Okay, I've done some thinking, and I have what I plan to use as a houserule regarding cyberlimb damage.
I'll post my thoughts, and we'll see how the thread goes. I've used search, and so far the general advice for a cyberlimb in melee is to use (str/2)P damage.
My point should be clear after this example. We're going to use three identically statted characters, and for this purpose their strength, agility, and unarmed combat skills are all at three. We'll just be buying hits to make this fast and easy.
Samurai Alan is an unmodified human. When he punches someone, he does (3/2)S, so 2S. The defender will be a normal person with a three body and no dodge. Three dice mean no hits can be bought, so the target takes 2S.
Samurai Bob has a cyberarm, and he punches at (3/2)P (via previous houserule) or (3/2)S by RAW. Again, the target can not stage the damage down, and the damage is 2P or 2S.
Samurai Chuck has either plastic bone lacing or bone density three. In this example, he punches the same three body target and does (3/2)+2 damage. The unlucky random passerby takes 4P.
This hurts my brain. Bob has a solid ceramic/plastic/metal fist, and should so significantly more damage than Chuck, who has a flesh and bone fist with plastic augmenting it, or a fist with a denser bone structure.
Here's my first concept for an alternative houserule. If the cyberlimb is synthetic, it does similar damage to plastic bone lacing, plus one. So effectively, the synthetic cyberlimb hits for (str/2)+3P. The obvious cyberlimbs follow the same logic, titanium bone lacing damage plus one. So an obvious cyberlimb would do (str/2)+4P damage.
I welcome discussion about this rule, as I realize a cyberlimb costs less than titanium bone lacing, and has capacity to boot. But I can't ignore the fact that as it stands, the RAW tells you that a metal-laced flesh and bone fist hurts far more than a solid, unyielding mass of metal and plastic.
You might argue the point, and you're welcome to do so. One option could be to charge a character 10% of the bone lacing cost to reinforce the damage the limb can do.
The other, more devious thought was that since Augmentation allows you to have cyberlimbs with increased body/strength/agility than the base book, why wouldn't the body of the limb (its inherent toughness) determine how much it hurts when it hits you? Wouldn't a body two synthetic limb hurt less than an obvious body six cyberlimb?
So in the second houserule alternative, you simply take the base damage as suggested (str/2)P, and add half the body to the code. So a body four cyberlimb with strength four does (4/2)+2 or 4P. This takes into account that as you make a cyberlimb tougher and more resistant to damage, that also means being poked with it hurts more than a cyberlimb that isn't reinforced.
Some are going to decry my suggestions, claiming this overpowers cyberlimbs. A strength six character with titanium bone lacing doing 6P in melee is good damage. In comparision a strength six character with a cyberarm doing 7P seems okay in terms of relative power. I do realize that a troll with something like a body and strength ten cyberarm would be hitting for (10/2)+4 or 9P in my first example, and 10P in my second, so it doesn't seem too outrageous to me overall. A physical adept troll with strength ten and one full magic point in critical strike can still go toe to toe damagewise, doing (10/2)+4 or 9S damage.
Full Version: Cyberlimb melee damage
Basic physics says that a cyberlimb should do more damage than a natural one. Why? Simple: F=MA. That is, Force equals Mass times Acceleration. Let's leave out any enhancements for the moment and say that the cyberlimb in question is essentially a duplicate of the original limb. So, if length and strength are the same, then the Acceleration isn't going to change. However, the weight of the arm should increase. It's now metal bones and synthetic muscles, so it should weigh more, therefor the Mass goes up, and thus Force is increased. More Force equals more damage.
Ok, ok. I can hear you saying it doesn't have to weigh more. Carbon fiber bones, empty space, etc, etc. Alright, then what happens if you *make* changes that make it heavier. Stainless steel bones, osmium knuckles, hardened striking edges. Now the limb should have the equivalent of bone lacing in terms of damage dealing capacity, because you've gone and added more Mass to the arm, increasing Force again.
Now, I do recognize that this brings in a fighting mechanic that should be taken into account. If the fighter only has one limb this way, then he only gets the bonus when striking with that limb. The person's fighting style could certainly be adjusted to this, but an opponent would be able to recognize this and counter it. So, how would you deal with that? A bonus to their block/doge after making a perception test to catch the technique?
Ok, ok. I can hear you saying it doesn't have to weigh more. Carbon fiber bones, empty space, etc, etc. Alright, then what happens if you *make* changes that make it heavier. Stainless steel bones, osmium knuckles, hardened striking edges. Now the limb should have the equivalent of bone lacing in terms of damage dealing capacity, because you've gone and added more Mass to the arm, increasing Force again.
Now, I do recognize that this brings in a fighting mechanic that should be taken into account. If the fighter only has one limb this way, then he only gets the bonus when striking with that limb. The person's fighting style could certainly be adjusted to this, but an opponent would be able to recognize this and counter it. So, how would you deal with that? A bonus to their block/doge after making a perception test to catch the technique?
Personal House Rule: Full cyberlimbs = Titanium Bone Lacing for purposes of Unarmed Combat damage. Partial cyberlimbs = Aluminum. Cyberfeet/hands = Plastic.
Officially, it's a completely ignored feature of limbs despite the absurdity of it. (Somehow, adding metal to your skeleton improves damage, but replacing the entire limb from metal does nothing. /boggle)
Officially, it's a completely ignored feature of limbs despite the absurdity of it. (Somehow, adding metal to your skeleton improves damage, but replacing the entire limb from metal does nothing. /boggle)
After a discussion with a friend of mine about the damage of a cyberlimb I have come up with a House Rule for it.
The following lines (italicized) are added to page 148 of the SR4 corebook.
The following lines (italicized) are added to page 148 of the SR4 corebook.
| QUOTE |
| The Damage Value for most melee attacks is based on the attacker's Strength ÷ 2 (round up), modified for the weapon. A standard unarmed attack inflicts (Strength ÷ 2)S. If a close combat attack is lead with a cyberlimb, that attack deals physical damage. The damage for a standard unarmed attack lead by a cyberlimb inflicts (Strength ÷ 2)P. |
The following gear is added to the Street Gear on pages 336-337 in the SR4 corebook.
Limb Reinforcement: Limb reinforcement is a common method of reinforcing a cyberlimb commensurate with an overall increase in physical strength. By replacing load bearing portions of the joints and structure with high performance polymers and composites, the joint is increased in overall rigidity and strength to withstand the incredible loads it is capable of generating. The result is an increase in movable load as well as an appreciable increase in striking power when used as a weapon. Limb Reinforcement is available in ratings 1-3. Installation of Limb Reinforcement systems beyond rating 1 requires a cybertorso. A cyberlimb with Limb Reinforcement deals (Strength ÷ 2 + Rating)P damage. The limb has an AP modifier of its (Rating) when tested against barriers (not armor).
Limb Reinforcement
- Essence: -
- Capacity: [Rating x 1]
- Availability: (Rating x 5)R
- Cost: Rating x 2,500¥
*** edited (cybertorso requirement) for balance ***
Comments / suggestions?
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway
Good points, all.
I had thought of something similar to noonesshowmonkey, in that you could get titanium reincorcement for your striking surfaces, but the 'how' isn't as important as the 'why'.
I mean, if you really think the human with titanium bone lacing shoudl hit harder than the cyberzombie, that's fine. Hardly realistic, but fine. I'm just glad I'm not the only one wondering how this fell through the cracks.
I had thought of something similar to noonesshowmonkey, in that you could get titanium reincorcement for your striking surfaces, but the 'how' isn't as important as the 'why'.
I mean, if you really think the human with titanium bone lacing shoudl hit harder than the cyberzombie, that's fine. Hardly realistic, but fine. I'm just glad I'm not the only one wondering how this fell through the cracks.
Unless I am mistaken, this issue was not resolved with the latest and greatest out of Augmentation... This is somewhat displeasing.
Though not every cyberlimb is made of high density, extremely rigid and tough components (in fact, if most cyberlimbs are merely replacements for lost limbs, they can be expected to be light weight and fragile), there would definately be those that look to add just that strength to their limbs. A stock limb would likely be relatively fragile, but after some upgrades would be very resiliant. I like the idea and I think that it answers the 'why' with a 'how'. That is, to me, the best kind of answer
.
I guess I can just consider it oversight or difference in opinion / vision for the designers and writers of the SR4 content with that of a few of the players.
I have modified the original write up of the Limb Reinforcement for better balance. Limb Reinforcement beyond Rating 1 requires a cybertorso. Reinforcing the limb past a certain point without anchoring it into a stronger overall skeleton would simply result in damage to the user's body if that extra capability were used. Thus, the cybertorso requirement. This is, obviously, taking a nod from the basic Enhancement rules for cyberlimbs. With this change a non-cyber torso user can still deal physical damage but does not have sweeping benefits without further Augmentation (sarcastic pun).
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway
Though not every cyberlimb is made of high density, extremely rigid and tough components (in fact, if most cyberlimbs are merely replacements for lost limbs, they can be expected to be light weight and fragile), there would definately be those that look to add just that strength to their limbs. A stock limb would likely be relatively fragile, but after some upgrades would be very resiliant. I like the idea and I think that it answers the 'why' with a 'how'. That is, to me, the best kind of answer
.I guess I can just consider it oversight or difference in opinion / vision for the designers and writers of the SR4 content with that of a few of the players.
I have modified the original write up of the Limb Reinforcement for better balance. Limb Reinforcement beyond Rating 1 requires a cybertorso. Reinforcing the limb past a certain point without anchoring it into a stronger overall skeleton would simply result in damage to the user's body if that extra capability were used. Thus, the cybertorso requirement. This is, obviously, taking a nod from the basic Enhancement rules for cyberlimbs. With this change a non-cyber torso user can still deal physical damage but does not have sweeping benefits without further Augmentation (sarcastic pun).
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway
| QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey) |
| I have modified the original write up of the Limb Reinforcement for better balance. Limb Reinforcement beyond Rating 1 requires a cybertorso. Reinforcing the limb past a certain point without anchoring it into a stronger overall skeleton would simply result in damage to the user's body if that extra capability were used. Thus, the cybertorso requirement. This is, obviously, taking a nod from the basic Enhancement rules for cyberlimbs. With this change a non-cyber torso user can still deal physical damage but does not have sweeping benefits without further Augmentation (sarcastic pun). |
Hmmm...I don't think it really applies, tho. If we were talking about increasing the strength of the limb beyond the character's natural Body/Strength, then that makes sense, but that's the other end of the argument. If I pick up a 1kg set of brass knuckles in my natural meat limb, it increases the amount of damage I can do by punching someone with it, right? Does picking that weight up have anything to do with how likely I am to dislocate my arm and hitting someone? No, not really. So, if I build those same knuckles into my cyberarm, why would I suddenly need a cybertorso to support them? Bone lacing doesn't make the connections between the bones stronger, just the bones themselves. Do they need a cybertorso? No, since it's an increase in mass, not in strength.
I agree with the Limb Reinforcement idea from the standpoint of trying to put on a limb that is stronger than the body it's attached to, and then use it for any activity that requires more than the limb itself. (e.g. lifting a car vs. crushing something in your hand.) So, the guy with a 4 Bod and 4 Str could get a cyberarm with Str 7, but if he tried to use the strength higher than 4 (perhaps 6), then he will probably dislocate the shoulder/break a leg/something to that effect.
Perhaps it's an issue with too many situational variables to cover all the bases, but I think there is a reasonable middle ground to work with.
| QUOTE (CyberKender @ Jul 31 2007, 03:42 PM) |
| If I pick up a 1kg set of brass knuckles in my natural meat limb, it increases the amount of damage I can do by punching someone with it, right? Does picking that weight up have anything to do with how likely I am to dislocate my arm and hitting someone? No, not really. So, if I build those same knuckles into my cyberarm, why would I suddenly need a cybertorso to support them? Bone lacing doesn't make the connections between the bones stronger, just the bones themselves. Do they need a cybertorso? No, since it's an increase in mass, not in strength. |
The reasoning behind Structural Reinforcement requiring a cyber-torso past rating 1 is that to truly reinforce the limb past a certain point requires greater anchoring rather than simply strengthening the materials used in the arm. I believe this was even the point of your own banter - that past a certain point local arm strength is meaningless without full body strength.
Further, this keeps in line with the current Cyber Limb rules for higher rated ware. It even lands neumerically within the precedents. Rating 3 is the max for cyberlimb stats before needing a torso on a human. Human max is a 9. The "period" of the limb stat is 3, then in 3 periods. 1-3 basic human, 4-6 max human and 7-9 supra human. So do 9/3 to get 3 ratings for structural reinforcement. Rating 1 - stronger than human, Rating 2 - super strong, Rating 3 - maximum strength for a bipedal animal. In both case anything past the baseline period requires a torso. Logic!
Lastly, hitting someone with brass knuckles hurts extra for several reasons. The extra mass on the hit is only one of them. One of the major damage causing effects is from the metal hitting an organic target. When you hit someone or something, to transfer force between you and your target, power must travel through your joints and limbs and enter your target. Brass knuckles, unlike human bits, don't flex when they smash into flesh or bone. A great deal of martial arts is learning proper body alignment to have your bones structured in such a fashion that there is minimum flex at the point of impact.
This is one of the major reasons why knees and elbows are so devestating (past the fact that they engage core muscles more readily than an extremity strike, but thats a whole 'nother can of worms). A knee or elbow cuts two joints off of the list of flexing joints between point of impact (his face) and point of origin (the ground). A punch flexes at wrist (extremity joint, very weak) -> elbow -> shoulder -> hip -> knee -> ankle. An elbow strike locks the elbow and strikes with the forearm and elbow leaving only shoulder (large body joint, very strong) -> hip -> knee -> ankle. So in the case of an elbow, the initial stressed joint is much larger, much stronger and certainly more massive. Finally, the initial joints recruited in a knee or elbow strike are all large body joints capable of handling much greater stress than extremity joints. The result is that a good elbow strike will open someone's face up like a can opener. It is gross.
Anyways, back to cyberlimbs. In the case of Limb Reinforcement, the strengthening of the load bearing structures (joints and 'bones') in the limb provide rigidity under load. Load in the case of combat would be smashing someone's face in. Less an issue of mass (unless you want to add several kilos or swing a hammer) and more one of lowered waste in energy transfer - ie less flex.
Limb Reinforcement past rating 1 would be a moot point, however, since the rest of the body would be where power would drain out of a strike or any task under load. This, again, is why systems past rating 1 would require a cyber torso - solid anchoring points to further reinforce and reduce flex and actually confer the benefits of strength / stability.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemmingway
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