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Buster
Do spirits take drain for casting spells? In the old game they didn't but this version only says they can cast a spell with a force of double their force.
Particle_Beam
If there are no rules in the SR 4th edition core book nor in the supplement Streetmagic stating anywhere that spirits do not take drain when casting, then the rules for spellcasting take place. Everything that uses the spellcasting skill (and every spirit who wants to cast a spell must have that skill) takes drain and must roll to resist it.
FrankTrollman
The old rules for innate spell were nixed and most of the creatures who had innate spell now use analagous critter powers (elemental attack instead of innate spell: flamethrower, for example). Everything which has Innate Spell in 4th edition uses the regular spellcasting rules, including choosing Force, resisting Drain, and taking penalties when sustaining spells.

-Frank
Buster
Awesome, thx.
Narmio
While we're on the subject, what are people's opinions about mages ordering Spirits of Man to massively overcast spells?

My gut feeling is that no spirit is going to drop a Force 12 Lightning Ball and sacrifice itself to take out those guards for you. It's an incredibly powerful option that seems to go against the "You ask spirits to do things" idea of summoning. However, the next question is "what about bound spirits?" It's still a massive nuke button, but bound spirits are a lot more expensive and tend to be lower force.

I'm still not decided, though. It's extremely abusable if you follow my player's original suggestion: "I get to tell my spirit what force to cast at, and it will use all of its edge resisting the drain, because it's self-preservation at that point!" I don't allow players to use their spirits' Edge, the spirit will only choose to do so itself in extraordinary circumstances. But that aside, has anyone else found a good middle ground for this?
Particle_Beam
A really simple counter-balance. If the summoner abuses his spirits to do so in the first place, he'll earn the spirit-bane negative quality with no karma/BP-gain in exchange.

Also, when he controls bound spirit, he'll get a -2 dice modifier for any spirit bound on the material plane.

Those rules were exactly made for such types of players. Also, spirits do never use edge by the will of the summoner/conjurer. It is always by their own choice, as per rule on page 95 of Street Magic.

Besides, spirits in SR 4 do not die when overcasting, they are being disrupted back to their own metaplane, so it isn't self-preservation. Only by being bound and using the spell binding service might they die by being consumed utterly. In either cases, if it's the fault of the mage, he's going to earn himself a bad reputation among the spirit community, either by them telling it around, or his being sending off negative vibes toward any spirit, whatever explanation that Street Magic backs you up suits you. smile.gif
Dancer
QUOTE (Narmio)
My gut feeling is that no spirit is going to drop a Force 12 Lightning Ball and sacrifice itself to take out those guards for you. It's an incredibly powerful option that seems to go against the "You ask spirits to do things" idea of summoning.

But it will charge into the middle of those guards and get shot up if you order it to. I think you could get a summoned spirit to overcast, but you would have to specifically order it to (costing a service each time). And if you get a lot of your summoned spirits disrupted for any reason (physical drain, shot, etc) then other spirits of that type will stop liking you.
Buster
Spirits are disrupted even when they take enough Stun damage to knock them unconscious so it doesnt matter if they're overcasting or not. Overcasting, casting, or getting shot to pieces defending their charge, it's still the same disruption to the spirit and only results in 28 days in limbo.

However if you're constantly getting your spirits disrupted (for whatever reason), I would expect word would eventually get around in the spirit bars (or where ever spirits hang around between adventures) that whenever they're summoned by you, they're almost certainly going to get disrupted. Since spirits describe disruption as an agonizing experience, I would expect that spirits would start using Edge to resist your summoning and binding.
Narmio
QUOTE (Dancer)
QUOTE (Narmio @ Jul 14 2007, 01:14 AM)
My gut feeling is that no spirit is going to drop a Force 12 Lightning Ball and sacrifice itself to take out those guards for you.  It's an incredibly powerful option that seems to go against the "You ask spirits to do things" idea of summoning.

But it will charge into the middle of those guards and get shot up if you order it to. I think you could get a summoned spirit to overcast, but you would have to specifically order it to (costing a service each time).

A spirit has very substantial defenses when charging into a group of security. I don't think I've ever seen a summoned spirit of "pocket nuke button" force (4-6 for us, usually) actually get killed in combat against mundanes.

But in this case the mage is saying "OK, take 11P for me, then I'll dismiss you and summon another one just like you!" Spirit Bane, spirits opposing summoning/binding with edge and the binding penalty were really made for that kind of behaviour, I was just wondering whether anyone had gone with smething more drastic, like "No, spirits won't overcast for you unless they're bound". I don't like adding too many house rules like that when GMing.

Oh, and spirits casting spells always counts as a separate service. You can order a spirit into combat as a service, and it will do so as it sees fit, but it is under no obligation to start dropping the Stunbolt you loaded it up with as the preferred method of doing so. Use of a specific power is always a service.

(As an aside, a fun trick is using a F6 Spirit of Man as a buffbot. It's a bit risky summoning one in a pinch, but you can load up on two force six sustained spells for most of a run, and it's cheaper than a sustaining focus. This specific player used Increase Reflexes and Combat Sense, getting four or five hits on each, and (in conjunction with the spirit's Concealment power), it was referred to as his "Spirit of Ninja")
Ravor
Well personally I don't allow the summoner to determine what Force the spirit casts at all. All he can do is order the spirit to cast the spell, and if the spirit really hates him it might even be at Force 1. (Most of the time however it's at the spirit's Magic.)
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