on behalf of his equipment, just him. Nonmagical items don't get resistance tests, so there's nothing he can spend Edge on-- every use of Edge affects dice rolls. He could burn a point or two, but that'd get really expensive really quickly, and solve a lot of future problems.

To further limit him, you can always rule that he can only spend Edge on drone's he's jumped into, and not ones he's captain's chairing. Also, you can rule that autosofts, like skillsofts, override natural skill, soo he can't spend edge on any task with an autosoft.

I think big, cheap guns is the way to go here. The gangers may be poor, but a Ruger Warhawk is still only 250 cred. Hell, even an AK-97 assault rifle and the Remington 990 clock in at under 600. Hell, if you want, it'd be easy enough to just make up your own cheap shotgun, if it makes you feel better. Take the remington 990 for a baseline, shave off a point of AP, halve the size of the magazine and cut the cost by 150 credits, and voila, you have a cheap 7DV (with slugs) 4 round 20 gauge shotgun for under 500 nuyen. That's less than two months bus fare.