One of my characters decided to take a small mod of the Radical Eco-Shaman, and so Raven Shape came up with a number of questions.
First, are there stats anywhere for a raven or other simple, non-awakened bird in 4th-ed? I just ruled it to be 1 body, a dog or a devil rat being 2...
Is there a concept of 0-body critters? There are 0-body drones. Where do you think the line would be for 0-body vs. 1-body - mice vs bugs? Somewhere else?
Is there any recourse for someone who wants to increase body outside the scope of the spell? The character in question is body 3, and if the bird counts as body 1, if the mage goes up to body 4, is the spell just suddenly useless to them? Obviously, Shapechange doesn't have this problem; but it could happen to any critter shape for a small enough critter. A 4-body mage with Demon Rat Shape or Wolf Shape who wants to bump to body 5 would be outside the restriction of the spell. Does it just suck to be them?
For sustaining foci, I thought I remembered that the focus had to remain in contact with the spell or spell subject for it to function; but now that I'm thinking about it, I can't find it. Did I imagine that? What are the limitations on use of them? Do they have to be present to cast a spell? Once the spell is cast, can the focus be left just about anywhere as long as the binding between focus and caster isn't disrupted? This comes up, of course, because shape-changing doesn't affect the animal's possessions, which means the now-naked mage (charisma 7 elf.. And of course that can't go in a good direction with your group of players... *sigh*) in raven form would have to lug it around in its claws to avoid the sustaining penalty...
Full Version: Critter Shape - a few related questions
these are my opinions only:
1)i dont know (ok, so thats a fact, not an opinion)
2)i wouldnt think so. See, a body 0 drone doesnt need to have any life processes to survive, which any living creature would.
3) i dont see any harm in allowing a body reduction of more than 2. i think the rule is there to prevent the body 1 mage from transforming into a body 6 bear, or something.
4) i'm pretty sure all foci need to remain in contact with the spell slinger, so check under the general rules for foci.
1)i dont know (ok, so thats a fact, not an opinion)
2)i wouldnt think so. See, a body 0 drone doesnt need to have any life processes to survive, which any living creature would.
3) i dont see any harm in allowing a body reduction of more than 2. i think the rule is there to prevent the body 1 mage from transforming into a body 6 bear, or something.
4) i'm pretty sure all foci need to remain in contact with the spell slinger, so check under the general rules for foci.
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| 4) i'm pretty sure all foci need to remain in contact with the spell slinger, so check under the general rules for foci. |
Yes, see, that would be far too intelligent. *sigh*
Yup, same page and everything, under "Activation".
| QUOTE (neko128) |
| This comes up, of course, because shape-changing doesn't affect the animal's possessions, which means the now-naked mage (charisma 7 elf.. And of course that can't go in a good direction with your group of players... *sigh*) in raven form would have to lug it around in its claws to avoid the sustaining penalty... |
You could put it on a string.
| QUOTE (Dancer) | ||
You could put it on a string. |
held under the dorsal guiding feathers?
| QUOTE (Jaid) | ||
held under the dorsal guiding feathers? |
Or around your neck. I bet there's a market for specially-designed collars (for a variety of species) that hold sustaining foci.
Make it a ring. Slip it around the raven's ankle or neck, depending on how large or small (and choked) you wanna be.
I don't think it definitively says anywhere if the Increase [Body] spell and Decrease [Body] spell are applied before or after the change in form for purposes of Critter Form and Shapechange.
| QUOTE (Dancer) | ||||
Or around your neck. I bet there's a market for specially-designed collars (for a variety of species) that hold sustaining foci. |
Or a teensy stud earring
| QUOTE (Wasabi) |
| I don't think it definitively says anywhere if the Increase [Body] spell and Decrease [Body] spell are applied before or after the change in form for purposes of Critter Form and Shapechange. |
That's a good thought; say "Sure, you can still use Raven Form, but only after you've Decreased your own body to account for the difference."
Then again, I've always interpreted the body difference max as conservation of mass - you can't gain or lose too much bulk during the shift. Game balance considerations about not shifting into a Dragon are convenient but, in my mind, secondary.
Contrarily, I've always interpreted Increase/Decrease as a magical enhancement/impediment rather than an actual physiological change (however temporary). By that logic, Decrease Body wouldn't apply, because your mass is still too large, just weaker...
I believe however that a customised (and higher drain) version could transform the caster into an elephant, or a butterfly.
| QUOTE (neko128) |
| One of my characters decided to take a small mod of the Radical Eco-Shaman, and so Raven Shape came up with a number of questions. First, are there stats anywhere for a raven or other simple, non-awakened bird in 4th-ed? I just ruled it to be 1 body, a dog or a devil rat being 2... Is there a concept of 0-body critters? There are 0-body drones. Where do you think the line would be for 0-body vs. 1-body - mice vs bugs? Somewhere else? Is there any recourse for someone who wants to increase body outside the scope of the spell? The character in question is body 3, and if the bird counts as body 1, if the mage goes up to body 4, is the spell just suddenly useless to them? Obviously, Shapechange doesn't have this problem; but it could happen to any critter shape for a small enough critter. A 4-body mage with Demon Rat Shape or Wolf Shape who wants to bump to body 5 would be outside the restriction of the spell. Does it just suck to be them? For sustaining foci, I thought I remembered that the focus had to remain in contact with the spell or spell subject for it to function; but now that I'm thinking about it, I can't find it. Did I imagine that? What are the limitations on use of them? Do they have to be present to cast a spell? Once the spell is cast, can the focus be left just about anywhere as long as the binding between focus and caster isn't disrupted? This comes up, of course, because shape-changing doesn't affect the animal's possessions, which means the now-naked mage (charisma 7 elf.. And of course that can't go in a good direction with your group of players... *sigh*) in raven form would have to lug it around in its claws to avoid the sustaining penalty... |
One thing to remember, even body 0 drones have 8 hit boxes (8 + 0/2). So a mouse would likely be a body 0, since it would be about the same size as a 0-body drone (to me at least).
I think 1 body for a raven is appropriate.
As for the body increase dilemma, it could be house ruled to something like "new body rating must be with in force points of current body rating". Meaning if you upgrade your body attribute, you can up the force of the spell and continue to make the spell work.
As for conservation of mass, that went right out the window with this spell.
| QUOTE (Wasabi) | ||||||
Or a teensy stud earring |
*sigh* looks like nobody caught the reference =S
anyways, i personally would remove the restriction on body from the [critter] form spell, just to make up for the fact that the spell is so much more restrictive.
of course, i also favor a version that works entirely differently from the official way...
| QUOTE (Jaid) | ||||||||
*sigh* looks like nobody caught the reference =S anyways, i personally would remove the restriction on body from the [critter] form spell, just to make up for the fact that the spell is so much more restrictive. of course, i also favor a version that works entirely differently from the official way... |
If it makes you feel any better, I got the reference, but I'm talking "Raven Shape" and not "Swallow Shape" (African or European) so I let it slide. And besides, one assumes most sustaining foci are smaller than coconuts.
| QUOTE (neko128 @ Aug 7 2007, 05:15 PM) | ||||||||||
If it makes you feel any better, I got the reference, but I'm talking "Raven Shape" and not "Swallow Shape" (African or European) so I let it slide. And besides, one assumes most sustaining foci are smaller than coconuts. |
Which you can't find in temperate zones. Unless you're suggesting coconuts migrate?
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||||||||||||
Which you can't find in temperate zones. Unless you're suggesting coconuts migrate? |
Newt form, anyone? (don't worry, you'll get better).
Suddenly, I can't recall.
If you're Shapeshifting via magic, and you have cyberware, it changes shape with you, I know, but does it stay chrome or does it look natural?
"Hey Frank?"
"Yeah Gino?"
"That pigeon over there. Izzat a cyber-wing?"
"I believe it is."
"Crazy thing, technology."
"True dat, true dat."
If you're Shapeshifting via magic, and you have cyberware, it changes shape with you, I know, but does it stay chrome or does it look natural?
"Hey Frank?"
"Yeah Gino?"
"That pigeon over there. Izzat a cyber-wing?"
"I believe it is."
"Crazy thing, technology."
"True dat, true dat."
| QUOTE (Wakshaani) |
| Suddenly, I can't recall. If you're Shapeshifting via magic, and you have cyberware, it changes shape with you, I know, but does it stay chrome or does it look natural? "Hey Frank?" "Yeah Gino?" "That pigeon over there. Izzat a cyber-wing?" "I believe it is." "Crazy thing, technology." "True dat, true dat." |
Get a customer foci...
Tatto's are 'part of you' but dont require any essence loss these days.
Nothing stops you from getting an enchanter (might be hard to do yourself) a sustaing foci in the form of rare pigment tatoo on you...
Dont have to worry about losing the focus....
though do have problems you CANT leave it behind.
with a kind GM... might allow a specially designed foci to be something either form could carry.
(small ring / hair clip / feather clip / etc).
Or worst case... suck up a .1 essence loss and get a fingertip compartment.
get foci small enough to fit inside.
If the food you eat doesnt kill you when you suddenly go from human sized to raven sized, it is very clear that thing completely contained within your body ARE transferred (otherwise the 16oz steak would kill you as it erupted from the raven stomach)...
The fingertip compartment is a part of you... what it contains will be aborbed by the spell.
(as a slightly messier and more painful... just swallow the focus before shifting...)
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