Hi, I'm running a game for bunch of relatively new PCs (about 24 karma and $100,000 nuyen invested in the characters over the last four games). About three of the four PCs are not very well versed in the game mechanics. Is this overkill?

*3 force 7 spirits
*1 superior level street Yakuza hit man (close combat)
*About seven low-level Yakuza grunts with automatic rifles

I've worked in the help of two very well designed combat NPCs. I want to push them to the edge, maybe off one of the characters or the NPCs. Last time, I under estimated their strength. This time, I think I might have gone overboard. Any thoughts?

Also, there are two adepts and a mage who can get around the spirits immunity to normal weapons. Otherwise, this wouldn't be fair at all.

Although we really can't give you a very good answer without more detail, something to remember is that your average person in the Sixth World only has a Dicepool of 5-8 in their area of focus, including Mages, so you are putting them against spirits which the average Mage can't even summon using overcasting.

There are great reasons for the Force 7 spirits. The crux of the story is this:
*One of the characters is a former Tsmishian mage.
*His former employer, Debroah Jim, needs a way out of Seattle.
*He has hired the rest of the party on her behalf as bodyguards.
*She has information on the Yakuza and MCT exporting changelings and dual natured beings outside of Tsmishian to Japan for experimentation.
*Ryumyo was involved - he was looking for Drakes.
*Jurojin - has personally sent some spirit allies to help the local Watada-Rengo silence her for good.

I figure if Jurojin is going to get involved, he isn't going to play around (hence the Force 7 spirits). I also want to set him up as a future long distance adversary. The Yakuza hit man is the local go to guy for the Watada-Rengo. He is loaded with alpha and betaware - max initiative passes and rolls about 17 dice with his katana. He'll withdraw if he takes damage or the spirits are disrupted.

The PCs are pretty good - mainly due to the guy who plays the Tsmishian mage. They walked through the Born to Die adventure, even after I buffed it up with a Force 4 Troll Ghoul Flesh Form Insect spirit. He has two force 6 spirits on call and will call another the instant combat starts. The two adepts are well set up to kill spirits.

You know, I've always tried to throw the runners at whatever I thought was logical for them to run into, and if they weren't smart enough to know when they were in over their heads and to back off then if they get pasted they get pasted.

Ok. First off while force 7's are high end they are quite doable. Especially if they aren't bound. If they are bound(which is required to make them work for someone other than the caster) it would probably take a high end level 1 initiate with a focus to bind them. The Yaks certainly have a guy or two like that though.


Anyway I think you're fine.

First off you don't neccesarily die in SR4. You just lose a point of edge. There is a thread going into detail on that around here somewhere.

Secondly you need to remember that "immunity to normal weapons" doesn't actually provide immunity. Just good protection. In this case 14 points of hardend armor.

But hardened armor also isn't as hard in this edition, because your successes add to the effective DV. Also lots of stuff gets AP, very noticably electrical attacks, halve armor (so the ghostbusters had it right all along)

Oh and another important caveat, they erratad the spirits. Their stats are now under control. Equally importantly don't forget that if they materialize that takes a complex action. So everyone gets a free shot at them before they can do anything.

Anyway so the point is that lets say you've got a simple sammy with a ruger warhawk that's only loaded with (erratad) regular explosive. so 6DV -3AP. He uses edge on the attack and so rolls a healthy, say, 18 die with exploding 6's and +4 damage for a called shot. Generating seven hits fairly likely. Reaction depends on spirit type but lets say that it gets 3 hits. That leaves you with a final DV of 6+4+7-3=14. Which with the -3AP gets through the things armor.

Of course it'll probably resist maybe seven of that so it'll only take 7 damage. So it'd take a couple warhawk shots to finish the thing. But if the players have tasers, assault rifles or sniper rifles, APDS/S&S or something they might be able to oneshot the things (or oneburst them).

And a mage can also one shot them with just a little overcasting. You mentioned the adpets can too. Though they may do better with guns than astral combat, and the spirits might no close to killing hands range.


As for the close combat specialist he is probably not as effective as he looks on paper so long as a CC player is going toe to toe with them. This is a game of ranged combat not melee. They're still fun though

If the grunts are only rolling nine dice they shouldn't be a huge threat so long as the players are smart and don't get shot at by all of them a once. Unless surprised they could always go on full defense with edge to avoid getting hit.

-------

The third and most important point is that SR is a tactical, deadly game. If this group is setting an ambush that's a while different story. Even with edge it's quite possible a few PCs will be surprised and then they may be screwed.

Conversly if the PCs ambush this group they'll go down fast. (Mage manaballs a couple spirits and some goons, someone with a grenade gets the rest of the goons, sammies slice through the CC specialist and the last spirit.

It also makes a huge difference what weaponry the team has, obviously. Especially for the spirits.

If this is a tactically balanced match up I predict it will be exciting and that PCs will be spending edge to get out cleanly, and maybe a trauma patch will be needed.

But again the worse cas scenario is just a lost point of edge from everyone to have lonestar or some mafia happen to show up and run the yaks off.

Oh and you mentioned they are soft on game mechanics. This would be a good oportunity to strengthen them up. Give them solid tactical advise that their char should know. Like when to go for the +4 called shot bonus and when not to. Also get them diving behind cover and get some range/vision mods to easily take out the goons. Be sure to tell them to use full defense if they're about to get slaughtered by something. Also remind them of uses for edge. For example spirits are typically loath to use edge when the aren't in danger of more than being disrupted. So if everyone in the team spends an edge to go first they'll probably get to go first (except if the yak hitman spends edge), and that first action will probably take out half of the hit squad force right there.

Of course maybe your PC chars are weak. If you're really worried try running the combat yourself.

Double post. You added stuff while I was typing.

It sounds like you have potent PCs against these things, but that they may be ambused.

More importantly the PCs are not the target. That makes things much more interesting and less deadly. Because presumably the early shots will be made at a full defense going NPC.

So if the PCs have drones or watcher spirits that notice the attack and prevent them from being surprised they'll have the first actions, and then maybe a round of second actions as attacks fly at their NPC instead of them. So it's quite probable they'll come out alive but it will take some clever actions on someones part to keep the NPC alive such as hurling them over some cover, dropping smoke grenades, illusions, etc etc.

Sounds like fun.

"Oh and another important caveat, they erratad the spirits. Their stats are now under control. Equally importantly don't forget that if they materialize that takes a complex action. So everyone gets a free shot at them before they can do anything."

Thanks for the errata notice and the other advice. I've got a first printing book, I'll have to go to the site and get the errata. The combat will mostly likely take place on a cargo ship while it is stilled moored at the Tacoma docks. The Yaks will give them an opportunity to sell out Debroah Jim first and leave the boat. No surprise for either side.

It's a mixed bag on the tactics. The guy playing the mage is very good tactically, and usually helps the others out OOC. Which I'm fine with. The phys ad PC is a Troll with massive amounts of Mystic Armor - hard to kill. The covert ops specialist and the hacker will [hopefully] run for cover. The hacker's already blown one permanent edge already! He tried climbing down the side of a 15 story building with an climbing skill of one. He's not the most tactical guy in the world.

Like Ravor said, I often get wrapped up in creating bad-ass NPCs based on what the runners would likely face - and then get worried later about overkill. I want this to be a challenge - and I think you've helped convince me I'm not being a harsh GM.

If the Mage has 3-4 IPs then I would say 3 Force 7 spirits is not so bad. It really depends on how good this mage character is and those two adepts. Are the PCs going to be facing all of these characters at the same time? Are they going to have the chance to sneak up on them? If they do engage all of them at the same time, will there be any chances for the PCs to pick some of them off before the real fun starts?

Nah with that kind of notice I think it's just enough to be spicey. The mage may call down their own spirits and summon up a third. A least numerically matching the opposition. A good covert ops spec will be getting into a position to get their own little ambush and the decker will probably be using their drones if they aren't much in actual combat.

Of course bound spirits and drones cost money, and your players may still have to spend some edge. So there may still be an ouchie aspect to all this.

In order to keep the challenge up don't hesitate to make things tactically interesting especially with the spirits. The PCs probably will think they've got this one in the bag is a CC guy and the grunts have to rush them. But the spirits can show up behind the PCs and keep things spicey. Note that spirits popping out of ship cooridors the PCs though were clear and fireing off elemental attacks would be a surprise situation, the PCs will want to make those rolls.

Remember much of the fun of SR is in that how a battle goes is extremly dependent on details and tactics. It isn't like some other games where things have a challenge rating and outcomes are fairly independent of details. Of course a byproduct of that is things can seem less risky than they were the difference between breezing through something and a total party kill can be surprisingly narrow.

I've got a tactical curve ball for them. The Yak hitman has ultrasound cyber eyes. If, big if, the battle is swinging too far in the PCs favor. He'll toss out some IR Smoke grenades and Flash Packs. The Yak grunts will have cover across the deck of the ship, making them harder to pick off.

If they're smart, they'll case the ship ahead of time in astral and get the covert opps guy and the hacker drones on board, just in case. They know what ship it is and where it is moored.

Do you have any idea what type of spirits these will be?

I like sunnyside's comment on having the spirits come into play from behind the PCs- Always a nice GM trick. One thing to always remember is that with stealthy characters you can often force surprise checks in the middle of an ongoing combat, which is a nice way to ramp up or scale down the difficulty of an encounter as necessary. Holding back an NPC that the runner team may or may not know about can be a blessing or a curse depending on where the dice fall and how devious you are as a GM. A guy who doesn't enter the battle until the last round may not be able to do much and could possibly just get cut down the second his friends are finished off. On the other hand, he could very well outflank the team and lay down an unopposed full burst as the runners botch their surprise checks. Either way, you as a GM have some options.

A fire, air and water spirit that materialize in the shape of eastern dragons.

One thing I would like to point out is that 7 guys with automatic rifles firing at a smaller group at the same time can do a lot of damage. With the exception of the troll, anyone getting hit by a long burst would likely take some to a lot of damage, varying by stats, cover etc. If you've got mroe than a couple of guys shooting at the same person, then there's modifiers to dodge as well. Figuring in that the hacker and the Covert Ops guy will likely go for cover ,that may leave the troll out front, especially if he's a warrior type that lieks melee weapons, as many of the troll adepts seem to. That could potentially leave one troll facing seven gun men.

Besides, it sounds like the yaks are going to have some idea of what they're facing. I dont' see Jurojin to be the type to not gather intelligence. So they've got a mage (natch, geek the mage first) and a troll adept. Has two marks against him. One , he's an adept so he's dangerous. Two , he's a troll, and they're yaks. So he has a big bulls eye on him. Bad for the troll.

This is a very long winded way of saying that 7 goons may be a bit much. Even if they only have a skill of 2 in automatics, and an agility of 3, you can easily give them a specialization in automatics, and a smartgun link is likely, as is some recoil compensation , allowing them to take some bursts off without penalties.
7 dice for shooting two bursts in a round (or a few less dice on the second shot) from 3-4 shooters is likely to put anyone down.

Perhaps have some come right out of the ood work, and some as back up, arriving late, or coming in waves? Or just a few less goons. The mage will likely be busy aligning his spirits against the enemies for a round or two. If the hitman is smart, he'll use that time to tear in to the mage while the goons deal with the troll and keep the other's heads down. Being out numbered can be very deadly in Shadowrun. Remind them if necessary that running is perfectably acceptable.

Personally if the troll charges I say let him have it. He should actually hold up for a while on full defense if he has a fair edge. Running gives +2. He should have at least 6 reaction (boosted somehow), and maybe 4 die from full defence. So that's 12 dice to start. But after a few of them have shot he'll have to start burning edge and/or taking a little damage. But with the extra time the other players should have cleared many of the other threats. So when the ork gets cut down the goons probably won't be up for shooting him to a full death. And if the distance isn't so far the troll may actually get to close and do some damage.

It's not the NPC stats and equipment that will kill runners. It's what you do with them. One of my classic exercises in a long term game is to have the group encounter the exact same level of opponent in a similar situation and demonstrate the differences when your opponent co ordinates, selects the right targets and tactics, and punishes your weaknesses versus the case where they've had a bad day, feel like going home, don't want to die for the corp, and will quite happily not notice something they might take advantage of to kill the runners if it means they might get to go home at all.

The same statted opponents can do the spectrum of wiping the runners to getting wiped, it all depends what the NPCs, which is me the GM.

The other thing is that unless the players know the stats and can hold you to them, it's easy enough to adjust dice pools during the encounter. Other then personalities and equipment, I tend to view the NPC as more opposing dice pools for tests then a set of stats. (While GMing)

In all this I should point out that SR combat is all about the details. Adding some cover near the PCs, shortening the gap between the PCs and NPCs by ten meters, and exactly how combat is entered into can all be huge factors that can totally swing a battle.