Full Version: Command program
Command seems to never be involved in any sort of rolls by raw, so is there a point to buying it above rating 1?
command is used for the "control device" action. this is basically used any time you want to interract with the meatworld through the matrix by directly controlling a device, but not by rigging it.
in particular, you can use it to (for example) remotely control a drone, with a dicepool of command + relevant skill... gunnery for shooting, pilot <vehicle type> to drive, and so forth.
if you were to hack into an automated factory that handles custom orders or whatever, you could order it to build whatever it does normally, or you could directly control it and build a vehicle with a dicepool of command + the appropriate mechanics ability.
so, if you intend to ever directly control (ie not by just giving it orders) something through the matrix that can't be rigged, or you just don't wish to rig it, you will need the command program, and the higher the rating of the command program, the better you can be at controlling those devices.
in particular, you can use it to (for example) remotely control a drone, with a dicepool of command + relevant skill... gunnery for shooting, pilot <vehicle type> to drive, and so forth.
if you were to hack into an automated factory that handles custom orders or whatever, you could order it to build whatever it does normally, or you could directly control it and build a vehicle with a dicepool of command + the appropriate mechanics ability.
so, if you intend to ever directly control (ie not by just giving it orders) something through the matrix that can't be rigged, or you just don't wish to rig it, you will need the command program, and the higher the rating of the command program, the better you can be at controlling those devices.
I believe it is listed on page 121 or 120, under a section titled "Controlling Devices." If you control a vehicle remotely (like a RC car for eg) then you roll Command program + Vehicle skill. You also use Command program when remotely controlling any device such as panning a camera or operating automated factory equipment.
More popularly it's used for real vehicles. I.e. drones.
Essentially there are three "modes" for operating a drone.
In the first you just tell the dog brain what to do.
In the second you control it using command+skill.
And in the third you "jump in"
The advantages of the second type are that in when using it you don't get all the nasty feedback like you do when jumped in, and that often you'll have a higher dice pool.
TMs, who can boost their command up to twelve out of the box and can use a machine sprite to get some extra die on top of that, often use the second control mode to put twenty plus dice on the table when they use drones.
Essentially there are three "modes" for operating a drone.
In the first you just tell the dog brain what to do.
In the second you control it using command+skill.
And in the third you "jump in"
The advantages of the second type are that in when using it you don't get all the nasty feedback like you do when jumped in, and that often you'll have a higher dice pool.
TMs, who can boost their command up to twelve out of the box and can use a machine sprite to get some extra die on top of that, often use the second control mode to put twenty plus dice on the table when they use drones.
basically command is a kind of software remote control for RC vehicles 
its can add and remove buttons, switches and joysticks as needed, and operate in both AR and VR.
nothing like sitting on a park bench while driving a real life rally car down a real life track using AR
its can add and remove buttons, switches and joysticks as needed, and operate in both AR and VR.
nothing like sitting on a park bench while driving a real life rally car down a real life track using AR
For controlling, how many initiative passes do you get? 3 like a drone by itself or however many passes you have in meat body?
i would suspect as many as your meat.
In response to what initiative to use with a drone:
If using the Control program in AR, your meatbody initiative is used. If you are actively rigging in full VR mode, but not "jumped into" the drone and simply Controlling it, you would use your VR matrix initiative as you would when rigging.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway
If using the Control program in AR, your meatbody initiative is used. If you are actively rigging in full VR mode, but not "jumped into" the drone and simply Controlling it, you would use your VR matrix initiative as you would when rigging.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway
So Command is the preferred method for TMs when controlling drones? Would a Rigger Adaptation on a vehicle (not just a drone) allow it to be Commanded in the same way?
Been wracking my brains trying to make a Rigger-esque Technomancer.
Been wracking my brains trying to make a Rigger-esque Technomancer.
| QUOTE (Marwynn) |
| So Command is the preferred method for TMs when controlling drones? Would a Rigger Adaptation on a vehicle (not just a drone) allow it to be Commanded in the same way? Been wracking my brains trying to make a Rigger-esque Technomancer. |
my advice: decide for yourself. multi-page threads have sprung up over precisely what is and is not required to rig a vehicle, remotely control it, give it commands, etc.
personally, i run it that the rigger adaptation is only needed for rigging. you can give commands to any vehicle with a pilot rating, and you can remotely control any vehicle with a pilot rating. but that is certainly not the only interpretation.
| QUOTE (Ddays) |
| For controlling, how many initiative passes do you get? 3 like a drone by itself or however many passes you have in meat body? |
Depends how you are controlling it:
AR = Meat IP
Cold VR = 2
Hot VR = 3
Overclocked TM = 4
Note that when you are "jumped in" you don't use Command. You use it exactly as if you were actually controlling the vehicle with a steering wheel.
The only thing that differentiates a Rigger from a Hacker is a Control Rig. This little piece of cyberware is why Riggers jump into their vehicles instead of RC or dog brain. It gives +2 to your dice pool but costs about .5 essence.
If you want to make a TM that's Rigger-esque just make a Rigger but don't add the Control Rig. You'll need good Reaction (as the default for Pilot skills) and of course all the Piloting skills. I'd recommend to start that you take 1-3 in each Pilot and Specialize into the specific type of vehicle you'll be using and then only purchase those types of vehicles. This will save you a TON of BPs, maybe even give you enough for some Mechanics skills. You'll want a good EW skill (at least 5) and the CFs for that (Decrypt, Scan, Analyze, Sniffer, and Spoof) and thread the ones that you can't afford (ECCM, Defuse, Encrypt, etc) or use Sprites. Remember that you can buy regular programs to defend your drones, so only get the offensive CFs that you'll need to hack their signal network.
actually, reaction for your piloting skills is useless. you use command CF when piloting.
that being said, reaction *will* do a fair amount as far as keeping you alive in meat combat, which is a valid concern... you can't always rely on not being the target, even if you do typically aim for being the bunkered rigger type... sooner or later, you gotta step out of the bunker.
that being said, reaction *will* do a fair amount as far as keeping you alive in meat combat, which is a valid concern... you can't always rely on not being the target, even if you do typically aim for being the bunkered rigger type... sooner or later, you gotta step out of the bunker.
Not to derail the topic or anything (and I didn't want to start a new topic just for one simple question), but I was curious about people's opinions on this:
I'm considering designing a hacker/rigger character in the near future, but I don't know a damn thing about any of the rules thereof. Which style is the easiest to use from a player's point of view? Traditional or technomancy? What are the major perks of both?
Thanks in advance.
I'm considering designing a hacker/rigger character in the near future, but I don't know a damn thing about any of the rules thereof. Which style is the easiest to use from a player's point of view? Traditional or technomancy? What are the major perks of both?
Thanks in advance.
easiest is definitely hacker.
pick up all hacking and common use programs at 5 (or 6 if you want to be a little metagamey), get the best commlink you can buy at chargen (response 5, system/firewall/signal 6). also pick up an agent, rating 4. probably pick up 1 or 2 junk commlinks also... just use stock commlinks and OS. buy the skill groups (electronics and cracking) at 4 each, and get yourself access to hotsim.
that's pretty much it... your dicepool is basically the same for everything hacking. may as well pick up a second specialisation while you're at it (samurai lite and face seem to be the preferred choices if you don't want to go for drone rigger)
[edit] this is just the *easiest* build... you could also choose to buy the cracking group separately and put hacking at 6, which certainly does improve your dicepool, and you could even specialise it in something if you want [/edit]
[edit 2] hmmm... should've looked more closely, you specifically wanted a hacker/rigger. ok, so now you'll probably want to pick up a pilot program, rating 4, and all autosofts at rating 4. first thing to do is crack the copy protection on all those autosofts. remember that certain autosofts actually have several variants (ex targetting has separate autosofts for pistols, automatics, heavy, and longarms... also each individual exotic weapon and archery, i suppose). to start, you'll probably want to use steel lynx and dobermans as your combat drones (remember to give them a camera sensor with a smartgun link in it) because they have a response of 4 (you will need to improve their pilot rating to 4 to use that, however). [/edit 2]
pick up all hacking and common use programs at 5 (or 6 if you want to be a little metagamey), get the best commlink you can buy at chargen (response 5, system/firewall/signal 6). also pick up an agent, rating 4. probably pick up 1 or 2 junk commlinks also... just use stock commlinks and OS. buy the skill groups (electronics and cracking) at 4 each, and get yourself access to hotsim.
that's pretty much it... your dicepool is basically the same for everything hacking. may as well pick up a second specialisation while you're at it (samurai lite and face seem to be the preferred choices if you don't want to go for drone rigger)
[edit] this is just the *easiest* build... you could also choose to buy the cracking group separately and put hacking at 6, which certainly does improve your dicepool, and you could even specialise it in something if you want
[/edit][edit 2] hmmm... should've looked more closely, you specifically wanted a hacker/rigger. ok, so now you'll probably want to pick up a pilot program, rating 4, and all autosofts at rating 4. first thing to do is crack the copy protection on all those autosofts. remember that certain autosofts actually have several variants (ex targetting has separate autosofts for pistols, automatics, heavy, and longarms... also each individual exotic weapon and archery, i suppose). to start, you'll probably want to use steel lynx and dobermans as your combat drones (remember to give them a camera sensor with a smartgun link in it) because they have a response of 4 (you will need to improve their pilot rating to 4 to use that, however). [/edit 2]
"traditional"= straightforward, versitile, and leaves you with BP to be something on the side or max your edge or something.
Technomancer= add about 3 steps onto everything you do, a bunch more rules, CRAZY INSANE DICE POOLS AND STEALTH RATINGS, total BP sink (You'll be lucky if you can stand up), total karma sink, drones can be unspoofable(which is huge).
Technomancer= add about 3 steps onto everything you do, a bunch more rules, CRAZY INSANE DICE POOLS AND STEALTH RATINGS, total BP sink (You'll be lucky if you can stand up), total karma sink, drones can be unspoofable(which is huge).
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| actually, reaction for your piloting skills is useless. you use command CF when piloting. that being said, reaction *will* do a fair amount as far as keeping you alive in meat combat, which is a valid concern... you can't always rely on not being the target, even if you do typically aim for being the bunkered rigger type... sooner or later, you gotta step out of the bunker. |
If you want to be rigger-esque then it means you'll want to jump into the drones. Which isn't the Command program.
actually, command works just as well for a hacker as rigging does, with the exception of the control rig (can be replaced with codeslinger: control device, though this costs an extra 8 Bp) and the reduced threshold for vehicle actions while jumped in with full VR. on the other hand, feedback concerns should be drastically reduced, and there is a "remote operation" specialisation in most of the pilot skills.
remote controlling also has the benefit of running off of the hacker's commlink stats, whereas rigging requires each individual vehicle that you want to rig to have a high response rating. probably the only concern i would have is that i, personally, would rule that there is an order of importance that the drone will consider when receiving commands. most important is rigging, imo, then remote control, then giving commands. of course, should you choose to rip out the rigger adaptation and sell it on the black market, then no one can rig your drones anyways... but according to some people, that also means they can't be remote controlled, nor will they have a pilot rating anymore and therefore they won't be able to be given orders either (personally, i am of the opinion that pilot rating and remote control have the same requirements, but rigger adaptation does not come free with a pilot program, however).
remote controlling also has the benefit of running off of the hacker's commlink stats, whereas rigging requires each individual vehicle that you want to rig to have a high response rating. probably the only concern i would have is that i, personally, would rule that there is an order of importance that the drone will consider when receiving commands. most important is rigging, imo, then remote control, then giving commands. of course, should you choose to rip out the rigger adaptation and sell it on the black market, then no one can rig your drones anyways... but according to some people, that also means they can't be remote controlled, nor will they have a pilot rating anymore and therefore they won't be able to be given orders either (personally, i am of the opinion that pilot rating and remote control have the same requirements, but rigger adaptation does not come free with a pilot program, however).
I think Command should really be named Control instead. The description says you can "control a device" and the Issue Command device does not seem to use the Command program (though the Control Device action does *grumble*.
BTW: When a rigger is Jumped In, what's the dice pool for firing a weapon? Pilot + Gunnery, Pilot + Automatics/Longarms/Heavy Weapons?
BTW: When a rigger is Jumped In, what's the dice pool for firing a weapon? Pilot + Gunnery, Pilot + Automatics/Longarms/Heavy Weapons?
when a rigger is jumped in to a vehicle, the dice pool is response (the matrix attribute response for that vehicle) + gunnery to shoot.
pilot + targetting autosoft is what the drone would use if you gave it an order.
pilot + targetting autosoft is what the drone would use if you gave it an order.
To clarify:
Issuing Commands - Let the dogbrain Pilot figure it out.
Controlling Devices - Play it like a video game. Use Command + Appropriate Skill (Mechanic, Vehicle).
Jumping In - You "load" yourself into the drone, overwriting the Drone's software with the Rigger's "meat" stats and skills.
I agree with Command being renamed into 'Control', which makes much more sense.
Say my poor, frail Rigger is cornered but his trusty Doberman has a full belt of ammo for its Ingram White Knight. I can tell it to go off on its own and kill! kill! kill!, I can hide in a corner and 'control' it 'manually', or I can hide in the same corner and take full possession of the Doberman.
So then if one were to go 'full' Control Rig Rigger it'd pay to have decent Meat combat stats. At least, Reaction and Gunnery.
So what's the point of Command then (for Drone Rigging purposes)? You'll still be using your Meat's skills for combat if it comes to it. You can issue orders still while Jumped In, are you able to Command multiple Drones in the same Initiative Phase (assuming performing two Simple Actions for two separate Drones)?
Or are Commands considered Complex actions? Doesn't say.
Another question since I can't fall asleep: Why don't more people use Drones? Autonomously that is. Give them decent software and you'll have something that is more or less a trained warhorse. Hey, Rotodrone, lob some smoke grenades over there, thereby covering our retreat! You, flybot, zip around this section on the map and so on and so forth.
Do they constantly fall to the privations of GMs?
Issuing Commands - Let the dogbrain Pilot figure it out.
Controlling Devices - Play it like a video game. Use Command + Appropriate Skill (Mechanic, Vehicle).
Jumping In - You "load" yourself into the drone, overwriting the Drone's software with the Rigger's "meat" stats and skills.
I agree with Command being renamed into 'Control', which makes much more sense.
Say my poor, frail Rigger is cornered but his trusty Doberman has a full belt of ammo for its Ingram White Knight. I can tell it to go off on its own and kill! kill! kill!, I can hide in a corner and 'control' it 'manually', or I can hide in the same corner and take full possession of the Doberman.
So then if one were to go 'full' Control Rig Rigger it'd pay to have decent Meat combat stats. At least, Reaction and Gunnery.
So what's the point of Command then (for Drone Rigging purposes)? You'll still be using your Meat's skills for combat if it comes to it. You can issue orders still while Jumped In, are you able to Command multiple Drones in the same Initiative Phase (assuming performing two Simple Actions for two separate Drones)?
Or are Commands considered Complex actions? Doesn't say.
Another question since I can't fall asleep: Why don't more people use Drones? Autonomously that is. Give them decent software and you'll have something that is more or less a trained warhorse. Hey, Rotodrone, lob some smoke grenades over there, thereby covering our retreat! You, flybot, zip around this section on the map and so on and so forth.
Do they constantly fall to the privations of GMs?
| QUOTE (Marwynn @ Jul 25 2007, 02:53 PM) |
| Another question since I can't fall asleep: Why don't more people use Drones? Autonomously that is. Give them decent software and you'll have something that is more or less a trained warhorse. Hey, Rotodrone, lob some smoke grenades over there, thereby covering our retreat! You, flybot, zip around this section on the map and so on and so forth. |
Not enough Build Points to cover the skills and/or resources necessary.
| QUOTE (Marwynn) |
| Or are Commands considered Complex actions? Doesn't say. |
SR4, pg 219 shows Issue Command (dogbrain) as a Simple Action and Control Device as a Complex Action. On page 221, it mentions that you can issue an identical command to multiple drones with one simple action.
I'm also a little unsure of when you're better off Jumping In versus using Control Device on your drones. Jumping In lets you use your Control Rig. It may give your drone 3 Initiative Passes (3 IPs for Hot Sim vs. 2 for the drone itsself). On the other hand, you could take Stun damage when your drone gets hit. The dice benefit to Jumping In doesn't seem overwhelming, but I haven't worked it all out.
| QUOTE |
| Another question since I can't fall asleep: Why don't more people use Drones? Autonomously that is. Give them decent software and you'll have something that is more or less a trained warhorse. Hey, Rotodrone, lob some smoke grenades over there, thereby covering our retreat! You, flybot, zip around this section on the map and so on and so forth. Do they constantly fall to the privations of GMs? |
Something like that. As a GM I have a ton of crap to keep my eyes and mind on during any given scene, much less a combat scene. Combat can include a hacker hacking, sammies sammy...ing..., a mage in astral and a rigger zooming around with several different toys. All in all, I have to split up my time amongst the players and make sure that the scene does not sag onto just one person (as riggers and hackers are especially known to do).
Also, there is the issue of parity. If a single runner wishes to add not one, not two but several White Knight LMGs into combat encounters the bar raises for the entire team. The firepower necessary to destroy those drones can instantly neutralize other members. If it is a hacker, the other hacker in your group is spoken for... If its raw firepower... Well, trashing a drone is one thing, but when the drone is gone those bullets hafta start going into meatbodies.
It just gets messy.
I try very hard to encourage riggers in my groups to stick with mostly passive drones (information gathering, electronic warfare, communications, sat-map servers) and have only a couple of combat drones that they consider expendable. Its hard for a LMG to be in a combat scene without escalating the combat "to the next level", so to speak.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Not enough Build Points to cover the skills and/or resources necessary. |
Well there's the thing... what skills? All you're doing is issuing orders, not even bothering with the Command program.
It's apparently a simple action to give orders, thanks for that clear up, so it could be useful to have around as a common tool.
And I can appreciate it dragging down some games and providing some rather unhealthy levels of firepower. But also, they gotta be hack-able by the NPCs right? That has to be a danger, especially since the drone's owner may not be particularly skilled on that front.
Spoofing that should be fairly easy.
Jumped In (Note that a VCR is not required for jumping in)
DRONE Response + Character Skill (Rigger Adaptation Required)
Remotely Controlled, VR or AR
Commlink Program Command + Character Skill
Ordered
Command + Skill, to issue by Character (Optional)
Pilot + Pilot Skill, to execute by Drone
DRONE Response + Character Skill (Rigger Adaptation Required)
Remotely Controlled, VR or AR
Commlink Program Command + Character Skill
Ordered
Command + Skill, to issue by Character (Optional)
Pilot + Pilot Skill, to execute by Drone
Sometimes there is a bit of a metagame thing to it. GMs are sometimes known to alter the threat level based on the characters, even for the same adventure, even if they origionally planned something else.
What I'm saying is that if you got into the fight with just the characters you'd face X guards with small weapons, but if you bring along a pack of drones there will be X+6 guards and a couple will have brought APDS sniper rifles or something.
The end result being that you just end up with a higher risk situation.
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Another metagame problem is that some GMs are sometimes reluctant to kill players (who can spend/burn edge to get out of death anyway). However they consider a blown drone to just be dramatic.
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Also there is the "realistic" fact that often you are trying to be sneaky. Steel lynxes are not sneaky. And the mage might be able to trid phantasm the getaway car while the hacker swaps VINs with some car going a different direct, but they won't be able to do that trick for all the drones. Leaving them in a lurch.
Remember you are not the biggest fish in town. If they have to they can call in the Metroplex guard. And even lonestar has a couple Tbirds. I think they're Lobos with modifications for their air-to-ground land shark missles.
And while Lone Star might not be up for a big confrontation if the corp you hit will sweep things under the rug, but if you do something that will get you on the evening news LS wants to make darn sure the story ends with some pictures of captured purps or the flaming wreckage of the perps vehicle(s) or something.
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Also it's just extra complications and book keeping for players.
Regardless it does happen.
What I'm saying is that if you got into the fight with just the characters you'd face X guards with small weapons, but if you bring along a pack of drones there will be X+6 guards and a couple will have brought APDS sniper rifles or something.
The end result being that you just end up with a higher risk situation.
----------------------
Another metagame problem is that some GMs are sometimes reluctant to kill players (who can spend/burn edge to get out of death anyway). However they consider a blown drone to just be dramatic.
-----------------------
Also there is the "realistic" fact that often you are trying to be sneaky. Steel lynxes are not sneaky. And the mage might be able to trid phantasm the getaway car while the hacker swaps VINs with some car going a different direct, but they won't be able to do that trick for all the drones. Leaving them in a lurch.
Remember you are not the biggest fish in town. If they have to they can call in the Metroplex guard. And even lonestar has a couple Tbirds. I think they're Lobos with modifications for their air-to-ground land shark missles.
And while Lone Star might not be up for a big confrontation if the corp you hit will sweep things under the rug, but if you do something that will get you on the evening news LS wants to make darn sure the story ends with some pictures of captured purps or the flaming wreckage of the perps vehicle(s) or something.
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Also it's just extra complications and book keeping for players.
Regardless it does happen.
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