Is there a point in a magician's career when, through karma gain and initiation, he will no longer be able to counteract drain from his most powerful spells?
That is to say, is there a limit on how powerful a spell can be, because drain will be impossible to negate?
Full Version: Cap for High Level Magicians?
not as such no.
provided they take the centering metamagic, that is.
provided they take the centering metamagic, that is.
Sure, because even our unlimited Karma uber Mage can only raise her Drain Stats so high, and Centering only gives you additional dice for the Drain Test.
Of course, if a Mage is willing to burn Edge then the issue may become moot depending on how your DM feels about the Hand of God.
*Edit*
Remember that Centering only gives you extra dice equal to your Grade, and a good semi-accurate rule of thumb is 3 Dice = 1 Sucess.
Drain increases faster then Centering does so even with it your head will explode at some point with nothing you can do about it save Edge.
Of course, if a Mage is willing to burn Edge then the issue may become moot depending on how your DM feels about the Hand of God.
*Edit*
Remember that Centering only gives you extra dice equal to your Grade, and a good semi-accurate rule of thumb is 3 Dice = 1 Sucess.
Drain increases faster then Centering does so even with it your head will explode at some point with nothing you can do about it save Edge.
Re-read and understood. At first level of initiation a magician taking this will be able to counteract drain with the same ability no matter how powerful they get.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Sure, because even our unlimited Karma uber Mage can only raise her Drain Stats so high, and Centering only gives you additional dice for the Drain Test. Of course, if a Mage is willing to burn Edge then the issue may become moot depending on how your DM feels about the Hand of God. |
not true. given an infinite amount of karma, you will be able to roll an infinite amount of drain dice, because centering gives extra dice based on initiate grade, which is bought with karma.
there will be something of diminishing returns, mind you, but this is somewhat countered by the fact that as you approach infinite karma, you will begin more and more to have any individual roll of the dice pool conform to average results... which means you can predict with a great degree of accuracy how powerful of a spell you can cast without worrying about disintegrating yourself.
of course, this assumes truly infinite karma. in any actual situation, it will suffer from diminishing returns to some extent, and it will eventually get to a point where your progression is effectively capped because nothing is a challenge anymore, and therefore you stop gaining karma i would suppose =P
nice. I was asking for an npc magician I am making. As you may have guessed I don't have all that much experience in the SR world.
Sorry but you are mistaken Jaid because Drain increases at a flat ( Force/2 ) while Centering only averages at ( Grade/3 ), so there is a point where the uber Mage's spells will cause more Drain then he can safely resist if cast at full force.
Infinity/3 = Infinity
Infinity/2 = Infinity
Infinity/2 = Infinity
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Infinity/3 = Infinity Infinity/2 = Infinity |
Dirty dirty dirty, better to say you cannot devide into infinity... Treating infinity as though it were a number causes the largest misconceptions about the infinite.
Even so, the drain is capped at that exact force that you choose. So, yes, with infinite karma, infinite magic and infinite initiate grades, the drain resistance wins over the drain, because you can't choose an infinite force when casting. You chose a clearly numerical and therefore limited force level, whose following drain code gets beaten by the unlimited drain resistance dies provided by the Centering metamagic technique.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Sorry but you are mistaken Jaid because Drain increases at a flat ( Force/2 ) while Centering only averages at ( Grade/3 ), so there is a point where the uber Mage's spells will cause more Drain then he can safely resist if cast at full force. |
For practical purposes, you are correct. But assuming infinite karma, you are incorrect.
You are making the mistake of assuming that just because the two approach infinity at different rates that there will be some difference between them in the end. This is untrue. Both approach infinity.
One can simply adjust the rate at which he raises the force of his castings in relation the the rate at which he increases his grade, since you are not required to cast at the maximum possible force.
To represent it mathematically, F/2 = G/4, F=G2/4, F=G/2, 2F =G
In other words, assuming you use the hit-buy option, you can always resist the drain completely so long as the force is half of your grade (assuming no natural drain resistance dice and no drain modifiers).
More specifically, D = R/4, D= 4R (where D is drain and R is residence dice)
Now, with infinite karma and Centering R can increase without bound. One fourth of infinity, ∞/4, is still infinity.
Ok, now that we've gotten that bit of snarkiness out of the way, in the context of resisting Drain ( X/2 ) is going to increase faster then ( X/3 ), rounding issues aside.
Basically it is this:
Drain increases as F/2.
The dice used to soak drain increases as grade.
The amount of drain you can soak with a given confidence increases with increased dice, and is unbounded. Thus given a perpetual progression of grade you can have a perpetually increasing force at which you can be confidant to within any non-unity probability that you will not take drain. However since this is all integer units on force and dice you will not have a smooth progression.
But no matter how good you are, if you are looking for a 99% probability of completely soaking drain continued initiations will eventually allow you to increase the maximum force you are capable of casting and maintaining your probability of 99% of the time not hurting yourself.
Keep in mind that this force does not increase nearly as fast as the maximum force you are capable of casting given Magicx2 as a cap.
Drain increases as F/2.
The dice used to soak drain increases as grade.
The amount of drain you can soak with a given confidence increases with increased dice, and is unbounded. Thus given a perpetual progression of grade you can have a perpetually increasing force at which you can be confidant to within any non-unity probability that you will not take drain. However since this is all integer units on force and dice you will not have a smooth progression.
But no matter how good you are, if you are looking for a 99% probability of completely soaking drain continued initiations will eventually allow you to increase the maximum force you are capable of casting and maintaining your probability of 99% of the time not hurting yourself.
Keep in mind that this force does not increase nearly as fast as the maximum force you are capable of casting given Magicx2 as a cap.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| One fourth of infinity, ∞/4, is still infinity. |
Better to say the limit of n as n aproaches infinity is the same as the limit of n/4 as n approches infinity.
Ehrm, guys, no matter what, you don't cast spells at infinite force, even if you can select from an infinite range. You cast a spell at a clearly definite grade, because you must choose it.
Even if you have infinite magic, in the end, you must choose the force of the spell or the spirit you're casting/summoning. The drain becomes a real number that is less than infinite, while the drain resistance dices provided by the infinite high initiate grade and the Centering metamagic technique is still infinite.
However, the one good thing to counter infinite strong mages is that they can't stop resist the drain, because the dices are infinite, and therefore never end, and so, the infinitely strong mage is forever trapped in the drain resistance moment.
Even if you have infinite magic, in the end, you must choose the force of the spell or the spirit you're casting/summoning. The drain becomes a real number that is less than infinite, while the drain resistance dices provided by the infinite high initiate grade and the Centering metamagic technique is still infinite.
However, the one good thing to counter infinite strong mages is that they can't stop resist the drain, because the dices are infinite, and therefore never end, and so, the infinitely strong mage is forever trapped in the drain resistance moment.
| QUOTE (Demerzel @ Jul 26 2007, 04:01 PM) | ||
Better to say the limit of n as n aproaches infinity is the same as the limit of n/4 as n approches infinity. |
Yes, it is, but it confuses the kids.
There is, of course, the issue of cost.
Σ (i = x to n) of (10+n6)
(where x is your current grade, assuming it is already equal to maximum magic) Adds up quickly.
Particle Beam, you are misunderstanding the nature of infinity.
The point is that your spell force can be any real integer without restriction. There are an infinite number of real integers and your spell force can always be high, it increases without bounds.
Your grade and your magic will always be a real integer n, but it can always be made higher.
If you are talking about a Mage who really really doesn't care about karma or his spirit reputation, you could spend a few weeks cooking out a ton of ally spirit forumae and repeatedly have it take the drain of your force magic*2 spells. Yeah it will slag the drek of a force 1 ally spirit but it was only 8 karma. That kind of brutality could make for a really loathsome villain.
^ Could be a good run where the PCs are working for a free spirit.
| QUOTE (Particle_Beam) |
| because the dices are infinite, and therefore never end, and so, the infinitely strong mage is forever trapped in the drain resistance moment. |
This is the kind of misconception of the infinite that occur when you throw it around spurriously and claim to be able to devide things into it.
PBs statement is similar to Zeno's Paradox that you cannot get from point A to point B because you at some point have to pass halfway between them.
Hehe. They're arguing about what happens when you have infinite karma. 
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| This is the kind of misconception of the infinite that occur when you throw it around spurriously and claim to be able to devide things into it. PBs statement is similar to Zeno's Paradox that you cannot get from point A to point B because you at some point have to pass halfway between them. |
However, contrarily to Zenon, the dices are of an infinite value, and the time to check the resistance dices also become infinite because of the infinite values, whereas the way from point A to B is finite and only involved infinite time-splitting, where the solution was the relativity of time.
But you cannot have infinite dice, just as you cannot divide into the infinite. The only way you can bound an infinite is if they are infantesimals, such as in Zeno. You cannot have an infinite dice pool, you can at best approach an infinite dice pool...
| QUOTE (Particle_Beam) | ||
However, contrarily to Zenon, the dices are of an infinite value, and the time to check the resistance dices also become infinite because of the infinite values, whereas the way from point A to B is finite and only involved infinite time-splitting, where the solution was the relativity of time. |
You are incorrect. It is the karma that is infinite. You can only spend karma during downtime, according to the rules. You certainly cannot spend karma during a test. Therefore, your dice pool can be arbitrarily large but it is a real integer.
I assumed that the infinite Karma was already spent to create infinite magic, initiate grades and whatever can be brought with it. Yet, still, in the end, all that happens is that a character gets forever trapped into a moment of doing a test that can never ever end. Because here in this discussion, time is not relative.
You cannot have infinite magic or infinite grades. Infinity is not a number, it is a state. It is the state of increasing without bounds.
Neither magic ratings nor initiate grades can be in that state. It must be an integer. But, that integer is arbitrary because there is no limit on karma.
Neither magic ratings nor initiate grades can be in that state. It must be an integer. But, that integer is arbitrary because there is no limit on karma.
Well *I* use a hard cap on magic, with the best Elven magician in teh world having a Magic of 8 that caps at 12 with initiation. This means that they could throw a Force 24 spell, resisting with about 36 dice. (6 will, 6 Logic, 12 magic, 12 Centering). ... That'd take about half of it, reducing them to ash from teh 12 physical left over.
So, they'd better have some foci and spiritual backup.
Now, for a more open-ended world, you can run numbers, really, for, say, a Force 60 spell tossed by a Initiate 24 and his 30 Magic rating, do some crunching, and start finding out where the law of averages is gonna cook the guy.
But, really, just assume that the rate of Drain will increase faster than the resistance dice successes (1 vs 1/3!) and, as such, you'll eventually hit a mathematical limit.
Or, you can use Wakshaani's Magic Cap and your life will be better. )
So, they'd better have some foci and spiritual backup.
Now, for a more open-ended world, you can run numbers, really, for, say, a Force 60 spell tossed by a Initiate 24 and his 30 Magic rating, do some crunching, and start finding out where the law of averages is gonna cook the guy.
But, really, just assume that the rate of Drain will increase faster than the resistance dice successes (1 vs 1/3!) and, as such, you'll eventually hit a mathematical limit.
Or, you can use Wakshaani's Magic Cap and your life will be better. )
As a side note:
Well with infinte karma goes:
Bond Infinite grade Cetnering Foci
As a side line:
Only one foci can add to a 'test'
is the 'centering' metamagic porition of the drain resitance the same test or a seperate test?
Can you use a Centering Foci AND a spellcasting foci (to resist drain).
It could be argued (in a munchkin kind of way), that the cetnering foci is adding dice to the centering metamagic (which then adds dice to the drain resistance test)
Infinte force could be reached merely by having infinite*3 grade iniitiation. Sure you might not be able to survive casting the spell as strong as you could .... You could cast it at what ever force you wanted as long as you had intitiated whatever force *3
Well with infinte karma goes:
Bond Infinite grade Cetnering Foci
As a side line:
Only one foci can add to a 'test'
is the 'centering' metamagic porition of the drain resitance the same test or a seperate test?
Can you use a Centering Foci AND a spellcasting foci (to resist drain).
It could be argued (in a munchkin kind of way), that the cetnering foci is adding dice to the centering metamagic (which then adds dice to the drain resistance test)
Infinte force could be reached merely by having infinite*3 grade iniitiation. Sure you might not be able to survive casting the spell as strong as you could .... You could cast it at what ever force you wanted as long as you had intitiated whatever force *3
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Hehe. They're arguing about what happens when you have infinite karma. |
I chalk it up to everyone being bored waiting for AUG.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| You cannot have infinite magic or infinite grades. Infinity is not a number, it is a state. It is the state of increasing without bounds. Neither magic ratings nor initiate grades can be in that state. It must be an integer. But, that integer is arbitrary because there is no limit on karma. |
Exactly, which is why this discussion is rather silly, even if your Initiate Grade and Magic were forever increasing you still have to resist the Drain using whatever real numbers they were at the moment you cast the spell, at which point it's very likely that your Mage's head will simply explode.
<><><><><>
Wakshaani well personally I also use a Hard Cap, but I put everyone on equal terms with Magic 6 ( 9 ) unless they buy the Magical version of the Lucky Quality in which case they can have Magic 7 ( 10 ).
Oh, if you go the route of a Hard Cap, one hole that you have to plug is rule that any Magic Loss from cyberware can not be raised be simply initiating again.
The way I see it; there are two limits being discussed here. Magic x 2 is the hard cap for the most powerful spell a magician can cast. You can come to a limit of when a magician can no longer ever hope to resist casting a spell at magic x 2. This is true, and all well and good, but that doesn’t mean the magicians power suddenly stop progressing with future initiations.
Now the other limit is the real limit, as I see it. This limit is set by a safety threshold. Say I want to be 85% sure that casting this spell won’t hurt me in any way. Then you can determine a Drain DV as a function of your drain resistance dice pool that allows you to cast the spell and be 85% certain you will take zero damage. The more dice you get for drain resistance the higher force of spell you can cast and not take any damage with a given certainty, so long as you don’t say that you must be 100% certain, anything less and your maximum safe drain DV will increase in an unbounded way.
Now the other limit is the real limit, as I see it. This limit is set by a safety threshold. Say I want to be 85% sure that casting this spell won’t hurt me in any way. Then you can determine a Drain DV as a function of your drain resistance dice pool that allows you to cast the spell and be 85% certain you will take zero damage. The more dice you get for drain resistance the higher force of spell you can cast and not take any damage with a given certainty, so long as you don’t say that you must be 100% certain, anything less and your maximum safe drain DV will increase in an unbounded way.
Sure, and what I'm saying is that looking at the progression of Drain ( F/2 ) vs Centering ( G/3 ) logically there comes a point where even without overcasting you wouldn't be able to survive casting a spell at your full ( Magic ).
*Edit*
Assuming of course that you raise your ( Magic ) to it's cap. (Just to be completely clear and hopefully avoid a similar side-rail as the "Infinity" discussion.)
*Edit*
Assuming of course that you raise your ( Magic ) to it's cap. (Just to be completely clear and hopefully avoid a similar side-rail as the "Infinity" discussion.)
| QUOTE (RedRum) |
| Is there a point in a magician's career when, through karma gain and initiation, he will no longer be able to counteract drain from his most powerful spells? That is to say, is there a limit on how powerful a spell can be, because drain will be impossible to negate? |
So the problem appears to be that you are answering his first question regarding maximum force and I'm answering the question after he clarified it. Because the "limit on how powerful a spell can be, because drain will be impossible to negate?" is not the maximum force a magician can cast.
Of course that is true. But you never have to cast at a force equal to your full magic rating. In many instances, it is even wasteful to do so (you only really need a force equal to the number of hits you want for most spells) Direct Combat spells would be the exception (no area spells, of course, due to the huge radii they will have).
Assuming that you use the buy rule (there is no reason you shouldn't in this thought experiment), that would be (magic rating)/4 which, incidentally, would also be about what you could buy off with your centering dice.
Since you can choose an arbitrary magic rating and grade in this experiment, you can literally cast at any force without worrying about drain.
If you choose to roll instead of buy, however, it becomes substantially more dnagerous as drain increases, as fluke failures do happen.
Assuming that you use the buy rule (there is no reason you shouldn't in this thought experiment), that would be (magic rating)/4 which, incidentally, would also be about what you could buy off with your centering dice.
Since you can choose an arbitrary magic rating and grade in this experiment, you can literally cast at any force without worrying about drain.
If you choose to roll instead of buy, however, it becomes substantially more dnagerous as drain increases, as fluke failures do happen.
Well the way I see things, I'm answering both questions at once, I see his clarification as building upon his first question.
In fact, personally I think we are actually trying to say the same basic thing in the end, we are just using different apporches in our answers.
In fact, personally I think we are actually trying to say the same basic thing in the end, we are just using different apporches in our answers.
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Jul 26 2007, 01:14 PM) |
| Drain increases faster then Centering does so even with it your head will explode at some point with nothing you can do about it save Edge. |
I guess I'm looking at that statement and saying, "No."
You see drain increases as high as you choose to cast the spell. You make a choice based on risk. If you as hyzmarca recomends assume that you are buying hits with 1/4 pool as successes on the Drain Resistance Test then the Maximum force you can cast without taking damage goes up by two every 4 initiation grades. Or by 2 every 2 initiation grades if you assume that you bond a new maxed out centering focus every 2 initiation grades. So there is no exploding head syndrom unless you want to make your head explode.
Edit: Err... Is there some sort of upper limit on the force of a focus? I'm looking for where it says that and I'm not finding it quickly...
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Wakshaani well personally I also use a Hard Cap, but I put everyone on equal terms with Magic 6 ( 9 ) unless they buy the Magical version of the Lucky Quality in which case they can have Magic 7 ( 10 ). Oh, if you go the route of a Hard Cap, one hole that you have to plug is rule that any Magic Loss from cyberware can not be raised be simply initiating again. |
Yeah, I use 5(7) for Trolls, 7(10) for Elves, and 6(9) for everyone else, plus the Magical Apptitude Quality to bump it by one, BUT, eseence loss lowers your *max* in WakkaWorld, rather than the current.
For example, if you got yourself 2 Essence worth of Cyberware and had a Magic of 3, your magic would still be 3 ... just that your limit would have dropped from 6 (9) to 4 (6) ... Cyber suddenly becomes a great short-term investment but really, really hurts the long term. Burnout Mages get to be real sad cases, watching their magic spiral down and know that they'll never, ever, be as good as they could have been.
This has a side effect of letting magicians get a fairly good level of cyber at Chargen, rather than teh current double-dip system where they just have to throw away 10 BP for every point of Essence they wanted to use.
IMHO, it's a better system, but I know not everyone will agree.
(The Magic variance for Trolls and Elves is, oddly, more objectionable to most people than the cap in general.)
This real problem is the rate at which the magician is spending his karma rather than at spellcasting.
It's a simple fact that since no time between casting a spell and resisting the drain can you spend karma to initiate and gain drain dice, there will never be a mage stuck in an infinite drain test. (Karma must be spent during downtime or a time where DMs deem appropriate)
As such, a mage with an infinite karma pool would have stats as high as he could write on his character sheet between sessions, and the relationship between initiation grade and his magic is completely determined by how he chooses to raise them.
It's a simple fact that since no time between casting a spell and resisting the drain can you spend karma to initiate and gain drain dice, there will never be a mage stuck in an infinite drain test. (Karma must be spent during downtime or a time where DMs deem appropriate)
As such, a mage with an infinite karma pool would have stats as high as he could write on his character sheet between sessions, and the relationship between initiation grade and his magic is completely determined by how he chooses to raise them.
If you had infinite karma couldn't you just burn a point of edge for a critical success on the drain test every time you cast a spell and then just boost your edge back up again. Seems like with infinite karma you could throw down any 6 (we'll go with a non lucky non human) spells in a game session without worry of drain.
You can't improve attributes, skills, etc. with Karma in the middle of a run. Only during downtime.
With infinite karma, you can just arbitrarily write down a magic rating of 1.1*10^13 and cast a fireball at the ground without worrying about drain. End the game with a bang. The resulting fireball would be slightly larger then the solar system.
Demerzel I agree with what you are saying, but I'm coming at it from the angle that RedRum asked about the Mage's most powerful spells, which to me means he is asking about spells cast at ( Magic ). The bit about "unlimited Karma" that seems to have opened the door to this discussion was meant as nothing more then a carryover from the Cyber vs Magic threads.
<><><><><>
Wakshaani yeah, I started using the Magic Loss lowering the cap instead of current as well once I learned that it was actually intended for you to rebuy burnt Edge using the current value instead of the "true value".
The reason that I personally wouldn't use different Magic Caps for the different races is that I've grown tired of fanasty games presenting Elves as uber magical, plus I don't want to open the door to Elves being able to have the best Mojo as well as the best ability to resist Drain if they belong to a ( Cha + Will ) Tradition.
<><><><><>
Wakshaani yeah, I started using the Magic Loss lowering the cap instead of current as well once I learned that it was actually intended for you to rebuy burnt Edge using the current value instead of the "true value".
The reason that I personally wouldn't use different Magic Caps for the different races is that I've grown tired of fanasty games presenting Elves as uber magical, plus I don't want to open the door to Elves being able to have the best Mojo as well as the best ability to resist Drain if they belong to a ( Cha + Will ) Tradition.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| You can't improve attributes, skills, etc. with Karma in the middle of a run. Only during downtime. |
Thats why i said any 6 spells. Still 6 spells with maximum force and no drain = insanely powerful.
but that's probably due to: infinite karma = insanely powerful.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.