So I just can't get my hands on a the overwhelming bulk of shadowrun source material. There are a few top notch cashes online, but they aren't organize at all. The Sixth World wiki has a good structure, but is painfully shallow. Being new myself I'm not even sure what I don't know about eds 1-3 and the novels. Is there any chance of some sort of (semi) official compendium. Might a champion arise from the community to write micro reviews of the old books in terms of their relevance to a fourth ed game? Is anyone bribable? or are the whelps doomed to wonder the Sixth Word Wiki dreaming of what it could be...
Full Version: Bring the new comers up to speed
Well I'm bribeable, but I don't think you have anything I want. *shrug*
Are you looking for something along the lines of a newbie's guide, like Rules to Run By? Or a guide of what books to get and read (such as NewSeattle or 2XS)? Or are you looking for someone to recap the pertinent part of the last 20 years, since that is in the font of the BBB .... more or less?
Are you looking for something along the lines of a newbie's guide, like Rules to Run By? Or a guide of what books to get and read (such as NewSeattle or 2XS)? Or are you looking for someone to recap the pertinent part of the last 20 years, since that is in the font of the BBB .... more or less?
You don't really need to know everything about previous editions to enjoy SR 4. The corebook contains everything you need to start playing, and the supplements have all the extra rules you might need. That's generally true of the other editions (i.e, if you play SR3, you don't really need stuff from SR2 or 1).
Each edition assumes the metaplot from previous ones is in the past, and makes it so you don't need those past books to play, either. They can be fun to read if you're into that sort of thing, but if any "past" knowledge is required for a "modern" book, the "modern" book will have everything you need to know.
Each edition assumes the metaplot from previous ones is in the past, and makes it so you don't need those past books to play, either. They can be fun to read if you're into that sort of thing, but if any "past" knowledge is required for a "modern" book, the "modern" book will have everything you need to know.
I think he's more interested in source material than rules. Things like the Sprawl Survival Guide or Shadows of North America, of which 4th Edition doesn't "officially" have very much of even if most of the content is compatible. For example, how is anyone who only has the 4th Edition books supposed to know much of anything about Ehran or Harlequinn? What is all this Dunkelzahn's Will malarky the core book briefly mentions? Universal Brotherhood? etc.
I dunno looking at some of the stuff in the 4th ed book a lot of it does assume familiarity with previous editions. Fastjack talking about Captain Chaos' death in the BBB, referances to Hatchetman in the cyberzombie section of Augmented and a few others. None of it is "nessesary" but the fluff would make a lot more sense if there was some way that new players could find out about it.
Maby if Catalyst were to publish a PDF of some of the best "fluff" of previous editions. Just short stories, shadowtalk, ect with no game stats or anything like that. Package it up call it "Legends from the Shadows" or something and sell it for 15-20 bucks. A lot of the old sourcebooks are available on PDF anyhow so collecting it together wouldn't be a huge amount of work. Heck I'd buy it just to have that stuff in one place. The persistant and living story is part of what makes Shadowrun great but I can see how new players would have a tough time getting their heads around it.
Most DS'rs have been with the game for several editions now so a lot of it is second nature to us, but when I think about it from the perspective of someone new to the game with no one to explain the details to them or hand them a stack of old sourcebooks to read I can see how some people might find it frustrating.
If I were to plug my nominations for inclusion with the book I'd suggest off the top of my head:
1) Hatchetman's story (probably one of the best peices of fiction to ever appear in a sourcebook)
2) The rules for Urban Brawl
3) And so it Came to Pass from 1st 2nd and 3rd edition.
4) at least something about the corp war that killed Fuchi
5) Chicago
6) the Archology
7) Dunkelzahn, his death and his will
Maby if Catalyst were to publish a PDF of some of the best "fluff" of previous editions. Just short stories, shadowtalk, ect with no game stats or anything like that. Package it up call it "Legends from the Shadows" or something and sell it for 15-20 bucks. A lot of the old sourcebooks are available on PDF anyhow so collecting it together wouldn't be a huge amount of work. Heck I'd buy it just to have that stuff in one place. The persistant and living story is part of what makes Shadowrun great but I can see how new players would have a tough time getting their heads around it.
Most DS'rs have been with the game for several editions now so a lot of it is second nature to us, but when I think about it from the perspective of someone new to the game with no one to explain the details to them or hand them a stack of old sourcebooks to read I can see how some people might find it frustrating.
If I were to plug my nominations for inclusion with the book I'd suggest off the top of my head:
1) Hatchetman's story (probably one of the best peices of fiction to ever appear in a sourcebook)
2) The rules for Urban Brawl
3) And so it Came to Pass from 1st 2nd and 3rd edition.
4) at least something about the corp war that killed Fuchi
5) Chicago
6) the Archology
7) Dunkelzahn, his death and his will
Stuff about Morgan and Megaera, which got nothing more than a cameo appearance in the history section.9) Universal Brotherhood
10) Horrors
11) Harlequinn and friends(/enemies/rivals/whatever circumstance dictates)
12) Thor Shot platforms
13) Omega Orders
14) More on HMMVV (or whatever that damn virus is called)
15) What caused Crash 1.0?
And surely more I don't know about, being a newcomer myself. I could definitely go for something like this, official or unofficial.
The doctor got my request right. And Bira is right as well SR4 is totally playable and throughly enjoyable.
The bits of setting I feel like I'm most missing are:
1) Pop culture. I think the core rules mentions 2 pop icons and 1 video game. The fluff talks about how omnipresent the monoculture is, and I'd like to run at least a recognizable version of it, if not a cannon version.
2) The corps. So for its Renraku does computers and made the AIs, Ares does guns and space, Azzis are in some bad hoodoo, Seader-Krupp is really really big and has a dragon. I'd like to see the mega corps get a direct and superficial treatment like the magical organizations in street magic. I know they are all corps, but I'd like to give the corps at least a few notes of canonical flavor.
3) This is more general, but 5-10 page lexicon would absolutely rule. For example I don't need explicit rules for Urban Brawl, but I didn't even know it was organized into a League until a magical organization listed League membership as a requirement to join! Does it look like Carwars style Area fight, or underground boxing. Is magic allowed? Is it a fight to the death or is it just REALLY full contact football? If there were even just 20 words published or referenced somewhere a 4th EDer would find it I could put it into my game. I get the feeling that there are 20 years of good ideas that could be made playable with a similarly tinny write up.
I'm coming to shadow run from Whitewolf, GURPs, and D&D. Fun games all, but my first move as a GM was to gut the setting because they all sucked/weren't there at all. And the ironny for me now is that I'm involved in a game with an deep rich setting I actively enjoy, but its just hard to get all.
I hope I'm not coming across as whinny, the community is great and the publish material is fun, playable and well supported.
The bits of setting I feel like I'm most missing are:
1) Pop culture. I think the core rules mentions 2 pop icons and 1 video game. The fluff talks about how omnipresent the monoculture is, and I'd like to run at least a recognizable version of it, if not a cannon version.
2) The corps. So for its Renraku does computers and made the AIs, Ares does guns and space, Azzis are in some bad hoodoo, Seader-Krupp is really really big and has a dragon. I'd like to see the mega corps get a direct and superficial treatment like the magical organizations in street magic. I know they are all corps, but I'd like to give the corps at least a few notes of canonical flavor.
3) This is more general, but 5-10 page lexicon would absolutely rule. For example I don't need explicit rules for Urban Brawl, but I didn't even know it was organized into a League until a magical organization listed League membership as a requirement to join! Does it look like Carwars style Area fight, or underground boxing. Is magic allowed? Is it a fight to the death or is it just REALLY full contact football? If there were even just 20 words published or referenced somewhere a 4th EDer would find it I could put it into my game. I get the feeling that there are 20 years of good ideas that could be made playable with a similarly tinny write up.
I'm coming to shadow run from Whitewolf, GURPs, and D&D. Fun games all, but my first move as a GM was to gut the setting because they all sucked/weren't there at all. And the ironny for me now is that I'm involved in a game with an deep rich setting I actively enjoy, but its just hard to get all.
I hope I'm not coming across as whinny, the community is great and the publish material is fun, playable and well supported.
1) Your best bet here is the book Sprawl Survival Guide. It's a SR3 book, but there's very few rules and mostly information about pop culture.
2) There will be a book in SR4 called Corporate Enclaves which will discuss the current state of affairs with respect to the world's megacorporations. I think it's hopefully going to be released this year, but I'll leave it to the powers that be to correct me if I'm wrong. Until then, you're best bet is to get as much information from SR4, Aug, and Street Magic. You could try to go back and find the old books about corporations (e.g., Corporate Shadowfiles, Corporate Download, etc.).
--
If you want more focused information, I would also suggest the following books:
Those all have good setting information, the first three about the areas mentioned, System Failure dealing with the Crash 2.0 and the fallout therefrom, DotSW is relatively self-explanitory, and YotC covers information about Changelings and other events of 2061.
2) There will be a book in SR4 called Corporate Enclaves which will discuss the current state of affairs with respect to the world's megacorporations. I think it's hopefully going to be released this year, but I'll leave it to the powers that be to correct me if I'm wrong. Until then, you're best bet is to get as much information from SR4, Aug, and Street Magic. You could try to go back and find the old books about corporations (e.g., Corporate Shadowfiles, Corporate Download, etc.).
--
If you want more focused information, I would also suggest the following books:
- Shadows of North America
- Shadows of Europe
- Shadows of Asia
- System Failure
- Dragons of the Sixth World
- Year of the Comet
Those all have good setting information, the first three about the areas mentioned, System Failure dealing with the Crash 2.0 and the fallout therefrom, DotSW is relatively self-explanitory, and YotC covers information about Changelings and other events of 2061.
I'd also recommend Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life. It's an old 2nd ed SB but it has literally a metric ton of information about day to day life. To quote the back:
"Grab the kids! Hide the wife! The Neo-Anarchists are back! This time, those fun-loving anarchists speak out on everything from transorbital travel and security systems to coffin motels and fast food. Nothing is sacred, profanity reigns, and there's more data than you can shake a chip at."
"Grab the kids! Hide the wife! The Neo-Anarchists are back! This time, those fun-loving anarchists speak out on everything from transorbital travel and security systems to coffin motels and fast food. Nothing is sacred, profanity reigns, and there's more data than you can shake a chip at."
I often think of the Sprawl Survival Guide as the SR3 equivalent and update to the Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life, so you might be able to get away with one or the other.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| 2) There will be a book in SR4 called Corporate Enclaves which will discuss the current state of affairs with respect to the world's megacorporations. I think it's hopefully going to be released this year, but I'll leave it to the powers that be to correct me if I'm wrong. Until then, you're best bet is to get as much information from SR4, Aug, and Street Magic. You could try to go back and find the old books about corporations (e.g., Corporate Shadowfiles, Corporate Download, etc.). |
Corporate Enclaves is not a book about corporations in the way that Corporate Shadowfiles and Corporate Download was; it's a book about cities that are largely or wholly corporate controlled.
Oh! Well, then. Ignore everything I said under #2.
Chicago and the Archology aer coved enough to run them, especially after runner's haven. The Dunkelzhan's Will section on Ancient files as an amazing resource. Likewise the SR/ED horror cross reference is simply staggering. I think those 4 are coved enough to be usable. But I just have to ask about the Omega Orders...
Ah! The Omega Order...
Basically, the Corporate Court keeps intercorporate warfare from completely trashing the global economy. They do this by authorizing a certain amount of retaliation against a given corp that's being too much of a pain in the ass by another (usually a rival) corp. An Omega Order, hypothetically, allows completely unchecked aggression against a single target by any megacorp. In other words, it's open season. If Ares, Saeder-Krupp, and MCT all wanted to use a limited nuclear exchange to take out the target corp's assets, that would be cool. More details in Corporate Shadowfiles.
The CC has never issued an Omega Order, but they came really close in the early days of Aztlan/Aztechnology, which has come to be known as the Veracruz Incident. Check Aztlan for more info.
Basically, the Corporate Court keeps intercorporate warfare from completely trashing the global economy. They do this by authorizing a certain amount of retaliation against a given corp that's being too much of a pain in the ass by another (usually a rival) corp. An Omega Order, hypothetically, allows completely unchecked aggression against a single target by any megacorp. In other words, it's open season. If Ares, Saeder-Krupp, and MCT all wanted to use a limited nuclear exchange to take out the target corp's assets, that would be cool. More details in Corporate Shadowfiles.
The CC has never issued an Omega Order, but they came really close in the early days of Aztlan/Aztechnology, which has come to be known as the Veracruz Incident. Check Aztlan for more info.
Thought you might poke your head in... thnx
Well, luckily, Dumpshock is FILLED with people who're happy to fill you in on anything that you need.
There's only so much room in the core book, so, if it was a choice between a rule on grenades and a section on Aztechnology's new brand of air freshener, well...
There's only so much room in the core book, so, if it was a choice between a rule on grenades and a section on Aztechnology's new brand of air freshener, well...
My group pretty much plays it like this:
If we have the book and know the history or rule, can cite it or find it, we run with it.
Pure and simple. Don't beat yourself up because you imagined a government agency that is supersceded by a sourcebook, just go with it, describe it as you have, and stick a post-it note in the book with a little tag something like "already made my own". Source books, Canonical references, locations, rules and maps are made to be revised, changed and broken. A soucebook may be $30, but your imagination is priceless.
If we have the book and know the history or rule, can cite it or find it, we run with it.
Pure and simple. Don't beat yourself up because you imagined a government agency that is supersceded by a sourcebook, just go with it, describe it as you have, and stick a post-it note in the book with a little tag something like "already made my own". Source books, Canonical references, locations, rules and maps are made to be revised, changed and broken. A soucebook may be $30, but your imagination is priceless.
If you're looking for more information on the corporations, Corporate Download from 3rd ed is a good place to start; just make sure to cross-reference it with the 4th ed corporate information to bring the 'landscape' up to date before you start running with it.
threats 2 may be worth looking into if you're really curious what went down with Cross Applied Technologies (CATco)
I think both are even still in-print, although once the current runs are out I doubt they'll reprint them.
threats 2 may be worth looking into if you're really curious what went down with Cross Applied Technologies (CATco)
I think both are even still in-print, although once the current runs are out I doubt they'll reprint them.
It should be noted that if you're going to be at GenCon, the booth usually has old products for sale. I don't know if their discounted or not, but it's a place to look.
@Ancient History: The Sixth World Wiki claims Art Dankwalther had an omega order issued against him. Any comment/clarification about you "Never issued" line?
An Omega Order is issued against a corporation not an individual, I would suspect.
The more I read these forums, the more it feel like Shadowland.
Honestly, if you're looking to bring yourself up to speed and haven't been with SR since 1st edition there are a couple of sure fire things you can do.
1. Hit the used or bargain section at the local games store. There was good stuff in every book, buy them all.
2. Read the forums and figure out what books you need to target to learn about that really interesting sounding thing you heard.
3. When you do learn somethign cool, update the Sixth World Wiki. I'm guilty of keeping my knowledge to myself. but can you imagine how cool that would be to have it all right there?
4. And this is important, listen to everything Ancient Files has to say
If you aren't so worried about legality or morality look around online. I happen to know for a fact that nearly every SR book is available online in pdf by some soul who is putting them together as a labor of love. In exchange though I suggest you make sure every one of your friends buys every SR 4 book that comes out so that everyone can enjoy this game in the future and our shadowy new masters at Catalyst Game Systems can continue to eat and do this for a living (the lucky bastards).
Honestly, if you're looking to bring yourself up to speed and haven't been with SR since 1st edition there are a couple of sure fire things you can do.
1. Hit the used or bargain section at the local games store. There was good stuff in every book, buy them all.
2. Read the forums and figure out what books you need to target to learn about that really interesting sounding thing you heard.
3. When you do learn somethign cool, update the Sixth World Wiki. I'm guilty of keeping my knowledge to myself. but can you imagine how cool that would be to have it all right there?
4. And this is important, listen to everything Ancient Files has to say
If you aren't so worried about legality or morality look around online. I happen to know for a fact that nearly every SR book is available online in pdf by some soul who is putting them together as a labor of love. In exchange though I suggest you make sure every one of your friends buys every SR 4 book that comes out so that everyone can enjoy this game in the future and our shadowy new masters at Catalyst Game Systems can continue to eat and do this for a living (the lucky bastards).
| QUOTE (Begby) |
| My group pretty much plays it like this: If we have the book and know the history or rule, can cite it or find it, we run with it. Pure and simple. Don't beat yourself up because you imagined a government agency that is supersceded by a sourcebook, just go with it, describe it as you have, and stick a post-it note in the book with a little tag something like "already made my own". Source books, Canonical references, locations, rules and maps are made to be revised, changed and broken. A soucebook may be $30, but your imagination is priceless. |
QFT
Otakusensei
| QUOTE |
| In exchange though I suggest you make sure every one of your friends buys every SR 4 book that comes out |
I'm all ready pretty close that that.
| QUOTE |
| When you do learn somethign cool, update the Sixth World Wiki. I'm guilty of keeping my knowledge to myself. but can you imagine how cool that would be to have it all right there? |
So I just wrote Omega Order I shamelessly paraphrase Ancient History in slightly more formal Language. What do you think?
Updated it and cleaned up some random spelling/phrasing. The only meaty changes were the addition of information on the corporate court's 'secret accords' that may grant an Omega Order, and the following clarification:
an omega order is against any corporation, not just a mega.
an omega order is against any corporation, not just a mega.
Awesome, now just imagine if we all decent onto the wiki and dump our knowledge?
There's a limit to what can be posted before 'infringements' start to occur.
Besides, that's why we have Dumpshock.
Besides, that's why we have Dumpshock.
What's the official word on out of print material? Under copy right law there is a time limit before they become public domain, but I don't know how that works with a corporation and derivative works.
I assume Catalyst now owns the rights to the back catalog of SR material, and they would then hold the right to republish and resell the older material. I wonder though if they would be willing to turn that beloved material over to the fans. Maybe just the stuff from SR1 and SR 2. Make the books and information public domain so we can compile them into a cohesive online narrative. A massive and canon knowledge base of past Sr material help bouy and support new player interested in jumping in on the cutting edge of Shadowrun.
We can see here that it isn't just a bunch of old fat beards hanging out online talking about the good old days. There is real interest in this stuff. Whether Catalyst wants to turn a profit on that or focus on the future is up to them, butc I can think of no better stewards for this information than the people who have kept it alive this long.
Wouldn't it be nice?
I assume Catalyst now owns the rights to the back catalog of SR material, and they would then hold the right to republish and resell the older material. I wonder though if they would be willing to turn that beloved material over to the fans. Maybe just the stuff from SR1 and SR 2. Make the books and information public domain so we can compile them into a cohesive online narrative. A massive and canon knowledge base of past Sr material help bouy and support new player interested in jumping in on the cutting edge of Shadowrun.
We can see here that it isn't just a bunch of old fat beards hanging out online talking about the good old days. There is real interest in this stuff. Whether Catalyst wants to turn a profit on that or focus on the future is up to them, butc I can think of no better stewards for this information than the people who have kept it alive this long.
Wouldn't it be nice?
| QUOTE |
| We can see here that it isn't just a bunch of old fat beards hanging out online talking about the good old days |
Well that's not true. There is Fortune, and I've got a beard !
| QUOTE |
| I assume Catalyst now owns the rights to the back catalog of SR material, and they would then hold the right to republish and resell the older material |
There was a work in progres to put the old SR3 books up as pdf. I can only assume they'd like to continue that in the future. I'm unsure about FASA products though.
1) Thanks for the clean-up on the Omega-Order wiki.
2) I'd love to see th old material open sourced. If if the current IP holders did put the 3e material on line I hope they price the .pdfs according to the value of their 4e relevant fluff.
3) Just another question. What calender years do the editions model?
2) I'd love to see th old material open sourced. If if the current IP holders did put the 3e material on line I hope they price the .pdfs according to the value of their 4e relevant fluff.
3) Just another question. What calender years do the editions model?
Off the top of my head, I think it was roughly five year intervals.
1st Edition: 2050-2055
2nd Edition: 2055-2060
3rd Edition: 2060-2065
4th Edition: 2070-
1st Edition: 2050-2055
2nd Edition: 2055-2060
3rd Edition: 2060-2065
4th Edition: 2070-
| QUOTE (otakusensei) |
| I assume Catalyst now owns the rights to the back catalog of SR material, and they would then hold the right to republish and resell the older material. I wonder though if they would be willing to turn that beloved material over to the fans. Maybe just the stuff from SR1 and SR 2. Make the books and information public domain so we can compile them into a cohesive online narrative. A massive and canon knowledge base of past Sr material help bouy and support new player interested in jumping in on the cutting edge of Shadowrun. |
WizKids owns the Shadowrun IP, and Catalyst will be continuing to release those products as inexpensive ebooks. There are no plans to make any part of the Shadowrun IP public domain.
| QUOTE |
| 1st Edition: 2050-2055 2nd Edition: 2055-2060 3rd Edition: 2060-2065 4th Edition: 2070- |
Close, but not quite.
2049-2053
2053-2060
2060-2065
2070+
I'm a little fuzzy on the -2060 date for 2nd. I wanna say it actually terminated aroun 2057 or 2058, but I have no hard refs for that.
Actually 1st and 2nd both started their settings in 2050, but otherwise you're pretty much on the money as far as timeframes go.
Actually, Adarael is almost correct. As implied by the original SSC, 1s6 begins in late '49. SR2 specifically states '52 as a start date.
| QUOTE |
| WizKids owns the Shadowrun IP, and Catalyst will be continuing to release those products as inexpensive ebooks. There are no plans to make any part of the Shadowrun IP public domain. |
Ok, that clarifies it. What about republishing older material, possibly in a new more condensed form? Sort a history textbook for SR? Maybe as part of a plot book that heavily or directly references some past events? Do you know how Wizkids feels about the wiki and adding published information?
What about that German plot / background type book that was being planned a little while ago? Did that ever see fruition, or was the whole idea scrapped?
| QUOTE |
| What about republishing older material, possibly in a new more condensed form? Sort a history textbook for SR? Maybe as part of a plot book that heavily or directly references some past events? |
Catalyst has announced no such product, so I can't speak about the potential or lack of potential such a product would have.
| QUOTE |
| Do you know how Wizkids feels about the wiki and adding published information? |
The Sixth World Wiki was designed to condense material, bring together "hidden" tidbits from multiple books, and provide references in ways that do not infringe on WizKids' IP; in other word, adding wide swatches of published-text is frowned upon.
A compendium isn't a bad idea.
Oh and shadowrun isn't complete without Nerps!
Oh and shadowrun isn't complete without Nerps!
Hey all. This thread seems to have lots of responsive, knowledgeable, old timers I'll try my luck with yet another question.
A quote on another page:
A quote on another page:
| QUOTE |
| Send them down to LA for some ruined urban areas, with lots of submerged rooms and aquatic monsters. |
leads me to ask what the hell happened to LA? Did I just miss this city getting sacked?
| QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Aug 12 2007, 10:33 AM) | ||
| Hey all. This thread seems to have lots of responsive, knowledgeable, old timers I'll try my luck with yet another question. A quote on another page:
leads me to ask what the hell happened to LA? Did I just miss this city getting sacked? |
You missed it, but not by much. The references are in Street Magic, pg. 118. I don't want to quote the whole thing here as it's pretty long, but the gist of it is that there were two massive earthquakes in California in 2069. Not only did big chunks of the city get cracked wide open, but "large portions" of the californian coastline sank, including "substantial sections of Los Angeles and San Diego." These parts of the city apparently collapsed into a large tunnel network that wasn't so much undiscovered as wasn't actually there before! These sink-holes flooded to a greater or lesser extent as the Pacific Ocean moved in.
So now you have a big pieces of a modern city submerged to various degrees and collapsed into the midst of a maybe millenia old underground ruin. My guess is a kaer that finally reappeared and opened up when the ancient magics detected the mana had risen sufficiently. Of course it's long since abandoned and everyone inside it dead... probably.
Khadim's recipe for a frenzied Shadowrun one-shot is watch all the scene in Aliens 4 where they're making their way through the flooded sections of the station, crack open the never before used list of aquatic critters and the second edition Shark Totem that no-one ever wanted and send the team to LA to retrieve The Mysterious Artifact.
Oh, and for added "role-playing experience," any time a PC is rolling extended swim tests to get through the underwater room to the other side, don't let the player breath until he reaches the threshold.
-K.
EDIT: Count another vote for the Shadowrun history book, please. We need one, it would satisfy people's need for Shadowtalk for the next twenty years and if it were well written, with an eye to the new fourth edition flavour, it could explain away or justify a lot of the unrealistic and sillier parts of Shadowrun cannon.
Well it was mostly a dump to begin with in SR (plush walled enclaves surrounded by slums), then in '61 an earthquake bought the walls down, and the PCC annexed it at the locals request (sorta). Then in about '68 another quake happened that collapased a series of tunnels that had appeared underneath LA due to an alchera (materialising astral construct. Cue flooding and bitching from lots of people on this forum. Basically LA know has more coastline, and an ancient (4th age) mostly flooding underground cty below it.
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