Alright, I have a player that wants to have two or three commlinks as a layered form of security.
One would basically function in open mode like any normal schumck's, and transmit SIN data for easy bank account access for walking into a coffee shop, and isn't actually connected to anything on the player's person.
The second would be well secured & constantly running in hidden mode.
The third would have the antenna ripped out so it can't connect to the Matrix, and maintains all of his illegal cyberware and the like over his skinlink.
The skinlink maintaining his illegal cyberware can't receive data, except through a keypad, only transmit data to the image link.
The question is this, can he maintain an image link between the second and third commlinks, assuming the two don't directly interact? Would there be any problems we should expect from this arrangement?
Full Version: Paranoid Shadowrunner Coordination
| QUOTE (virgileso) |
| Alright, I have a player that wants to have two or three commlinks as a layered form of security. One would basically function in open mode like any normal schumck's, and transmit SIN data for easy bank account access for walking into a coffee shop, and isn't actually connected to anything on the player's person. The second would be well secured & constantly running in hidden mode. The third would have the antenna ripped out so it can't connect to the Matrix, and maintains all of his illegal cyberware and the like over his skinlink. The skinlink maintaining his illegal cyberware can't receive data, except through a keypad, only transmit data to the image link. The question is this, can he maintain an image link between the second and third commlinks, assuming the two don't directly interact? Would there be any problems we should expect from this arrangement? |
...
That doesn't make sense.
The commlink without wireless capabilities CAN receive data, otherwise it'd be useless - it receives data from cyberware.
So you would then have that non-wireless commlink communicating to the hidden commlink via skinlink, or a direct fiber optic cable.
The only way to get to the non-wireless commlink would be to first hack your way through the hidden commlink, and then node jump to the non-wireless one.
Well personally I think I'd use the following setup instead.
Commlink A - Joe Average commlink, used as a public face, and in the very least connected to some form of image link so he can actually use the easy banking access and answer any questions that stores/pigs might want to ask him over AR.
Commlink B - His "gear" commlink, runs in Hidden Mode and mostly uses skinlink to connect to his various gear, can be connected to his cyberware PAN as needed, but should be connected to an image link that is seperate from Commlink A.
Beta-grade Datajack - Used to connect all of his cyberware through internal hardwiring instead of a commlink, and loaded with as much IC as it's ( Rating 5 ) can handle, his cyberware is programed by default not to talk to the outside world at all without using the datajack as a chokepoint.
Because unless I'm missing something I'm not sure that you would really want to use one-way communications even to your image links because then the image link has no way of letting the commlink know what data it has recieved as opposed to something that might ahve been lost.
Commlink A - Joe Average commlink, used as a public face, and in the very least connected to some form of image link so he can actually use the easy banking access and answer any questions that stores/pigs might want to ask him over AR.
Commlink B - His "gear" commlink, runs in Hidden Mode and mostly uses skinlink to connect to his various gear, can be connected to his cyberware PAN as needed, but should be connected to an image link that is seperate from Commlink A.
Beta-grade Datajack - Used to connect all of his cyberware through internal hardwiring instead of a commlink, and loaded with as much IC as it's ( Rating 5 ) can handle, his cyberware is programed by default not to talk to the outside world at all without using the datajack as a chokepoint.
Because unless I'm missing something I'm not sure that you would really want to use one-way communications even to your image links because then the image link has no way of letting the commlink know what data it has recieved as opposed to something that might ahve been lost.
Keep in mind that I'm still trying to wrap my mind around all the Matrix rules. Everything else seems to have gotten simpler, but these rules are just as convoluted as they used to be. Oy!
That said, correct me if wrong, but the thing to do is as follows.
Step 1: Cheap commlink broadcasting whatever fake SIN and licenses you want or need it to, switching modes as appropriate to the situation and downloading new information from your other, more secure commlinks when necessary. This is your "I'm a legal citizen, please don't harass me on the streets" item that you can easily shut off completely when you need to hide your profile. It's not connected to your PAN at all; it's little more than a dummy SIN broadcaster and has no valid accounts in your PAN (effectively being it's own, unique PAN). They come with display systems so any information you need to see is easily accessible.
Step 2: Hardcore commlink with agents protecting it. Hidden mode, massive Firewall, best Analyze you can afford, the works. Wireless functionality turned off but not removed, operating only via skinlink. This has all your vital software and data stored on it. It also maintains your PAN, all of which have had their wireless functionality and RFID tags removed, but each having a skinlink where necessary so that you can still control them via this commlink.
Step 3: That's it. You don't need another commlink. If your hardcore one can be comprised with your entire network running completely through skinlinks and despite all the software protection you have on it, then any other one you have is just as vulnerable.
You can turn the wireless connectivity of your hardcore commlink on or off whenever you need to (such as updating El Cheapo with a new SIN or license), but having it turned off under all other situations. If the agent in your hardcore one detects an intruder (who can pretty much only hack into it if they slap some other kind of commlink with a skinlink onto your body or something), it can delay them long enough for you to power the commlink down. In which case, you're dealing with a drek-hot hacker and better hope you have one on your side, too, else you'll be "running in the blind" as it were.
That said, correct me if wrong, but the thing to do is as follows.
Step 1: Cheap commlink broadcasting whatever fake SIN and licenses you want or need it to, switching modes as appropriate to the situation and downloading new information from your other, more secure commlinks when necessary. This is your "I'm a legal citizen, please don't harass me on the streets" item that you can easily shut off completely when you need to hide your profile. It's not connected to your PAN at all; it's little more than a dummy SIN broadcaster and has no valid accounts in your PAN (effectively being it's own, unique PAN). They come with display systems so any information you need to see is easily accessible.
Step 2: Hardcore commlink with agents protecting it. Hidden mode, massive Firewall, best Analyze you can afford, the works. Wireless functionality turned off but not removed, operating only via skinlink. This has all your vital software and data stored on it. It also maintains your PAN, all of which have had their wireless functionality and RFID tags removed, but each having a skinlink where necessary so that you can still control them via this commlink.
Step 3: That's it. You don't need another commlink. If your hardcore one can be comprised with your entire network running completely through skinlinks and despite all the software protection you have on it, then any other one you have is just as vulnerable.
You can turn the wireless connectivity of your hardcore commlink on or off whenever you need to (such as updating El Cheapo with a new SIN or license), but having it turned off under all other situations. If the agent in your hardcore one detects an intruder (who can pretty much only hack into it if they slap some other kind of commlink with a skinlink onto your body or something), it can delay them long enough for you to power the commlink down. In which case, you're dealing with a drek-hot hacker and better hope you have one on your side, too, else you'll be "running in the blind" as it were.
Just tossing this out here but......what if you did have that third comlink though, and it was full up with as many agents and or IC programs as it could hold......couldn't you transfer them from comlink 3 into comlink 2 incase comlink 2's defenses were being over ran?
sort of like carrying a spare magizine of ammo, except that you have an extra comlink full of agents and or IC.....hell why not carry a dozen comlinks full of your best agents and or IC programs to have a virtual army of little matrix helpers to defend your PAN and or ruin someone elses day?
sort of like carrying a spare magizine of ammo, except that you have an extra comlink full of agents and or IC.....hell why not carry a dozen comlinks full of your best agents and or IC programs to have a virtual army of little matrix helpers to defend your PAN and or ruin someone elses day?
If someone could get around all those defenses without using any kind of wireless connection, what's to stop them from doing the same with another one you have? Or even "jumping over" as you're copying files, since you're obviously opening a connection between the two as its being hacked.
Like I said before, if the second commlink I described above is getting hacked, you're screwed anyway. Your only solution is to completely shut everything down and go Old School until another solution presents itself (like having your own hacker in the group).
Like I said before, if the second commlink I described above is getting hacked, you're screwed anyway. Your only solution is to completely shut everything down and go Old School until another solution presents itself (like having your own hacker in the group).
No arguement there...if you are not a Hacker and or do not have a hacker worth thier drek on your side, best to turn the gadgets off and run old school for a bit.
but if you were a hacker, would thier be a down side to having pockets full of comlinks, each comlink being full of agents and what not?
The reason I ask is because I know about jack and shit about the maytrix despite rereading that chapter a few times, and I am sincerely curious if this multiple comlinks full of agents idea is any good.
I sort of think of each of thoose comlinks as truck loads full of S.C.U.D. vending machines, when you need help in the matrix, just keep calling on disposable assassions until the job is done.
but if you were a hacker, would thier be a down side to having pockets full of comlinks, each comlink being full of agents and what not?
The reason I ask is because I know about jack and shit about the maytrix despite rereading that chapter a few times, and I am sincerely curious if this multiple comlinks full of agents idea is any good.
I sort of think of each of thoose comlinks as truck loads full of S.C.U.D. vending machines, when you need help in the matrix, just keep calling on disposable assassions until the job is done.
I haven't absorbed the Matrix rules nearly enough to go there. I'm sure someone like the 'monkey or Tarantula will be able to help you out. 
I know the army of agents thing has been discussed on other threads.
On the attack it isn't such a good idea as, unless your purpose is to take them offline for a bit, the target will surely detect multiple incursions and just shut down. Especially if there is a human there who can literally just shut it down.
Defensivly it's a different story. Now RAW never spells out how servers we know if an agent is independently in a node it uses that nodes ratings. Does that ever reduce reaction like it would if you were running that same agent? Never spelled out, so I guess they're "free". You could rule that piling all those agents in drops the rating however, at which point advantage goes to the live persona.
There is some other stuff. Honestly when you get down to it I just don't want to always have to swarm a PC with ICE should the get into a guarded node. Having them break into something and then saying "OK now make 50 stealth checks" isn't how I want to run things even on the darkest of systems. And therefore it shouldn't be beneficial for a PC to do so either.
The correct answer may be to hope they fix it in unwired and until then ask players not to do it.
On the attack it isn't such a good idea as, unless your purpose is to take them offline for a bit, the target will surely detect multiple incursions and just shut down. Especially if there is a human there who can literally just shut it down.
Defensivly it's a different story. Now RAW never spells out how servers we know if an agent is independently in a node it uses that nodes ratings. Does that ever reduce reaction like it would if you were running that same agent? Never spelled out, so I guess they're "free". You could rule that piling all those agents in drops the rating however, at which point advantage goes to the live persona.
There is some other stuff. Honestly when you get down to it I just don't want to always have to swarm a PC with ICE should the get into a guarded node. Having them break into something and then saying "OK now make 50 stealth checks" isn't how I want to run things even on the darkest of systems. And therefore it shouldn't be beneficial for a PC to do so either.
The correct answer may be to hope they fix it in unwired and until then ask players not to do it.
So is there an arrangement to have an image link (one-way) to their illegal cyberware through a wireless commlink (using skinlink or something)? Or is it even important to have an image link to it, or can you just let your cyberware be out-of-sight out-of-mind, rolling out a physical mini-screen (wireless, of course) if you have to get a status report.
The biggest issue I see, is why do you need a PAN on wireless? If its cyberware, it connects via DNI. If it isn't, (what isn't anyway? Smartlinks?) You can connect via fiber, or skinlink. Eitherway, its virtually hackerproof. Get a datajack, and just plug your gun into that. Hackerproof (provided you turn off all your cybers wireless and rely on DNI, possibly with a provision that should DNI fail, wireless turns back on.)
I don't think one-way links have ever been touched upon in RAW, and unless you have fully self contained cyberware then you have to allow some sort of outside connection so you can't ever be 100% secure. That why I suggest using a beta-grade datajack as a nasty chokepoint for your cyberware, if built correctly it's unlikely (But not impossible.) that a Decker will be able to get through it undetected.
This thread got me thinking about Crazy Eddie from that old tv show "First Wave."
Are you going to throw any conspiracies into this game?
tweak
Are you going to throw any conspiracies into this game?
tweak
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Jul 27 2007, 10:56 PM) |
| I don't think one-way links have ever been touched upon in RAW, and unless you have fully self contained cyberware then you have to allow some sort of outside connection so you can't ever be 100% secure. That why I suggest using a beta-grade datajack as a nasty chokepoint for your cyberware, if built correctly it's unlikely (But not impossible.) that a Decker will be able to get through it undetected. |
Why beta-grade? I sense I failed a Spot check on a rule somewhere.
Because Beta-grade Datajacks are ( Rating 5 ) and thus can be turned into a nastier chokepoint, while being protrayed as relatively easy to get ahold of in the fluff.
Delta-grade is ( Rating 6 ), but I figure that the extra hassle of getting it installed usually isn't worth the effort.
Delta-grade is ( Rating 6 ), but I figure that the extra hassle of getting it installed usually isn't worth the effort.
| QUOTE (Buster @ Jul 28 2007, 03:00 PM) |
| Why beta-grade? I sense I failed a Spot check on a rule somewhere. |
Higher Device Rating.
edit: Damn! That's one of the very few questions about electronics to which I actually knew the answer!
Yeah, but why not for much cheaper (and at chargen!) buy a rating 5 commlink, and plug it in to your wireless disabled standard datajack?
Because it's easier for a commlink to be lost or damaged, wires trailing from a datajack to a commlink is more noticable, and there are times when you might want to be able to reach out and connect with something through your Datajack so it's more flexable as well.
Besides, in the event of being captured, it's harder for the pigs to keep me from wiping anything illegal from my datajack then it is my commlink, especially if my datajack is wireless disabled.
*Edit*
Also my datajack is more fire and forget since I can have it loaded to the gills with IC at all times and won't have to worry about changing my program loads depending on the situation.
Besides, in the event of being captured, it's harder for the pigs to keep me from wiping anything illegal from my datajack then it is my commlink, especially if my datajack is wireless disabled.
*Edit*
Also my datajack is more fire and forget since I can have it loaded to the gills with IC at all times and won't have to worry about changing my program loads depending on the situation.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Because it's easier for a commlink to be lost or damaged, wires trailing from a datajack to a commlink is more noticable, and there are times when you might want to be able to reach out and connect with something through your Datajack so it's more flexable as well. |
The datajack doesn't have to be on you head. You can run the fiber down to under your arm or wherever you want it.
Commlinks can be installed for only +0.1 Essence or +1 Capacity more than a Datajack, and that connection is just as eligible for alpha-, beta- and delta-grade upgrades as a Datajack is. They come with more toys, all of which are integral to your body now, and can be upgraded with even more toys with no additional Essence or Capacity loss.
Unless you're really pushing the envelope with your Essence score and nuyen is really hard to come by, Commlinks are superior to Datajacks in just about every conceivable fashion.
Oh, and Skinlinks rock.
Unless you're really pushing the envelope with your Essence score and nuyen is really hard to come by, Commlinks are superior to Datajacks in just about every conceivable fashion.
Oh, and Skinlinks rock.
True, but when I actually get to play as opposed to being the GM I almost always play a Mage, so I have to be miserly with my Essense, I mean, there are just so many toys to get and I have a hard time limiting myself to one or maybe two points of burnt Magic. 
In that case, a few 50-nuyen Skinlinks and a Commlink works rather nicely. 0 Essence loss, damn near the same level security.
Sure, but security is only part of the deal, a datajack also gives me more flexiblity, plus I don't have to worry about losing my security if my commlink is lost or damaged for whatever reason.
Besides, having virtually unlimited headware memory is nothing to sneeze at either, especially when I can store and use know-softs, linga-softs, ect even when running completely wireless silent.
Besides, having virtually unlimited headware memory is nothing to sneeze at either, especially when I can store and use know-softs, linga-softs, ect even when running completely wireless silent.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| ... I can have it loaded to the gills with IC ... |
Please define this.
<><><><><><><><><><>
Beta-grade Datajack Chokepoint -Skinlink Adapted
( Responce 5 ) - ( System 5 ) - ( Firewall 6 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
( IC 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
( IC 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
( IC 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
( IC 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
<Storage> ( Attack 5 ) - ( Black Hammer 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 ) - (Encrypt 5 ) <Storage>
<><><><><><><><><><>
User and Security Access has been disabled, so a Decker has to hack Admin access just to get in.
Unless in active use the datajack is programed to cycle wireless every 15 minutes, this will force a Decker to use the hacking-on-the-fly rules. (Might be overkill since a datajack only has ( Signal 0 ), so a Decker would already be forced to get within 3 meters of me or have hacked into a system that my jack is connected to.)
Due to system load, the Node is running at ( Responce 4 ) until some of the IC are crashed.
The Node is programmed to make constaint Analyze Tests. (What this actually means depends on your DM, for some it means that the Node makes a test every IP and for others it means it gets to make one test per intruder.)
The IC are all subscribed to each other and make constaint Analyze Tests using the teamwork rules. If an intruder is detected an alert is sounded as they load up either Attack or Black Hammer depending on the nature of the intruder. (And unless I'm in the middle of something and really fragging need my datajack I'll sever the connection and smile as I imagine the dumpshock I just gave the Decker.)
If I wish to send an encrypted outgoing datastream then I either have to drop one of the IC or degrade the system to ( Responce 3 ).
Now I know that it isn't impossible for a Decker to be able to hack his way past this chokepoint by any means, but generally speaking it should be secure enough to keep a Decker away from my cyberware considering that in most cases she'd also have to have hacked my commlink as well before she could even get a chance at my datajack.
*Edit*
If your DM allows you to upgrade your Datajack to ( Responce 6 ) either by replacing the chip or by getting a Delta-grade jack, then add three more IC if you don't want to be encrypted all of the time in which case only add two. Or you can keep the exact same setting, and run the system at ( Responce 5 ) instead of ( Reponce 4 ), I haven't put much thought into seeing which would be the better way to go.
*Edit 2.0*
On second thought, disable User Access and make the default access Security Level, having Admin as the only access level has struck me as being slightly scary after alittle more thought.
Beta-grade Datajack Chokepoint -Skinlink Adapted
( Responce 5 ) - ( System 5 ) - ( Firewall 6 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
( IC 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
( IC 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
( IC 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
( IC 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 )
<Storage> ( Attack 5 ) - ( Black Hammer 5 ) - ( Analyze 5 ) - (Encrypt 5 ) <Storage>
<><><><><><><><><><>
User and Security Access has been disabled, so a Decker has to hack Admin access just to get in.
Unless in active use the datajack is programed to cycle wireless every 15 minutes, this will force a Decker to use the hacking-on-the-fly rules. (Might be overkill since a datajack only has ( Signal 0 ), so a Decker would already be forced to get within 3 meters of me or have hacked into a system that my jack is connected to.)
Due to system load, the Node is running at ( Responce 4 ) until some of the IC are crashed.
The Node is programmed to make constaint Analyze Tests. (What this actually means depends on your DM, for some it means that the Node makes a test every IP and for others it means it gets to make one test per intruder.)
The IC are all subscribed to each other and make constaint Analyze Tests using the teamwork rules. If an intruder is detected an alert is sounded as they load up either Attack or Black Hammer depending on the nature of the intruder. (And unless I'm in the middle of something and really fragging need my datajack I'll sever the connection and smile as I imagine the dumpshock I just gave the Decker.)
If I wish to send an encrypted outgoing datastream then I either have to drop one of the IC or degrade the system to ( Responce 3 ).
Now I know that it isn't impossible for a Decker to be able to hack his way past this chokepoint by any means, but generally speaking it should be secure enough to keep a Decker away from my cyberware considering that in most cases she'd also have to have hacked my commlink as well before she could even get a chance at my datajack.
*Edit*
If your DM allows you to upgrade your Datajack to ( Responce 6 ) either by replacing the chip or by getting a Delta-grade jack, then add three more IC if you don't want to be encrypted all of the time in which case only add two. Or you can keep the exact same setting, and run the system at ( Responce 5 ) instead of ( Reponce 4 ), I haven't put much thought into seeing which would be the better way to go.
*Edit 2.0*
On second thought, disable User Access and make the default access Security Level, having Admin as the only access level has struck me as being slightly scary after alittle more thought.
Having just Admin level security is ok. No one is going to be using your commlink except you, so you might as well get the (bizarre) security bonus for having admin level access.
If you had a secretary who needed to check your schedule and screen your calls, you'd give her User access. If you had a hacker "bodyguard" who needed to do security sweeps and safety checks, you'd give him Security level access.
If you had a secretary who needed to check your schedule and screen your calls, you'd give her User access. If you had a hacker "bodyguard" who needed to do security sweeps and safety checks, you'd give him Security level access.
How does the IC (Agent) go about 'loading' another program into itself upon detecting an intruder? I was under the impression that any Programs usable by a specific Agent (or IC) had to be loaded beforehand (and therefore active). Can an Agent really just load up whatever it wants whenever it feels the need?
Although RAW doesn't actually say one way or the other, I figure that they probably should be able to since the following is true.
| QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 227) |
| Agents are semi-autonomous programs capable of using other programs. Regular Matrix users employ agents as assistants or search-bots, while hackers also use them as hacking aides, decoys, watchdogs, or even weapons platforms. Agents exist independently of the user in the Matrix, and are the equivalent of Matrix drones. Th ey are capable of piloting themselves to a degree and can comprehend complex orders |
Remember that the IC in question are using ( Pilot 4 ) which means they have a slightly limited version of ( Logic 4 ).
Seems to me that I have read somewhere in SR4 that Agents are indeed limited to using only the programs pre-loaded into them. I just can't find it now.
If that isn't the case, and Agents (or IC) can indeed just swap out programs at will, then this makes them a lot more powerful than I've seen them portrayed both here and in canon (and pretty much makes a hacker superfluous).
If that isn't the case, and Agents (or IC) can indeed just swap out programs at will, then this makes them a lot more powerful than I've seen them portrayed both here and in canon (and pretty much makes a hacker superfluous).
Well I disagree that they are a replacement to Deckers because they are still limited in their decision making abilities, but I see no reason why part of their "complex commands" couldn't be something along the lines of, "Change Program X for Program Y if Z happens." And a ( Rating 4 ) Agent is smarter then most metahumans are, even if the choices they make don't always reflect that due to their limited programing.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Seems to me that I have read somewhere in SR4 that Agents are indeed limited to using only the programs pre-loaded into them. I just can't find it now. If that isn't the case, and Agents (or IC) can indeed just swap out programs at will, then this makes them a lot more powerful than I've seen them portrayed both here and in canon (and pretty much makes a hacker superfluous). |
You're not crazy, I saw it too. I think it's in the FAQ.
| QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 228) |
| Agents can be loaded up with copies of your programs so that the agent may employ them on its own. If an agent is acting independently, any programs it’s carrying must be active, and so may aff ect its Response (see p. 212). Any program run by an agent is limited by the Pilot rating. |
I think that may be what you are remembering.
And although I tend to be rather demissive of the FAQ in general I went and read what it might have to say on the issue.
| QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ) |
Do all the programs loaded into an agent affect the Response of your commlink if the commlink is running the agent? Only if the agent is using those programs at the same time as the hacker. Can agents load and unload new programs by themselves? Yes, if their orders call for it. The programs must be available for them online. Can agents load agents and thus spawn overwhelming hordes of agents? No, agents can only load standard programs (as listed under Common Use Programs and Hacking Programs). They cannot load specialized programs such as other agents or IC. (The GM may allow them to carry inactive agent programs, if he chooses.) Does an agent loaded into a node and running independently count as a program running on that node for purposes of Response reduction? Yes. Do all the programs loaded into an agent affect the Response of your commlink if the commlink is running the agent? Only if the agent is using those programs. |
However, keep in mind that I consider several of the FAQ's calls as being rather bad.
*EDit*
You know, if I were to abide by the FAQ, then in my example, all of my IC could have both Attack and Black Hammer preloaded onto them, and all the IC would have to do is quit using Analyze and start using either Attack or Black Hammer without taking time to actually change their load-out.
What exactly does stop a hacker or anyone else from simply copying their agents or IC programs so that they can, in fact, have an army of them for one low cost?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| What exactly does stop a hacker or anyone else from simply copying their agents or IC programs so that they can, in fact, have an army of them for one low cost? |
If you have the source code (i.e. programmed it yourself), you can go copy-crazy.
Time? I mean it's generally accepted that breaking copy protection means that you've made one copy, not that you can make unlimited copies.
However, it should be possible to create a program without such limits in which case the way I view Agents as working means an army really isn't all that useful because you'll simply end up crashing whatever system you try to load them on.
In the other view of Agents, the only real limit would be the cost in buying all of the commlinks you need to host them on, well plus they still wouldn't really be all that effective.
However, it should be possible to create a program without such limits in which case the way I view Agents as working means an army really isn't all that useful because you'll simply end up crashing whatever system you try to load them on.
In the other view of Agents, the only real limit would be the cost in buying all of the commlinks you need to host them on, well plus they still wouldn't really be all that effective.
Where is this stated in SR4? You can apparently make copies of all your other programs with impunity as demonstrated by loading copies onto Agents and IC, with no mention that I saw after a quick look saying those programs become inaccessible by the hacker.
And I didn't say anything about loading them onto a single system. You could load one, send it to perform a task somewhere. Load another, send it somewhere else. Load yet another and send it to yet another place. etc.
And I didn't say anything about loading them onto a single system. You could load one, send it to perform a task somewhere. Load another, send it somewhere else. Load yet another and send it to yet another place. etc.
| QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 228) |
| Most legally-purchased programs are sold with built-in copy protection, so that the program cannot easily be duplicated without an access code. Hackers have invented many ways of circumventing these methods, however, to the point where piracy is the rule rather than the exception. If a character wishes to duplicate a program that is copy-protected, he needs to break the protection. Th is requires an Extended Soft ware + Logic Test with a threshold between 10 and 20 (gamemaster’s discretion) and an interval of 1 hour. |
As far as I can tell this is the only mention in the entire book, so take it as you will. Personally I see it as meaning that if you do things the legal way you do indeed need to buy multiple copies of the same program to load into your Agents.
*Edit*
Sorry, I misunderstood your point.
Ok, then as long as you have multiple Agents there really isn't anything stopping you from doing just that, although I don't see how that is really overpowered either considering that the Agent has to make a ( Pilot + Responce ) Test as a "common sense test" when it needs to make a complex decision.
I don't know what I was remembering ...
But this is interesting ...
But this is interesting ...
| QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ) |
Do all the programs loaded into an agent affect the Response of your commlink if the commlink is running the agent? Only if the agent is using those programs at the same time as the hacker. |
So, if the hacker/commlink user is not actually utilizing any programs at the time, there is no lag on Response whatsoever, regardless of any Agent activity?
| QUOTE |
| Can agents load and unload new programs by themselves? Yes, if their orders call for it. The programs must be available for them online. |
Well, this is pretty clear. Hmmm ...
| QUOTE |
| Can agents load agents and thus spawn overwhelming hordes of agents? No, agents can only load standard programs (as listed under Common Use Programs and Hacking Programs). They cannot load specialized programs such as other agents or IC. (The GM may allow them to carry inactive agent programs, if he chooses.) |
Doesn't the second (bracketed) part of this response contradict the first?
| QUOTE |
| Do all the programs loaded into an agent affect the Response of your commlink if the commlink is running the agent? Only if the agent is using those programs. |
So, if I have an Agent on my rating 3 Commlink with 5 programs, but it is only actually utilizing Analyze at the moment, there is no Response lag?
Now I am more confused than ever!
Now you know why I really don't like the FAQ, it leaves me with more questions then it answers.
Although here is my personal take on unraveling the FAQ's gibberish...
| QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ) |
| Do all the programs loaded into an agent affect the Response of your commlink if the commlink is running the agent? Only if the agent is using those programs at the same time as the hacker. |
I think they are trying to say that only the programs that are actually being used by either Decker or Agent counts against Responce reguardless of what is primed into memory.
| QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ) |
| Can agents load and unload new programs by themselves? Yes, if their orders call for it. The programs must be available for them online. |
Fairly straight forward, although it does beg the question, what counts as "online"? Do the programs have to be hosted on the same Node as the IC are as in my examples or can I stash them somewhere safe?
| QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ) |
| Can agents load agents and thus spawn overwhelming hordes of agents? No, agents can only load standard programs (as listed under Common Use Programs and Hacking Programs). They cannot load specialized programs such as other agents or IC. (The GM may allow them to carry inactive agent programs, if he chooses.) |
Like you said the answer seems to directly contradict itself, but I think it might make sense if you allow an Agent to carry a program of another Agent but it isn't allowed to activate it, it can just ferry it from one Node to the next.
And after thinking about it I can see where that might possibly come in handy from time to time, but it isn't something that is going to see common usage by any means.
| QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ) |
| Does an agent loaded into a node and running independently count as a program running on that node for purposes of Response reduction? Yes. |
Hmm, the more I read this one, I'm starting to think that maybe it might be supporting my view on Agents not being able to use the resources of Node A while present in Node B, but I fully admit that it feels like quite a stretch since we are only given a one word answer.
| QUOTE (Shadowrun FAQ) |
| Do all the programs loaded into an agent affect the Response of your commlink if the commlink is running the agent? Only if the agent is using those programs. |
If my interuptation of the first FAQ answer is correct then this is at best just a confirmation and at worst simply wasted bandwidth.
*Edit*
Although if you had a ( Rating 3 ) commlink your Agent could only have three different programs in its payload to start with as it too would be limited to ( Rating 3 ).
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Although if you had a ( Rating 3 ) commlink your Agent could only have three different programs in its payload to start with as it too would be limited to ( Rating 3 ). |
Alright ... let's take a Rating 6 (all ratings are 6 in this example) Commlink with two Agents (IC) active. Each Agent is loaded with Analyze, Stealth, Attack, Armor, and Trace, but are only using the Analyze programs for now.
According to the FAQ, the active programs, and hence the load for Response purposes should be 1 for each Agent plus 1 for each Analyze, totaling only 4, which would mean no lag. Is this interpretation of the FAQ's ruling correct, or am I going wrong somewhere?
That is the same way I read the FAQ's ruling yes.
Although on a completely unrelated note, I think I'd rule that Stealth is a program that has to be active before it's needed, just like Armor, but that's neither here or now.
Although on a completely unrelated note, I think I'd rule that Stealth is a program that has to be active before it's needed, just like Armor, but that's neither here or now.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Although on a completely unrelated note, I think I'd rule that Stealth is a program that has to be active before it's needed, just like Armor, but that's neither here or now. |
I would agree. I just threw in the first 5 programs that came to mind.
As to the FAQ ruling though, it seems FUBAR to me, but them I've already proven I know squat about the Matrix.
On another note though, the FAQ is quite specific about Agents (IC) not being able to call up or activate other IC (a question I had asked earlier). This might have a profound effect on many Systems (including those designed by knasser).
Huh? Unless I missed something the FAQ just said that an Agent couldn't spawn another Agent directly, not that it couldn't be subscribed and work with a second Agent or even use the Command Program to order the system to load one.
As for the FAQ's ruling, well it does kindof make a twisted type of sense to me the more I think about it, but I shudder at the very thought of having to recalulate a node's responce rating with every action an Agent(s) take so it still goes in my list of "bad FAQ calls".
As for the FAQ's ruling, well it does kindof make a twisted type of sense to me the more I think about it, but I shudder at the very thought of having to recalulate a node's responce rating with every action an Agent(s) take so it still goes in my list of "bad FAQ calls".
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Huh? Unless I missed something the FAQ just said that an Agent couldn't spawn another Agent directly, not that it couldn't be subscribed and work with a second Agent or even use the Command Program to order the system to load one. |
My mistake. Sorry.
Would the Agent (IC) then actually require the Command program to activate another otherwise idle Agent (IC)? What if the activation of said 'other Agent' was part of the original Agent's parameters?
I know these might be basic questions to some of you guys, but I always think it's better to ask if I'm not sure about something.
To be quite honest I'm not sure what is actually "correct", and really I'm not even sure if the devs could give you an answer that fit perfectly with "Matrix Theory" (In part because I'm becoming more and more convinced that there simply is no unified principles behind the Matrix 2.0.), but I think this is how I'd handle it.
---
Disclaimer - I make NO claim that the following even remotely resembles canon.
IC needs to be able to trigger a system alert at a moment's notice, so although it's invisible at the level that RAW looks at, IC automatically subscribes itself to whatever Node it is in, as well as any other IC that may be on that same Node so they can comunicate and thus doesn't need the Command Program in order to trigger a system alert.
Now the Node itself can be programed with various responces to a system alert, ranging from spawning more IC, to severing conections, or even rebooting itself, with no Command Program needed.
However, if for whatever reason an Agent wanted the Node to do something which the Node wasn't pre-programed to do (And I'd personally rule that the number of responces were pretty limited as a Node is running a System Program and not a Pilot.) then the Agent would need a Command or Edit Programs just like a Decker would.
---
At least that is my take on it.
*Edit*
Naw, after thinking about it, my take doesn't work on this one, so I think I'd just handwave the issue and say that IC only needs Edit or Command if they wanted the Node to do something that it wasn't already pre-programed to do if X happened.
---
IC needs to be able to trigger a system alert at a moment's notice, so although it's invisible at the level that RAW looks at, IC automatically subscribes itself to whatever Node it is in, as well as any other IC that may be on that same Node so they can comunicate and thus doesn't need the Command Program in order to trigger a system alert.
Now the Node itself can be programed with various responces to a system alert, ranging from spawning more IC, to severing conections, or even rebooting itself, with no Command Program needed.
However, if for whatever reason an Agent wanted the Node to do something which the Node wasn't pre-programed to do (And I'd personally rule that the number of responces were pretty limited as a Node is running a System Program and not a Pilot.) then the Agent would need a Command or Edit Programs just like a Decker would.
---
At least that is my take on it.
*Edit*
Naw, after thinking about it, my take doesn't work on this one, so I think I'd just handwave the issue and say that IC only needs Edit or Command if they wanted the Node to do something that it wasn't already pre-programed to do if X happened.
That's fair enough.
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