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Ddays
In the SR4 book, there's a handy little table that shows the degree of proficiency you have at each skill based on your ranks as well as a a little description of how good you are (0 is average joe, 1 is high school athlete, 2 is blah blah)

I was wondering if there's anything of the sort for attributes, or if it's plausible to make one since I was wondering if my 2 logic troll is as dumb as a grade schooler or around average for a guy out of high school.

I'm aware there are some problems with this (some of the unawakened animals have surprisingly high mental stats), but a vague guideline would still be nice.
Strobe
I think the problem with that is what the stats represent. Reading the descriptions for them show that the stats can mean different things. High body might be a big burly guy or just a fitness freak with a good immune system. Logic might be how well you use the data you have but it is difficult to say it isn't a part of somethings raw cunning.

I guess it is possibly since they give a few descriptions for each one eg. Strength 5 might be weightlifter, professional bodybuilder or boxing champion but Body 5 might be boxing champion, marathon runner but not the weightlifter as they are just Strength not always the Body (not saying they wouldn't have the body mind you).

-Strobe
knasser

I'm very strongly of the opinion that 2 is the average attribute for a person. Firstly, it's backed up by the grunt stats in the SR4 BBB, secondly it really makes sense. The range of ability for a human is quite wide (let's take Strength as an example) and the vast majority of people are not placed mid-point in that range. Instead, the average is below that mid-point. There is far more room at the top than there is at the bottom because few people reach their potential. If it were otherwise, most folks be half as strong as the world's strongest person and most of us are not powerlifting 300lbs wink.gif

I give 2's across the board as standard then a 3 in things people should be good at. So the Lonestar cops in the BBB have 2's with a few 3's in body, etc. I represent ability more through skills than Logic, Intuition, etc.

Your Log 2 troll is not an idiot, and will be experienced in appropriate areas which will make him effectively smart in that field. But he's not someone you would immediately think is very bright.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ddays)
I was wondering if there's anything of the sort for attributes, or if it's plausible to make one since I was wondering if my 2 logic troll is as dumb as a grade schooler or around average for a guy out of high school.

p. 62
pbangarth
I'm particularly interested in what people think an Attribute of 1 means, as I have seen several contributors to Dumpshock grow hot under the collar at the mention of generating characters with Attribute(s) at 1.

Is a character with, say, 2 Attributes at 1 an abberation that cannot exist in reality, but only in a munckin's dream?

Would the character Radar in M.A.S.H. have average physical ratings of 3 (or 2 as mentioned above) or something lower?

Is an Attribute of 1 any more exotic than an Attribute of 6, particularly since it is closer numerically to the 'average' value of 2or 3?
Blade
a character with 2 attributes at 1 could exist in reality: someone with a physical deficiencies could have Strength and Body at 1, someone burnt on drugs can have willpower and charisma at 1...

As for the 2/3 debate, I think that someone who's healthy but doesn't do much physical effort will have a Strength rating of 2. This covers a big part of the population, but it's not how you'd picture a "standard guy".
sunnyside
The book does mention that 3 is "average". In the powerlifting example that person would probably be strength 7 (if they aren't exceptional they aren't at the olympics in that event), and they would also have a lot of skill. Powerlifting at that level takes technique.

Still 2's are far from uncommon. There are probably lots of people who are generally below average, and most people are probably below average somewhere.

An attribute of 1 however is something that might stick out a little bit. However they do exist. Some people are just plain dumb, etc.

Multiple attributes at 1 could certainly exist. The trick is that chars like that tend to be annoying. The classic example of that is the character who dumps logic and charisma because they intend to use their own abilities in place of those. All to many GMs will let that work. Especially the logic part. Also GMs frequently don't like tracking encumberance. And so str 1 characters can often get by like their str3 counterparts, instead of having things happen like the GM saying they can't pull themselves up the ledge or something.
James McMurray
I'd say that an attribute of 1 is abyssmally low for a Shadowrunner. If you're not covering it with skills or 'ware you could easily get yourself killed.
knasser
QUOTE (sunnyside)
The book does mention that 3 is "average".


Where was that? I looked for anything like that but couldn't find it. I think 2 makes more sense.

-K.
Rotbart van Dainig
Still p. 62.
sunnyside
I think knasser may be thrown off the page 62 stuff by the NPCs.

The gangers are often poorly nourished, and haven't exactly been trying to develop their cerebral capacities.

And I don't know what to think about humanis goons. My inclination is that we're talking about people whose mother is also their neice.
ElFenrir
It seems that in the old days, 3 seemed to be the average, but these days, it appears to be a 2.

I did some comparing of 2's and 3's with some of the simpler, real world things(like Strength), and a 3 strength is actually pretty damn good compared to the typical person in the early 21st century.

Certain people can be defined by attributes, or in some cases, lack thereof, or both(Stephen Hawking comes to mind.)

Also interesting to notice how many people ''lump'' certain attributes together, like Body and Strength. A little off topic, but i notice many folks don't have a problem dumping Strength but granting high Body, but very few can picture a very strong character with low Body(a steroid abuser could very well have little in the way of health but be freakishly strong due to the drugs). I've seen some boxers who could punch someone's lights out fast, but can't take a hit to save their life.

Sorry for the offtopic, but it seemed like an interesting place to bring it up.

Back on the topic, i really don't know if i believe the book average of 3, or the 2 that folks discuss alot. Assuming attributes are equally tossed around(up to 200 BP), not maxing or gimping anything, that allows 4 3's and 3 4 4's. Which is really good. If it's assumed the ''average'' Shadowrunner uses half their BP to Attributes, i can believe the three, but this might not be the case.
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 11 2007, 06:26 PM)
Still p. 62.


Hmmm. So it does. 2 makes more sense. The average person is not in the middle of the range of human potential.
Narmio
Not unlike Knasser, I've always assumed that the average person is somewhere around 200 to 250pt build, varying depending on education, training, etc. What that means is 100-120 points in attributes, which is (for a human) mostly twos with a smattering of threes in what you're good at. So the average construction worker will probably have Log 2, Bod 3, while the average schoolteacher will probably have the reverse.

At least, that would be their stats if I ever concocted a run bizarre enough to require a schoolteacher's stats.
Strobe
Also people in RL would probably have higher mental attributes than physical attributes. Or at least I think most people in the world have below 3 Strength. Since most highly paid jobs are not physical labor people tend to develop their brains more.

-Strobe
pbangarth
Well there's the rub, isn't it, Narmio? The shadows are full of people with 2s. Are we interested in playing them, though?

Then there's the issue of the augmentations available. If 2s are ordinary, and augmentations can improve them to 5s and 6s, is creating a character like that reasonable?
knasser
QUOTE (pbangarth)
Well there's the rub, isn't it, Narmio? The shadows are full of people with 2s. Are we interested in playing them, though?

Then there's the issue of the augmentations available. If 2s are ordinary, and augmentations can improve them to 5s and 6s, is creating a character like that reasonable?


I use cyberware to boost people to 3's or 4's sometimes. If it fits the character, such as some spoilt kid or well-off wageslave, then I can see them taking the short and easy route to those big muscles or whatever.

Thanks to Narmio, I also now have an urge to create a schoolteacher as a villain. wobble.gif
bibliophile20
QUOTE (knasser)
Thanks to Narmio, I also now have an urge to create a schoolteacher as a villain. wobble.gif

Ooh, ooh! Psychotropic programs disguised as teaching aids! Brainwashes the kids into absolute loyalty to the teacher! Teacher has them go out and steal stuff from parents' homes!

^_^
Nostalgic Jester
This has been discussed before smile.gif . I don't remember who made it, but I still remember a brilliant observation on the subject: Shadowrun Third Edition average attribute ratings were 3 and when converting characters from said edition to Fourth you should multiply those ratings by 2/3...

Because of that, yesterday 6's became today 4's and by the same token old 3's should become new 2's.

I'd like to highlight the fact that except for the part of 3's becoming the current 2's all of this is actually stated on the RAW, thus making p. 62 a clear example of why cut and paste isn't always such a good idea biggrin.gif .
Naysayer
Especially when you bring metahumans into the equation...
What are the average metahuman stats? In 1st to 3rd, it was easy: take the somewhat dodgy all-three's of the "average" human, add yonder racial modifiers et voilĂ , "average metahuman".
Now, if you would do that in 4th, the negative mods are no longer that, technically, they just lower the hard cap. Would Hagen, the troll-pedestrian, still have 3s in all mental attributes?
I don't think so, but by the mechanics, you could make a case for that, couldn't you?

But yeah, ever since 1st ed. I found the "average" values odd, given that, as knasser alreay pointed out, they make the "average" human about half as tough or smart as the unmodified max.
And it gave the average troll an Intelligence of 1, which is so much worse that even a crappy logic of 1 because it makes him just overall stupid. Like really plain stupid.

To cut it short, I agree with those who go for an average closer to two, with some threes. Especially with the new hard caps yadayadahasalleensaidi'llshutupnow...

bait
Could be that 3s are average for shadowrunners and not the mundanes.
Critias
That's pretty weak. The moment you decide to cross the line into becoming a semi-professional criminal instead of any other job in the world, all your stats go up?
MaxHunter
2 is the new 3.

Cheers,

Max
Fortune
I agree that 2 (or rather 2.5 - with a mix of 2s and 3s in Attributes) should be the SR4 human average.

I'm also of the opinion that an rating of 1 in one (or even two) Attributes isn't the end of the world. There are only so many BPs to go around.

Oh, and as an aside, could one of you nice admin-types fix the Thread's title? Pretty please ...
Rotbart van Dainig
Personally, I'll stick with the 3 for Average.
Why? Because that means Joe Average will roll 2 Dice when doing something.
Skill 0 is Average, too - and means defaulting.
draglikepull
QUOTE (Critias)
That's pretty weak. The moment you decide to cross the line into becoming a semi-professional criminal instead of any other job in the world, all your stats go up?

A more reasonable explanation would be that Shadowrunners need to be above average or they will be killed very quickly. So it's not that they're stronger/smarter because they're Shadowrunners, but that if they weren't stronger or smarter they just couldn't cut it.
Critias
Right. Which is why they're above average. If average is a 3 (everyday Joe), a good, well rounded, Shadowrunner will have a 4+. It doesn't mean a whole different set of rules for what an average attribute is -- it just means Shadowrunners are above average.
Ravor
Or it means that the table that has Joe Average as having ( Rating 3 ) spread across the board is merely an example of carryover from previous editions that fails to take into account the fact that 4 is the new 6.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Critias)
Right. Which is why they're above average. If average is a 3 (everyday Joe), a good, well rounded, Shadowrunner will have a 4+. It doesn't mean a whole different set of rules for what an average attribute is -- it just means Shadowrunners are above average.

So the average shadowrunner is higher than the average Joe, which is what he said. It's not a new set of rules, just a new subset of measurement.
Critias
Most Shadowrunners being stronger than most geeks on the street shouldn't change what a rulebook lists as "average" for the species, though.
James McMurray
True. The rulebook should definitely have a more realistic average listed.
Dancer
I say average is between 2 and 3. A normal person will have most attributes at 2, a couple at 3.

I don't think 3 as an average stat works, because then you need to be at least a 320 point character to be even dead average. Protagonists are only 400.
ElFenrir
It seems that the jump between 1 and 2 is rather significant, but 2 and 3 not so much, for some reason. a 1 in an attribute is undoubtedly something weak, a 1 body means sickly, a 1 strength, you're a weakling and probably a bit ill/injured, 1 agility, you're damn clumsy. But 2's are im sure perfectly healthy, just on the lower end of the scale, with a 3 being something an average joe could have without TOO much extra effort, but a little effort is needed just the same. Seems like 3-4 is another ''bigger jump''.
Critias
Which is part of what's funny about a system where each die grants only a 1/3 chance of success. The practical difference between a 2 and a 3 is no different than between a 6 and a 7... but to read about it in the books, the guys with 7's are Olympic Super Ninja Commandos compared to everyone else, when the statistic, practical, difference isn't really all that big a flippin' deal.
Wakshaani
The perils of a 6-point scale, I'm afraid, is that you can't really have small steps.

For me, I use roughly the book level:

1 -- Effectively incompetent at this level, clearly substandard. The Body of a 44 kg Supermodel, the Agility of a shakey-handed accountant, the Reaction of a stoner, the Strength of an 8 yr old kid, the Charisma of an utter ass, the Intuition of a classic "Absent-Minded Professor", the Logic or Forrest Gump, and the Willpower of a trendy teenage girl that follows every fad and screams for Carson Daley.

2 -- This is the "Normal but undeveloped" level. The physical stats of someone with a mental job, the mental attributes of someone with a physical job. You're normal, but not focused. This is, for example, the Strength of a computer hacker or the Logic of a garbageman.

3 -- This is the "Normal and developed" level. The average person will have this in whatever attribute they use for a living, plus one or two others that they have an interest in. The Logic of a computer hacker, the strength of a garbageman.

4 -- This is the "Advanced" level. People here are not just focused, but dedicated to improving or blessed with good genes. Someone at this level is notable for it and would stand out in a group of, say, 30 people. The smartest guy in your science class, the one good manager at the store (As opposed to the bad ones), college football players good enough to go pro, veteran cops with a great 'gut' for hunches... you stand out.

5 -- This is the "Very advanced" level. This combines dedication and genes both, a level that most people never reach. Bonafide geniuses, comedians that land their own Trid shows, NFL-grade players, sharpshooters ... you're a huge standout here.

6 -- Peak human potential. These guys are amazing, doing things that you can scarcely imagine. Winners of "World's Strongst Man" competitions, Cirqe de Ceolei performers, AA corp CEOs, Supermodels (Rather than "Supermodels"), you can go your whole life and never meet someone at this level.

7 -- Beyond. To say that these guys are rare is a massive understatement. Helen of Troy, Hank Aaron, Elvis Presley, Steven Hawking ... they *define* what's possible and are held up as the example that everyone wants to be.




Average folks are a blend of 2's and 3's, with exceptional folks having a few 4's. Getting to a 5 is a MAJOR thing, and a 6 should be reserved for ultra-specialists.

Shadowrunners tend to be better than the norm across the board. simply because of the level of game the default 400 pointer represents. (Insert shilling of Wakshaani 320 or "Cyber Noir" here.) The 400 point characters are the Indiana Jones/movie Charlie's Angels/Rambos of their day.

They're the frakkin' Batman.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
5 -- This is the "Very advanced" level. This combines dedication and genes both, a level that most people never reach. Bonafide geniuses, comedians that land their own Trid shows, NFL-grade players, sharpshooters ... you're a huge standout here.

6 -- Peak human potential. These guys are amazing, doing things that you can scarcely imagine. Winners of "World's Strongst Man" competitions, Cirqe de Ceolei performers, AA corp CEOs, Supermodels (Rather than "Supermodels"), you can go your whole life and never meet someone at this level.

7 -- Beyond. To say that these guys are rare is a massive understatement. Helen of Troy, Hank Aaron, Elvis Presley, Steven Hawking ... they *define* what's possible and are held up as the example that everyone wants to be.

And this is what one should keep in mind when a street sam has 5 in all physical stats and augments them to all 7.

If he then goes on and augments them to all 9...
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
5 -- This is the "Very advanced" level. This combines dedication and genes both, a level that most people never reach. Bonafide geniuses, comedians that land their own Trid shows, NFL-grade players, sharpshooters ... you're a huge standout here.

6 -- Peak human potential. These guys are amazing, doing things that you can scarcely imagine. Winners of "World's Strongst Man" competitions, Cirqe de Ceolei performers, AA corp CEOs, Supermodels (Rather than "Supermodels"), you can go your whole life and never meet someone at this level.

7 -- Beyond. To say that these guys are rare is a massive understatement. Helen of Troy, Hank Aaron, Elvis Presley, Steven Hawking ... they *define* what's possible and are held up as the example that everyone wants to be.

And this is what one should keep in mind when a street sam has 5 in all physical stats and augments them to all 7.

If he then goes on and augments them to all 9...

Then again, if you're involved in extremely dangerous work, where staying well beyond the norm is imperative, when you live and die by the way of staying beyond the compitition, then it makes sense to pour your resources into things to keep yourself alive.

A Hacker would do the same thing with his programs, commlink, and his own brainpower. Better believe that Mage is going to improve himself in ways to stay above the Azzie bloodmage hitman that is none too happy he got a formula stolen.

Basically, i don't see anything wrong with high stats, as long as a player earns them down the line, and doesn't try to break the game open to start with massive scores. I never had a problem with someone wanting that 5 body or strength. Just so they know what exactly that means and gives me a little light onto how they got that way. smile.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
Just so they know what exactly that means and gives me a little light onto how they got that way.

That was the point... of both posts.

Most people simply forget what those stats mean.
knasser

I got sick of people thinking of six strength as ntohing special, mainly when people swapped over from third edition and didn't make the mental recalibration, so I did this diagram to illustrate just what augmented attributes really meant. I felt some visualisation of the numbers in the book was needed. Note that the effects shown aren't exceptional rolls and don't include edge. Everything is based on an average roll where applicable.
Rotbart van Dainig
Of course, you could clean up that skill section smile.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (knasser)
I got sick of people thinking of six strength as ntohing special, mainly when people swapped over from third edition and didn't make the mental recalibration, so I did this diagram to illustrate just what augmented attributes really meant. I felt some visualisation of the numbers in the book was needed. Note that the effects shown aren't exceptional rolls and don't include edge. Everything is based on an average roll where applicable.

ok, do the math again this time with straight 4 in attributes keeping the 4 in skills. With a TN of 5 that means on average 1 less success. What would one less success mean in your diagram and does it even come close to the difference between,

4 -- This is the "Advanced" level. People here are not just focused, but dedicated to improving or blessed with good genes. Someone at this level is notable for it and would stand out in a group of, say, 30 people. The smartest guy in your science class, the one good manager at the store (As opposed to the bad ones), college football players good enough to go pro, veteran cops with a great 'gut' for hunches... you stand out.

And


7 -- Beyond. To say that these guys are rare is a massive understatement. Helen of Troy, Hank Aaron, Elvis Presley, Steven Hawking ... they *define* what's possible and are held up as the example that everyone wants to be.


Now reduce the attributes to 1 and see if it shows in results the difference between.

1 -- Effectively incompetent at this level, clearly substandard. The Body of a 44 kg Supermodel, the Agility of a shakey-handed accountant, the Reaction of a stoner, the Strength of an 8 yr old kid, the Charisma of an utter ass, the Intuition of a classic "Absent-Minded Professor", the Logic or Forrest Gump, and the Willpower of a trendy teenage girl that follows every fad and screams for Carson Daley.

and

7 -- Beyond. To say that these guys are rare is a massive understatement. Helen of Troy, Hank Aaron, Elvis Presley, Steven Hawking ... they *define* what's possible and are held up as the example that everyone wants to be.

In many of your examples it very well might because your base ability is determined by the stat. How much you can lift is X kilograms X Str with the ability to push it further based on a die roll. But in everything other than attribute tests its just 1 less success and what does that mean on average when hacking or shooting or driving. And then try to tell me that the difference between 1 & 7 even remotely comes close to what the descriptive text would imply.
Fortune
I'd love to see those examples extrapolated out for each Attribute level as well, from the weakling elf all the way up to the capabilities of the most enhanced troll. wink.gif biggrin.gif
Ryu
Very nice knasser! Could you do one that has an average human for comparison?
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