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neko128
I think I'm reading/interpreting the rules correctly, and not missing any, but I thought I'd run it on here and make sure.

Our friendly neighborhood Street Sam, wielding an AK-97 with 1 bullet left, meets a Force 4 Earth Elemental in a dark alley (the Elemental is, obviously enough, Manifested, and thus subject to physical damage with his Immunity to Normal Weapons). Attack is rolled, Reaction dice are rolled, and the Sam ends up with 1 net hit - the gun has a modified DV of 6P. The Elemental, however, as a Force 4, has a Magic of 4 and (through Immunity) hardened armor, and thus nothing happens.

After the Earth Elemental has eaten the first Street Samurai, a second Street Sam walks in - also lugging an AK-97, also with one bullet left, but this time it's APDS. 1net hit, modified DV of 6, but this time the Elemental is treated as 4 hardened armor (-4 AP); the attack goes through against 12 dice (body = force + 4, 4 armor after AP). On average, the Elemental gets 4 successes, and takes 2 damage.

Did I miss anything in those two examples?

Okay. Third example. This Sam didn't run out of ammo, and has enough left for a short burst. He does a narrow burst and, with his 15 dice after modifiers against the 8 reaction dice of the Elemental, gets an average of about 2 net hits. This time, the modified DV is 9 (5 base + 2 narrow burst + 2 net hits), which is above the elemental's armor anyway, so it ends up being full physical damage against 16 dice (8 body + 8 armor), for an average of 4 actual boxes.

Again, am I missing anything?

The reason I ask is because in the few games I've run, I've never actually had a spirit take fire from someone yet, but it seems like they're weirdly easy to take down with guns considering their supposed "immunity to normal weapons".
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (neko128)
Elemental is, obviously enough, Manifested, and thus subject to physical damage with his Immunity to Normal Weapons).

The elemental is Materialized.
If the elemental were manifested it could be seen by living things on the physical plane, and talk to them, but neither could affect the other.
TheGothfather
QUOTE ("neko128")
This time, the modified DV is 9 (5 base + 2 narrow burst + 2 net hits)
IIRC, burst-fire and autofire are not considered when determining whether or not a shot penetrates armor. Only the base damage of the weapon + net hits vs. the modified armor rating. In this example, your comparing a DV of 7 (5 base + 2 net hits) vs. the spirits armor of 8.
Jaid
also, you got your burst fire example wrong.

the +2 DV for a 3 round burst does not add to penetrating immunity to normal weapons.

[edit] ack, beaten to the punch! [/edit]
FrankTrollman
An AK-97 is an assault rifle, and has a base DV of 6, so if you got 1 net hit the modified DV would be 7. Furthermore the wepaon has an AP of -1 to begin with. It still bounces in this example, because a DV of 7 isn't more than the modified Hardened Armor of 7 - but it's a lot closer than you're making it out.

QUOTE
After the Earth Elemental has eaten the first Street Samurai, a second Street Sam walks in - also lugging an AK-97, also with one bullet left, but this time it's APDS. 1net hit, modified DV of 6, but this time the Elemental is treated as 4 hardened armor (-4 AP); the attack goes through against 12 dice (body = force + 4, 4 armor after AP). On average, the Elemental gets 4 successes, and takes 2 damage.


It's 7 DV, and only 11 resistance dice - so the average is 3.3 Physical.

QUOTE
Okay. Third example. This Sam didn't run out of ammo, and has enough left for a short burst. He does a narrow burst and, with his 15 dice after modifiers against the 8 reaction dice of the Elemental, gets an average of about 2 net hits. This time, the modified DV is 9 (5 base + 2 narrow burst + 2 net hits), which is above the elemental's armor anyway, so it ends up being full physical damage against 16 dice (8 body + 8 armor), for an average of 4 actual boxes.


The Elemental only has a Reaction of 6, not 8. The Burst bonus is handed out at the end (after comparison to the Hardened Armor). So the average is 3 net hits. Which is still plenty to push the DV up to 9 (more than the modified Hardened Armor of 7). Then the Burst gets factored in and pushes the DV up to 11. The Spirit rolls 15 dice to soak and is left with 6 Physical.

That's a simple action, so the Street Sam then follows up with a second burst, and this time the Spirit only rolls 3 defense dice (-1 for a second attack, -2 from wound penalties), and is soaking 12 average damage - taking 7 more boxes of Physical. Try throwing in some Called Shots to jack the DV up so that they explode more satisfactorily.

QUOTE
The reason I ask is because in the few games I've run, I've never actually had a spirit take fire from someone yet, but it seems like they're weirdly easy to take down with guns considering their supposed "immunity to normal weapons".


I wouldn't call it easy - but it is certainly possible. And while I've seen street samurai take down Force 11 Great Form spirits, it's really hard. Force 4 is about the overall effectiveness of a skilled normal. Force 6-8 is usually about the equivalent of a skilled Shadowrunner, and Forces of 9-12 are boss monsters in their own right.

-Frank
neko128
Okay. For the AK-97 stats, I had the intelligent moment of reading the stats for the AK-97 Carbine, and simply calling it an AK-97. Ah, well. nyahnyah.gif

For the EE's Reaction, my copy of SR4 lists it as Fx2, and at the time I hadn't noticed the Errata for it. So yes, I should have been using 6, not 8.

Thanks for pointing out my flaws and helping me find a couple of little niches in the rules I'd missed before (most importantly, the clause under Burst Fire about the burst value not counting for the armor/hardened armor damage checks). nyahnyah.gif
Glyph
To get through hardened armor, you want to fire wide bursts, which subtract from your enemy's defending dice, which gives you more net hits, which makes it likelier that you will stage up your damage enough to get through that armor.
stable_sort
QUOTE (TheGothfather)
QUOTE ("neko128")
This time, the modified DV is 9 (5 base + 2 narrow burst + 2 net hits)
IIRC, burst-fire and autofire are not considered when determining whether or not a shot penetrates armor. Only the base damage of the weapon + net hits vs. the modified armor rating. In this example, your comparing a DV of 7 (5 base + 2 net hits) vs. the spirits armor of 8.

Thanks for pointing that out. It would have been nice if the section on Armor had mentioned that as well (the only reference I found was under Burst Fire).
neko128
QUOTE (stable_sort)
QUOTE (TheGothfather @ Jul 31 2007, 04:20 PM)
QUOTE ("neko128")
This time, the modified DV is 9 (5 base + 2 narrow burst + 2 net hits)
IIRC, burst-fire and autofire are not considered when determining whether or not a shot penetrates armor. Only the base damage of the weapon + net hits vs. the modified armor rating. In this example, your comparing a DV of 7 (5 base + 2 net hits) vs. the spirits armor of 8.

Thanks for pointing that out. It would have been nice if the section on Armor had mentioned that as well (the only reference I found was under Burst Fire).

Yeah, that's why I missed it; it was in a spot in the rules I just wasn't expecting it to be in. At the same time, all references to armor talk about the "Modified DV", so unless you find the specific reference not counting rate-of-fire mods, it's highly inobvious that the burst mod doesn't apply.
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