One of my players has picked up the Increase Reflexes spell.
I have to admit that I'm having trouble figuring out how it isn't hideously, hideously broken.
First off, it seems to imply that it wants the caster to roll a spellcasting test, which is Spellcasting+Magic. With a mildly twinked character this can be 12 dice without even much of a stretch. 12 dice gives an average of 4 successes . . . and 4 successes is the maximum threshold you can get on that spell, giving a whopping 4 IP and a less interesting initiative bonus. Plus Force doesn't seem to factor in in any way, so that's a Force 1 spell meaning the mage has to resist drain 2s.
Obviously this is broken. So what I decided to do, and I don't know if this is correct because I couldn't find it in the book, is to make Force be the number of dice you roll for the Threshold test. Any successes on Spellcasting+Magic get added to the Force. That seems better.
Or it did until we actually tried it out. Our mage rolled 9 spellcasting dice, got 3 successes, added that to his force for 8 dice - already we're looking at 2 or 3 successes likely - and then added Edge to it. Whee! Lots of successes, easily more than 4.
The worst part is that it wasn't even on him. It was on our ninja with a monofilament whip. Which he then cast Improved Invisibility on as well (with edge), and then managed to squeeze a Improved Invisibility on himself on top of things (again, with edge). And the mage proceeded to hide in a corner while the ninja diced things happily.
Note that Improved Invisibility, like Increase Reflexes, appears to ignore Force. Again, maybe I'm missing something. We used the same technique that I did for Increase Reflexes.
If I can't find another solution, I'm just going to say that, for situations like this, you roll Magic+Spellcasting+Edge-if-desired. Zero hits means a failure. Any other hits are added to the Force, and those dice are rolled without edge allowed, and hits on those are actual successes for the sake of the spell. Anything past that just seems overpowered to me. But I'd love to hear other people's comments on this.
Full Version: Increase Reflexes: How does it work?
The Force a spell is cast at is the hard cap for the amount of effective hits the caster can achieve - hits beyond that amount are null. So, in the case of Increase Reflexes, it has to be cast at at least Force 4 (big deal, I know) to get max effect. The balance factor for that spell though is that it has to be sustained (either by the caster, a spirit, or a sustaining focus) or quickened to be effective - it's worthless otherwise.
In the case of Improved Invisibility, the hits are the threshold for individuals to resist the spell and thus notice the caster. It also has to be sustained.
But, when it comes down to it, welcome to the world of SR magic - a team with magical support will dominate a group without. Nuff said.
In the case of Improved Invisibility, the hits are the threshold for individuals to resist the spell and thus notice the caster. It also has to be sustained.
But, when it comes down to it, welcome to the world of SR magic - a team with magical support will dominate a group without. Nuff said.
@ZorbaTHut: In this case, the rules aren't hideously broken, just your understanding of them. 
Spells are limited by their force for the number of hits you can get (not net hits, but raw hits). Therefore the mage has to cast a force 4 spell which means he has to have Magic 4 or he takes physical drain. He must resist drain on a force 4 spell, not a force 1 spell, in order to get level 4 results which is what's needed in order to get +3 IP. As per the errata on the shadowrpg.com site, you can not heal any drain damage with magic, so if he takes physical drain, he'll be sore a long time (unless someone has good first aid skills). Also, the spell must be sustained at a cumulative -2 dice to physical actions per spell that you maintain.
In conclusion, after spending 15 BP to be a magician, 40 BP for Magic, untold BP on drain attributes like Willpower and Charisma, and 3 BP for the Increased Reflexes spell and he's going to hurt himself casting the spell and he takes serious penalties to maintain the spell. So yeah, the system is balanced.
Spells are limited by their force for the number of hits you can get (not net hits, but raw hits). Therefore the mage has to cast a force 4 spell which means he has to have Magic 4 or he takes physical drain. He must resist drain on a force 4 spell, not a force 1 spell, in order to get level 4 results which is what's needed in order to get +3 IP. As per the errata on the shadowrpg.com site, you can not heal any drain damage with magic, so if he takes physical drain, he'll be sore a long time (unless someone has good first aid skills). Also, the spell must be sustained at a cumulative -2 dice to physical actions per spell that you maintain.
In conclusion, after spending 15 BP to be a magician, 40 BP for Magic, untold BP on drain attributes like Willpower and Charisma, and 3 BP for the Increased Reflexes spell and he's going to hurt himself casting the spell and he takes serious penalties to maintain the spell. So yeah, the system is balanced.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| The balance factor for that spell though is that it has to be sustained (either by the caster, a spirit, or a sustaining focus) or quickened to be effective - it's worthless otherwise. |
Not to mention the fact that enemies can dispel it, as can environmental factors (such as wards).
Even with the force cap I'm not convinced that all of this is balanced. For one thing, that brings it up to a whopping drain of 4 instead of 2, which is not exactly something to worry about. Especially because virtually any good combat mage is going to have magic at 4 or above.
I suppose the fundamental problem I have is that I don't like any game mechanic which translates into "any party must have an X to be effective", and it's looking like I'm going to need to put a magician with heavy counterspelling abilities into every single encounter just so they can, you know, see the players and not get instantly slaughtered by them. And even then it's going to come down to "does this single magician get good enough rolls or not". I don't like single overpowered game mechanics, and this seems pretty overpowered, especially compared to other similar spells (Increase Attribute, for example.) The only other mechanics I can think of to deal with this - carrying a few smoke grenades around per person, for example, and then throwing them at whoever is getting sliced in half - seem like things no realistic group would really do unless they knew exactly what was coming at them.
As a GM (or a group of players, for that matter), how would you all deal with a mage/melee combo where the mage ends up casting Improved Invisibility on both himself and the melee monster, and buffing up the melee monster with 4 initiative passes, then just hiding wherever he can? And what possible group could deal with this combo without being obviously prepared for this exact situation? Maybe there are ways of dealing with this that I simply don't realize.
I suppose the fundamental problem I have is that I don't like any game mechanic which translates into "any party must have an X to be effective", and it's looking like I'm going to need to put a magician with heavy counterspelling abilities into every single encounter just so they can, you know, see the players and not get instantly slaughtered by them. And even then it's going to come down to "does this single magician get good enough rolls or not". I don't like single overpowered game mechanics, and this seems pretty overpowered, especially compared to other similar spells (Increase Attribute, for example.) The only other mechanics I can think of to deal with this - carrying a few smoke grenades around per person, for example, and then throwing them at whoever is getting sliced in half - seem like things no realistic group would really do unless they knew exactly what was coming at them.
As a GM (or a group of players, for that matter), how would you all deal with a mage/melee combo where the mage ends up casting Improved Invisibility on both himself and the melee monster, and buffing up the melee monster with 4 initiative passes, then just hiding wherever he can? And what possible group could deal with this combo without being obviously prepared for this exact situation? Maybe there are ways of dealing with this that I simply don't realize.
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| In conclusion, after spending 15 BP to be a magician, 40 BP for Magic, untold BP on drain attributes like Willpower and Charisma, and 3 BP for the Increased Reflexes spell and he's going to hurt himself casting the spell and he takes serious penalties to maintain the spell. So yeah, the system is balanced. |
One character that can single-handedly more-than-quadruple the effectiveness of any combat character seems pretty painfully unbalanced to me.
Remember that the only thing he's doing after casting the spells is hiding in a corner with line-of-sight. The penalties don't matter. And at Force 4, he's taking 4 drain once for the entire battle. With stats of 4/4 he's going to end up taking about 1 drain on average . . . for an entire battle. The drain doesn't really matter either.
Yea, that is pretty nasty.
But consider that the samurai will, eventually, buy 'ware that gives him up to 4 passes anyway.
And you can't dispell those t all. Short of hacking.
And since the mage hides, he doesn't add to the damage, so that 1 samurai may be as dangerous as 4, but he has to fight for 2, making it "somewhat" as if there were simply 2 samurai with 2 passes each. - Perfectly attainable otherwise.
To me your primary problem sounds like the fact that you can't detect them, due to the invisibility spell. This can be negated by either Ultravision or the new Radar vision. - Not to mention pressure plates and tripwires, MAD systems and so on.
Also remember, that to pass a Ward, spells has to defeat it, making it hard for the samurai to cross over without losing his buffs.
4P is not unbalancing. Perhaps it IS, early in the game, but as characters develop, several passes are more of a must than otherwise. Also, many sec-types that are unwired have booster drugs that give them an extra pass...
But consider that the samurai will, eventually, buy 'ware that gives him up to 4 passes anyway.
And you can't dispell those t all. Short of hacking.
And since the mage hides, he doesn't add to the damage, so that 1 samurai may be as dangerous as 4, but he has to fight for 2, making it "somewhat" as if there were simply 2 samurai with 2 passes each. - Perfectly attainable otherwise.
To me your primary problem sounds like the fact that you can't detect them, due to the invisibility spell. This can be negated by either Ultravision or the new Radar vision. - Not to mention pressure plates and tripwires, MAD systems and so on.
Also remember, that to pass a Ward, spells has to defeat it, making it hard for the samurai to cross over without losing his buffs.
4P is not unbalancing. Perhaps it IS, early in the game, but as characters develop, several passes are more of a must than otherwise. Also, many sec-types that are unwired have booster drugs that give them an extra pass...
And considering that most characters have 3P, (including many mages since F3 is the best sustaining focus you can get at chargen), 4P is not that much of an advantage.
@ZorbaTHut: It sounds like you still don't understand the game mechanics. If the mage wants to "quadruple the effectiveness of the entire team" he'll have to cast the Increased Reflexes spell again and again on each team member. It isn't ONE drain test as you said, but one drain test for each member for each spell. For a team of 4, that's 4 drain tests. Also, he'll take sustaining penalties for each spell that he maintains, so for 4 team members that's -8 die to all physical actions including dodging and perception. And that's just to give them an ability they should have spent the cash by buying cyber for themselves.
So yeah if the mage loves just standing in the corner like a comatose duck, then the other team member can have lots of fun. I certainly wouldn't play a mage like that, I like to have fun too.
Regarding needing a mage for counterspelling, yeah you need a mage because your enemies will probably have a mage. They'll also need a hacker because their enemies probably have stuff behind secure systems.
It sounds like you are having a hard time with the whole concept of "magic". If you want to play a hack-and-slash fighter-only game, maybe you should try D&D?
So yeah if the mage loves just standing in the corner like a comatose duck, then the other team member can have lots of fun. I certainly wouldn't play a mage like that, I like to have fun too.
Regarding needing a mage for counterspelling, yeah you need a mage because your enemies will probably have a mage. They'll also need a hacker because their enemies probably have stuff behind secure systems.
It sounds like you are having a hard time with the whole concept of "magic". If you want to play a hack-and-slash fighter-only game, maybe you should try D&D?
| QUOTE (ZorbaTHut) |
| I suppose the fundamental problem I have is that I don't like any game mechanic which translates into "any party must have an X to be effective", and it's looking like I'm going to need to put a magician with heavy counterspelling abilities into every single encounter just so they can, you know, see the players and not get instantly slaughtered by them. |
Despite the (fluff and crunch {Grimoire I or II} ) quote from my last post here, it isn't strictly necessary to have a magician in every opposition team. Things like wards, background count, bound spirits, visibility modifiers (in the case of combat spells), "status effects" (opposition armed with DMSO-Hyper weapons, other drugs, poisons, etc), traps (hidden monowire, sentry guns, thermal or ultrasound sensors, etc), multiple opponents, smart opponents, and the odd paracritter can go a long way toward making life miserable for a mage, not to mention the paranoid joy of having to wipe his astral signature from everyplace he goes for fear of someone linking it and thus him to his no doubt myriad crimes.
Further, with the invisibility issue, standard response once people start dying would IMO be to flush the area with tear gas or some other irritant, sound an alarm, retreat to cover (preferably someplace where the team can see incoming foot prints and unload on them), and call for back up, hoping an astral mage can get there ASAP (with his zoo of bound spirits) to help deal. Lone Star and corp sec divisions should have such individuals on call 24-7, while organized crime will be very much more hit and miss (and gangs are just screwed). But in any case, what I would do is let them get away with such a few times, and then make them pay
Things like Lone Star tracking their astral sig or forensic evidence in the hunt for the brutal Monowire Killer (which is splashed all over the media btw), or perhaps some of their own enemies (or friends) using similar tactics should drive home the point rather nicely. Remember, the point should be to get them to use a variety of tactics, not to punish them for effectively using the tools at their disposal.And if that doesn't work, drop an orbital cow on the offending mage
And remember, as a GM you are God. You can afford to be patient and let the PCs hang themselves with munchiness (if that is what they are doing) and throw group after group of NPCs in the meat grinder (and let the PCs see you smile as you do so, builds the paranoia ). NPCs don't matter, but each dead body builds up to bigger and bigger backlash for the PCs down the road. You have no responsibility to keep your NPCs alive per se, but only to present a logically consistent world and you do that by going the backlash route.
The only thing to remember when going this route is that in this mindset SR is not a game, it is the real world. Act as if that is true and you'll be fine.
). NPCs don't matter, but each dead body builds up to bigger and bigger backlash for the PCs down the road. You have no responsibility to keep your NPCs alive per se, but only to present a logically consistent world and you do that by going the backlash route. The only thing to remember when going this route is that in this mindset SR is not a game, it is the real world. Act as if that is true and you'll be fine.
There is a very simple technological fix for the invisibility problem: ultrasound. If you really want to turn the tables on the players - and shock the hell out of them:
*Give all the NPCs ultrasound vision googles
*Let the characters sneak all stealthily into the fire zone
*Have the NPCs drop Flash Packs and IR smoke grenades
All the NPCs can see and fire at the PCs with a -2 modifier. The PCs will be surprised as hell they've been found. Depending on whether they have flare comp, astral sight, thermo vision, etc - they will be suffering -2 to -6 modifiers on all their roles.
They'll quickly learn that Imp. Invis isn't a save all and ultrasound goggles are a must for any running team.
*Give all the NPCs ultrasound vision googles
*Let the characters sneak all stealthily into the fire zone
*Have the NPCs drop Flash Packs and IR smoke grenades
All the NPCs can see and fire at the PCs with a -2 modifier. The PCs will be surprised as hell they've been found. Depending on whether they have flare comp, astral sight, thermo vision, etc - they will be suffering -2 to -6 modifiers on all their roles.
They'll quickly learn that Imp. Invis isn't a save all and ultrasound goggles are a must for any running team.
| QUOTE (ZorbaTHut) |
| One character that can single-handedly more-than-quadruple the effectiveness of any combat character seems pretty painfully unbalanced to me. Remember that the only thing he's doing after casting the spells is hiding in a corner with line-of-sight. The penalties don't matter. And at Force 4, he's taking 4 drain once for the entire battle. With stats of 4/4 he's going to end up taking about 1 drain on average . . . for an entire battle. The drain doesn't really matter either. |
Penalties and Drain are accounted each time the spell is cast. Mage is probably dead or unconscious by the third one if you are doing this correctly.
If the mage is casting one spell and hiding in a corner, he's a pretty awful runner, I think. You might say the spell is unbalanced because its ill effects have no effect while he's hiding in a corner, but he's also not contributing anything to the combat then. In a way, it's as though the spell completely incapacitated him. Hard to argue that complete incapacitation is too small a penalty for Increased Reflexes.
And, as a GM, I'd say that's a good time for someone to yell "Geek the mage!" The -2 sustaining penalty applies to Reaction rolls against attacks.
That's my take on it.
And, as a GM, I'd say that's a good time for someone to yell "Geek the mage!" The -2 sustaining penalty applies to Reaction rolls against attacks.
That's my take on it.
Well, why don't you make these two guys' opponent be a couple medium Force spirits...Mr. Ninja, no matter how many IPs, is going to have some issues...
I think someone above said it well, a group with magic is basically going to own on a mundane group all day...drop a couple spirits against them and I think you will see you still have a lot of tools to use to counter your players and give them a challenge.
Also, AoE effects don't need to see...and if the NPCs are going to die anyways, why not toss a grenade or two into the mix???
I think someone above said it well, a group with magic is basically going to own on a mundane group all day...drop a couple spirits against them and I think you will see you still have a lot of tools to use to counter your players and give them a challenge.
Also, AoE effects don't need to see...and if the NPCs are going to die anyways, why not toss a grenade or two into the mix???
Or, if you're not a fan of spirits, never underestimate the power of a small drone with an explosive device
have your NPCs use suppressive fire more often, imo...
certainly, the guards should not initially be trying to kill the players, they should be calling in backup, alerting LS, etc... and then waiting for the cavalry to arrive.
certainly, the guards should not initially be trying to kill the players, they should be calling in backup, alerting LS, etc... and then waiting for the cavalry to arrive.
Question: Doesn't Improved Invisibility only handle living and technological "optical" sensors? Shouldn't you be able to see through it Thermographically?
And also, not everyone relies on just sight. Did he just turn that hulking Troll invisible? Can't you smell him, hear his footsteps and his heavy weaponry? I'd be more concerned about a Spirit 4 with Concealment running over 4 party members. That's -4 to all perception tests with a Force 4 Spirit, and even then they may be allowed a Shadowing/Infiltration roll like with Invisibility.
Ultrasound of course would see right through Invisibility and that nifty new personal radar system. And of course they're not invisible astrally.
The only solution really is to amp up their opponents, use wards and bound spirits like crazy, or create situations where shooting and killing real well might not be the optimum solution.
And also, not everyone relies on just sight. Did he just turn that hulking Troll invisible? Can't you smell him, hear his footsteps and his heavy weaponry? I'd be more concerned about a Spirit 4 with Concealment running over 4 party members. That's -4 to all perception tests with a Force 4 Spirit, and even then they may be allowed a Shadowing/Infiltration roll like with Invisibility.
Ultrasound of course would see right through Invisibility and that nifty new personal radar system. And of course they're not invisible astrally.
The only solution really is to amp up their opponents, use wards and bound spirits like crazy, or create situations where shooting and killing real well might not be the optimum solution.
Magic is a nice resource to have on hand, and any corp worth their salt is going to have as many Mages on retainer as possible, but having an actual wageMage on site 24/7 isn't really needed to handle runner Mages if they have an intelligentaly designed security layout that uses enviromental factors against intruders.
As has been mentioned, some of the first things a security team should be doing when confronted with runners is turn off the lights, lay down thermo-smoke, trigger the release of harmless living spores, toss a few flashpacks and use supressing fire to pin the Runners down until backup can get there.
While phyiscal security is racking up the negative Modifiers the corp Decker should be wrecking virtual havoc if the team is stupid enough to believe Fourth Edition's description of typical PAN setups, image links should be filled with static, pop-ups, swirling test patterns disigned to make metahumans lose their lunch, ect. Sound links should start blasting random sounds loud enough to make the ears bleed and if the team wants to keep their toys running then the team's Decker is effectively kept busy fending off virtual attacks.
More then likely the site is using Spirits for magical security, in which case the Mage is in for a nasty suprise if she tries to use Second Sight to get around most of the visibility Modifiers (Which sadly for the Mage wouldn't have worked anyways.). And the first thing the secMage is going to do is protect the secguards with counterspelling and try to lay down some Mana Static using whatever vision mode has the least penalities via corp sponsered cyberyes.
Remember that a security team doesn't have to kill the Runners to "win", all they have to do is delay the Runners.
As has been mentioned, some of the first things a security team should be doing when confronted with runners is turn off the lights, lay down thermo-smoke, trigger the release of harmless living spores, toss a few flashpacks and use supressing fire to pin the Runners down until backup can get there.
While phyiscal security is racking up the negative Modifiers the corp Decker should be wrecking virtual havoc if the team is stupid enough to believe Fourth Edition's description of typical PAN setups, image links should be filled with static, pop-ups, swirling test patterns disigned to make metahumans lose their lunch, ect. Sound links should start blasting random sounds loud enough to make the ears bleed and if the team wants to keep their toys running then the team's Decker is effectively kept busy fending off virtual attacks.
More then likely the site is using Spirits for magical security, in which case the Mage is in for a nasty suprise if she tries to use Second Sight to get around most of the visibility Modifiers (Which sadly for the Mage wouldn't have worked anyways.). And the first thing the secMage is going to do is protect the secguards with counterspelling and try to lay down some Mana Static using whatever vision mode has the least penalities via corp sponsered cyberyes.
Remember that a security team doesn't have to kill the Runners to "win", all they have to do is delay the Runners.
| QUOTE (Marwynn) |
| Question: Doesn't Improved Invisibility only handle living and technological "optical" sensors? Shouldn't you be able to see through it Thermographically? |
No - thermo, however it's obtained, is effectively vision...unless they added the 'pit viper gland' back into the game in augmentation, which was the one-and-only exception.
As for the force 4 spirit...-4 dice sounds nice, but it's not very reliable when off-the-shelf non-cyber vision mods can give +3 right back.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) | ||
No - thermo, however it's obtained, is effectively vision...unless they added the 'pit viper gland' back into the game in augmentation, which was the one-and-only exception. As for the force 4 spirit...-4 dice sounds nice, but it's not very reliable when off-the-shelf non-cyber vision mods can give +3 right back. |
They did, actually. In augmentation. I don't think they CALL it the 'pit viper gland'... but I did see some sort of thermal organ in the neck in the book.
Unless I was seeing things again. My Dog keeps telling me to take my pills....
Regarding the original question about Increased Reflexes, I'm not sure I see the issue.
First, note that Sustaining Foci are limited to Force 3 at character creation. This means that at best, a magician can have the equivalence of Wired Reflexes 2 without suffering a sustaining penalty. WR2 is also the maximum limit of all other options at character creation as far as I'm aware at the moment, so it's no big deal.
Next, note that Wired Reflexes 2 (a very common implant) costs only 32,000¥ and 3.00 Essence. To get Increased Reflexes 3 and the required focus costs a grand total of 12 BP which is the equivalence of 60,000¥. No real bargain there aside from the lack of an Essence cost.
More than that, Wired Reflexes 2 and its alternatives gives an +Initiative Passes bonus as well as a +Reaction bonus. Increased Reflexes gives a +IP bonus but only a +Initiative bonus. Reaction is superior in every way to Initiative, namely because Reaction boosts Initiative on top of everything else it does.
Finally, Increase Reflexes is susceptable to counterspelling, has to be deactivated when passing through wards, requires two metamagic techniques to conceal (as opposed to just one normally; Masking and Extended Masking), and so on and so forth. Further, every time it is deactivated or counterspelled, the magician has to recast it, lowering his chances of hitting that Threshold of 3 and completely resisting the drain due to situational and potential wound modifiers. All while the character with a Wired Reflexes 2 is running at top performance from start to finish.
It has its perks and it has its flaws. Neither is superior than the other, much like most options for similar effects in the game.
First, note that Sustaining Foci are limited to Force 3 at character creation. This means that at best, a magician can have the equivalence of Wired Reflexes 2 without suffering a sustaining penalty. WR2 is also the maximum limit of all other options at character creation as far as I'm aware at the moment, so it's no big deal.
Next, note that Wired Reflexes 2 (a very common implant) costs only 32,000¥ and 3.00 Essence. To get Increased Reflexes 3 and the required focus costs a grand total of 12 BP which is the equivalence of 60,000¥. No real bargain there aside from the lack of an Essence cost.
More than that, Wired Reflexes 2 and its alternatives gives an +Initiative Passes bonus as well as a +Reaction bonus. Increased Reflexes gives a +IP bonus but only a +Initiative bonus. Reaction is superior in every way to Initiative, namely because Reaction boosts Initiative on top of everything else it does.
Finally, Increase Reflexes is susceptable to counterspelling, has to be deactivated when passing through wards, requires two metamagic techniques to conceal (as opposed to just one normally; Masking and Extended Masking), and so on and so forth. Further, every time it is deactivated or counterspelled, the magician has to recast it, lowering his chances of hitting that Threshold of 3 and completely resisting the drain due to situational and potential wound modifiers. All while the character with a Wired Reflexes 2 is running at top performance from start to finish.
It has its perks and it has its flaws. Neither is superior than the other, much like most options for similar effects in the game.
Just a note, but many groups house-rule the number of successes to either 2, 4, and 6, or 2, 3, and 5 for 1, 2, and 3 extra actions respectively.
This requires both increasing the force of the spell, and getting luckier on the casting test. MOST mages are not going to have 12+ spellcasting dice for increase reflexes out of the starting gate. Doing so requires a Magic of six, and spellcasting of six, or both at 5 and a specialization in (is it health spells?) or some other very expensive combo. 2, 4, and 6 successes requires an EXCEPTIONAL mage to get 3 extra passes with any regularity, and in order to even try for it you have to risk more significant drain. Sure, edge can improve the odds a lot, but edge points are a limited resource. Spend them here, and you won't have them to spend later in the run, when your life will be on the line. Hell, most mages I have seen in SR4 don't have a great edge anyway. They had to dump so many build points on magic stuff mot with up with edge at 1 (or 2 if Human).
Edit: Oh, 2,4,6 also puts +2 IP out of range for starting sustaining spell foci.
This requires both increasing the force of the spell, and getting luckier on the casting test. MOST mages are not going to have 12+ spellcasting dice for increase reflexes out of the starting gate. Doing so requires a Magic of six, and spellcasting of six, or both at 5 and a specialization in (is it health spells?) or some other very expensive combo. 2, 4, and 6 successes requires an EXCEPTIONAL mage to get 3 extra passes with any regularity, and in order to even try for it you have to risk more significant drain. Sure, edge can improve the odds a lot, but edge points are a limited resource. Spend them here, and you won't have them to spend later in the run, when your life will be on the line. Hell, most mages I have seen in SR4 don't have a great edge anyway. They had to dump so many build points on magic stuff mot with up with edge at 1 (or 2 if Human).
Edit: Oh, 2,4,6 also puts +2 IP out of range for starting sustaining spell foci.
| QUOTE (Lebo77) |
| Edit: Oh, 2,4,6 also puts +2 IP out of range for starting sustaining spell foci. |
Dr. Funk already pointed out how Increase Reflexes is numerically inferior to Wired Reflexes in all the important ways, so I don't see the point in nerfing it further upon character generation by houseruling it that way. Going with 2,3, and 5 makes sense numerically and isn't a bad fix, but I don't think I'm concerned enough about it to bother houseruling.
| QUOTE (Unarmed) | ||
Dr. Funk already pointed out how Increase Reflexes is numerically inferior to Wired Reflexes in all the important ways, so I don't see the point in nerfing it further upon character generation by houseruling it that way. Going with 2,3, and 5 makes sense numerically and isn't a bad fix, but I don't think I'm concerned enough about it to bother houseruling. |
Oh sure. Your mileage may vary. I play in games where both the the RAW and with the 2,4,6 progression. It depends a lot on the group. If you have a bunch of cheesy power-gamers, the 2,4,6 progression keeps 4 IPs as a rare and special thing (I think it should be, since a sammy needs to dump 5 points of essence on WR3 or a HUGE pile of money on Synaptic 3.)
I really think the OP's problem here is more a player problem than a magical one. It sounds to me like he has a 2 runner team, one super ninja who got together with the mage and decided that he was going to skip IP increasing tech in the interest of making himself really hard to hit with a huge dice pool to attack so the Mage can just Improved Invis him and Inc. Reflex him and they will own stuff. The problem there being it doesn't sound like the CHARACTERS are balanced. Send them on runs other than straight slaughters. Make them retrieve a package from a locked room that is contained via puzzle locks or something. Make them extract someone from a corp but apply a "They must not know what happened until X time." caveat to the contract so they can't just kill their way in. Then use the various magic defeating tech devices as security and make them think their way in.
The big thing to remember about SR is that none of this stuff is new. Corps have been implementing ways to defeat mages since magic came back over 50 years ago. EVERY and I mean EVERY trained sec guard in the world has had at least a few "magical defense" seminars on how to react in situations just like what you described. You know "If Bill is suddenly sliced in half for no apparent reason, lay down covering fire, thermal smoke, and hit the big red button labeled "Summon Magical Backup", then fight a defensive hindering action while on a tactical retreat till your support gets there." Hell, I'm sure a lot of corps purchase possession Guardian spirit contracts(karma for year and day service) to beef up their sec forces. I mean, when Bill the sec guard suddenly gets hardened armor 8, +4 to all physical stats, the ability to see in the astral(penetrates invis), and combat skill in whatever weapon he has at 4, he's ALOT more dangerous.
Again, just to stress, this is nothing that the corporation hasn't dealt with a thousand times before. You just need to think up some realistic response scenarios.
Chris
The big thing to remember about SR is that none of this stuff is new. Corps have been implementing ways to defeat mages since magic came back over 50 years ago. EVERY and I mean EVERY trained sec guard in the world has had at least a few "magical defense" seminars on how to react in situations just like what you described. You know "If Bill is suddenly sliced in half for no apparent reason, lay down covering fire, thermal smoke, and hit the big red button labeled "Summon Magical Backup", then fight a defensive hindering action while on a tactical retreat till your support gets there." Hell, I'm sure a lot of corps purchase possession Guardian spirit contracts(karma for year and day service) to beef up their sec forces. I mean, when Bill the sec guard suddenly gets hardened armor 8, +4 to all physical stats, the ability to see in the astral(penetrates invis), and combat skill in whatever weapon he has at 4, he's ALOT more dangerous.
Again, just to stress, this is nothing that the corporation hasn't dealt with a thousand times before. You just need to think up some realistic response scenarios.
Chris
There's no question that the original poster's problem is with his players. He's just more intent on treating the perceived symptoms than the problem.
| QUOTE (DTFarstar) |
| I really think the OP's problem here is more a player problem than a magical one. It sounds to me like he has a 2 runner team, one super ninja who got together with the mage and decided that he was going to skip IP increasing tech in the interest of making himself really hard to hit with a huge dice pool to attack so the Mage can just Improved Invis him and Inc. Reflex him and they will own stuff. The problem there being it doesn't sound like the CHARACTERS are balanced. Send them on runs other than straight slaughters. Make them retrieve a package from a locked room that is contained via puzzle locks or something. Make them extract someone from a corp but apply a "They must not know what happened until X time." caveat to the contract so they can't just kill their way in. Then use the various magic defeating tech devices as security and make them think their way in. The big thing to remember about SR is that none of this stuff is new. Corps have been implementing ways to defeat mages since magic came back over 50 years ago. EVERY and I mean EVERY trained sec guard in the world has had at least a few "magical defense" seminars on how to react in situations just like what you described. You know "If Bill is suddenly sliced in half for no apparent reason, lay down covering fire, thermal smoke, and hit the big red button labeled "Summon Magical Backup", then fight a defensive hindering action while on a tactical retreat till your support gets there." Hell, I'm sure a lot of corps purchase possession Guardian spirit contracts(karma for year and day service) to beef up their sec forces. I mean, when Bill the sec guard suddenly gets hardened armor 8, +4 to all physical stats, the ability to see in the astral(penetrates invis), and combat skill in whatever weapon he has at 4, he's ALOT more dangerous. Again, just to stress, this is nothing that the corporation hasn't dealt with a thousand times before. You just need to think up some realistic response scenarios. Chris |
The problem is sadly a bit more complicated than that
I've tried to start a Shadowrun game with this group once or twice before with limited success. About two months ago someone mentioned "hey, I'm starting to get interested in Shadowrun, we should try that out again" and so I posted on the mailing list that we should try again and who was interested and let's meet up at this guy's house next weekend.
Natch, seven people show up. And then four of them make non-combat characters. Life has been interesting. I'm having trouble throwing anything at them that they have real issues with - they pretty much walk through whatever I give them so far, and so I'm frantically boosting difficulty and NPC strength in the hopes that I can challenge them. So far the only times I've even scratched them have been through their own blatant stupidity, doing things they knew were stupid but weren't worried about because combat is so easy. Obviously this is not behavior I want to encourage
I thought I had a good combat challenge last time, but then they figured out the invis/IP trick on their melee combat character (the third combat guy wasn't even playing that day!) and, well, so much for that one too. I didn't even get a single character to see the melee guy, except the mage, and I had to cheat on him by retroactively saying he was using astral perception (it didn't help, he wasn't able to counterspell enough to let anyone else see 'em.) I've gotten some good non-combat challenges going - combat challenges are being more of a problem. And I'm trying to come up with realistic ways to not throw them into the heart of corporate espionage on Day 1, since they're supposed to be new and people don't trust them yet. Which makes it tough to explain why they're going up against a pair of cyberzombies and four separate teams in helicopters. (No, I haven't done this yet. Yet.)
I'd forgotten that security teams are probably well-trained, though. Magic is rare, and I've been playing it that way, but I suppose it's not that rare when fighting in the shadows, and people are trained to deal with it in various ways. I just wanted to keep magic moderately rare, so they don't get used to every party having a mage in it because "well I guess everyone needs magical backup".
I suppose I'll just have to start coming up with line-of-sight tricks to keep that mage from buffing people quite as effectively.
And I have been planning on including a conjurer in the next adventure, so maybe that'll help matters. Time to go read up on how they work.
There are a gazillion threads out there about corp security and how to defeat the silenced/imp invis/levetating mage. But just to rehash:
- On the tech side,
*ultra-sound,
*magnetic detectors (for cyberware),
*pherome detectors/chem sniffers (either the scent of the person, or his ammo/explosives/etc),
*pressure plates,
*thermosense organs (not thermographic),
*and radar all potentially catch invisible intruders. - Magical defenses don't require having a mage on site
*Wards can dispel the spell.
*Even if they don't the creator of the ward knows every time his ward has been breached by an unauthorized party.
*Panic buttons can be set to fill a room with FAB, which will light up in the presence of magic.
*Spirits and/or watchers can be sent from the home office to materialize in front of the mage screaming "I'm here, I'm here!!!"
*There are plenty of cheap dual natured paranimals that can be kept on site to point out invisibles - Mundane defenses can shut them down too.
*IR smoke and flash paks make everybody equally blind.
*Area effect weapons work great in closed rooms (stun grenades/freeze foam/gas grenades/electrified (stunning) floor panels etc.)
*Dogs and other mundane animals don't rely primarily on vision, and can therefore find your bad guys easily.
*You give yourself away every time you have to physically open a door. Even better if they're revolving doors, and the corp hacker gets to lock the door when you're halfway through and fill the air with knockout gas of some sort.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| You give yourself away every time you have to physically open a door. Even better if they're revolving doors, and the corp hacker gets to lock the door when you're halfway through and fill the air with knockout gas of some sort. |
Brilliant!
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