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Luke Hardison
I had a character the other night take his souped up SUV through a LS blockade at 90mpt last night, and between all the mods, APPS, roll bars, crash cage, etc, he wound up seriously wounded even though he should by all means died outright (never hit anything but the accelerator, wound up pulling the trigger on a Predator on his own head before LoneStar even got close to his vehicle).

I'm wondering, do most GM's allow full use of Roll Bars and Crash Cages simultaneously? I didn't want to stop the whole game while I called BS on that stacking with a character who was apparently suicidal anyway, but it would have led to the guy rolling almost 30 dice for the test (he was a big cybered troll, defaulting for the test).

*I wound up using something similar to the armor stacking rules, with the lower rated system functioning at half value for the purposes of the test when he threw his tantrum about the system*

Any thoughts?
Neither he nor the vehicle got more than 1 success?

Check BBB, p 147.

I don't have Rigger Revised but R3 just gives them more dice to resist damage, it isn't reducing TNs like armor does. Each system could be installed without hindering the other. I would let them use both.
Austere Emancipator
What tisoz said. The rules don't say that they are mutually exclusive, and they affect dice, not TNs.

I wouldn't allow both in my games, however, because I cannot see how they would work together IRL. They are both methods of making the area around the people inside the vehicle rigid, so that the passengers are not crushed. If a vehicle already had a crash cage (like racing and stung cars do), I can't see there being any additional advantage from putting in roll bars (like the ones you see on jeeps). If someone has RL data that points otherwise, I'm listening.

On the other hand, with APPS and everything, it's not that unbelievable that the cybered troll wouldn't get more than a Serious wound. After all, race drivers hit things at speeds greater than that and manage not to die. Granted, the things they hit are generally at small angles (outer edge of a curve) or not completely rigid and sudden (decelerating over a lawn/sand/dirt area and hitting a wall of tires). On the other hand, a SUV with all the mentioned mods would probably be quite a lot safer to crash into things with than a formula or indy car.
Luke Hardison
Let me be more specific, it wasn't the damage that was disturbing, it was the dice that wound up being rolled for the test, in addition to the way it didn't seem realistic to use both systems IRL. He was defaulting to reaction (which meant I think 13), plus one for Enhanced Articulation Bioware, then the 5 and 3 from the systems ... that brings us to 22 dice. I'm missing something in there, because it was more than that, maybe there was some karma involved instead .....
Austere Emancipator
Crash cages or roll bars do not affect the amount of dice rolled for the Crash test, but the Damage Resistance test for the passengers. Also, you haven't got the bonus dice amounts for the systems right, they're +6 for CG and +3 for RB.
QUOTE (Luke Hardison)
I'm wondering, do most GM's allow full use of Roll Bars and Crash Cages simultaneously?

I think I would.

As I recall, a "crash cage" is a specific kind of protection for a single seat: bars, hydraulic shocks, etc. Rollbars form a further cage around the passenger cabin. Assuming I'm recalling the definition of "crash cage" correctly, I see no reason why you can't have a big cage protecting a smaller cage.

But I don't have car crashes often enough to know the rules well or offhand.
Austere Emancipator
Roll bars are described as exactly the kind of arcs you see on top of jeeps. Crash cages are described as a "padded, hydraulically cushioned passenger cabin and seating".

So no, the crash cage is not for a single seat, but it doesn't actually say anything about adding rigidity to the vehicle, either. But the name of the system does imply the kind of bar structure that you see on racing and stunt cars. So, umm, I can't say anything definite other than that, by canon, they do stack (because it does not discretely say anywhere that they don't). House rule however you want it if you want to.

Time for a poll? Not many people would vote though.
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Roll bars are described as exactly the kind of arcs you see on top of jeeps. Crash cages are described as a "padded, hydraulically cushioned passenger cabin and seating".

Ahhhh. I didn't recall the "cabin" part.

So, nope, I wouldn't stack'em in that case.
I'd let 'em stack. In any crash where it matters, I doubt a few extra dice is going to matter much.
A crash cage is in conjuction with roll bars. Just like in real life, ever look at a Stock Car? Thats what's in it. a Crash Cage and Roll Bars.
Austere Emancipator
But the thing is, I think that's just a crash cage. And there's no way to prove either way.
Ol' Scratch
A crash cage is in conjuction with roll bars. Just like in real life, ever look at a Stock Car? Thats what's in it. a Crash Cage and Roll Bars.

Exactly. The Crash Cage is the hydraullics and padding for the cabin, whereas the Roll Bars are the actual structural reinforcement of the vehicle.

For confirmation on this, note that a Crash Cage cannot be used in place of Roll Bars for vehicle mounts on the roof, nor do they remove the double Damage Resistance penalty in a convertible.
Austere Emancipator
Actually, that makes sense. Righty-o, putting Roll Bars back into all aircraft and cars I've designed...

[Edit]W00t! I forgot it's totally free in every respect to put Roll Bars into any vehicle in the design stage. So in fact I'll put in Roll Bars into EVERY [canon] vehicle I'll ever design that might have people in it at any time.[/Edit]

[Edit #2]I still won't allow them to stack in my games though, and additionally will make Roll Bars weigh something and take space, allow ring mounts to be put on civvy vehicles with crash cages and make CG remove the x2 DR TN penalty of convertibles. What can I say...[/Edit]
Sorry I didn't explain that better. My experience with this comes from the LVMPD driver training vehicles I have to use every 3 years. They are fully reinforced with a professional Roll Cage, and additionally have harnesses and additional saftey equipment.

You can have roll bars without a crash cage, for example the roll bar installed in some utility pcikups. and you can have a crash cage wihtout a roll bar, but its pretty pointless. The crash cage adds a cushioned, hydraulic seating comaprtment inside the reinforced roll cage. Two dofferent approaches to the same issue.

A roll cage adds to a vehicles rigidity exclusively, the vehicle will nto deform and crush the passenger. The Crash cage, like APPS, protects and pads the user compartment to prevent harm.
Austere Emancipator
Then are there RL vehicles that have a padded, hydraulically cushioned passenger cabin and seating, but no extra rigid bars around that structure at all? I can see that happening with just the seats, but with a padded and hydraulically cushioned cabin as well... But if you say that kind of vehicles exist, I'll take your word for it and simply cut the bonuses from CG in half, while making RB weigh something and take space.
I don't know that there is. I said it could be done but would be pointless. I just assume that all vehicles that have a crash cage have Roll bars, but not all vehicles that have roll bars have a crash cage.
Austere Emancipator
Then it's just a question of how survivable you want crashes to be... Because, based on RL observation, it could then still be argued that a CG includes some sort of RBs.

Okay, I'll just shut up about this issue now, it's quite obvious I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion anymore. wink.gif
With enough protective equipment crashes can be very very survivable, look at NASCAR. Impressive.
Talia Invierno
I think I can image this, but I don't know for certain: can you install a roll bar on a motorcycle?
Ol' Scratch
We have a human driver with a generous Body of 6. He gets in a head-on crash going at a Speed of 50 with another vehicle going at a Speed of 50. That's a 10S effect. Even with Roll Bars and a Crash Cage he throws 15 dice and I doubt if he gets 6 successes (I rolled ten times using an online dice roller, and the most successes was 3), so he takes a Moderate wound from it. Which is pretty severe from what is otherwise a tame, average-situation crash in a vehicle designed to take a shitload of abuse in such situations.

If he had APPS, sure, he'd have been able to make it out without much of a problem (averaged 5 successes against 5S, though the best one included 8 successes). But again, that's just a "simple" head-on collision at a tame Speed of 50.

Say the same character is in a break-neck chase scene, roaring down the highway at a Speed of 200 when he slams into a railing. He now has a 20D wound to absorb (10D even with APPS), using only 15 dice. He's going to be left hurting in both cases (Deadly wound without APPS and Serious without it).

Note that I don't deal with these rules very often and I'm going on memory (Power is 1/10th the Speed of the crash and Damage Level is based upon Speed as well). But assuming I'm at least close to being right, nope, I don't see +9 dice being that horrible of a benefit. If they gave a TN bonus, that'd be a different story. But bonus dice are rarely game breaking.

But then again if you're allowing players to design min/maxed vehicles willy nilly from scratch (where Roll Bars cost nothing (as opposed to 2,000 nuyen) and whatnot, or even worse just tack 'em onto all vehicles simply because it is a free design feature... well, I dunno what to say to that.
Austere Emancipator
Speed 50 vs speed 50 = 120km/h collision. The same as if you slammed the NASCAR head on to a concrete wall at 75mph. I wouldn't call that "tame". And I can't think of a situation where someone had crashed any vehicle into a rigid object at 240km/h (149mph) and walked away. That kind of thing usually includes bits of the vehicle gutting onlookers. Also, I'm quite certain that the -1 DL from having your seatbelt is cumulative with all the other mods, so the chars in the situations would take 1 DL less damage. Speed 200 against a wall with APPS+CG+RB, Body 4, will still average S, and you'd need 12 Body dice for the DR test to get down to M on average.

But I'm quite willing to admit that APPS+CG+RB certainly are not game breaking. I'm sure that in 60 years, cars will be extremely safe for crashing into things with, looking at the current development. I suppose that might be reflected in the fact that, by canon, every car in the world that's not mentioned in the books would have RBs, and all luxury cars would have CG and APPS too.

I wasn't trying to imply that I would let my players put RBs on their vehicles for free. Like I said, I won't even let myself do that for free in the design phase of vehicles meant to be used in my games. But, by canon, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever not to put them on every manned vehicle, which makes it quite unbelievable that every car in the books don't have them already. But I guess that's not the biggest flaw in R3.
Roll bar+Seat belt+ APPS+ Crash cage + Trauma Dampener + Platelet factory + 300Km/h + Cybertroll + standard armor( Armored Jacket5/3 and Motorcycle helmet 0/+2 and bioware armor) + One Ultrareinforced wall = One pretty god dammed spectacular crash and a one scuffed up troll walking away from it.

If you haven't tried it I suggest it!
Ol' Scratch
I considered it a "tame" crash in that it's a relatively common occurance; two vehicles going at relatively slow speeds (just over 35mph) in a head-on collision. And even in that situation, in a vehicle custom built to handle crashes, the tough Body 6 character still suffered a Moderate wound even with those +9 dice.

Which is why I then gave a more practical example at high speed into an obstacle, where the character takes a Deadly wound without APPS and a Serious one even with it. And that was only going at a Speed of 200; heaven forbid he was a stupid character in something like a Eurocar Westwind with Nitrous Oxide 6 and Engine Customization while going at around 3-400m/s (225-300mph).

Roll Bars and Crash Cages are just a luck enhancers. APPS is where the "real" benefit applies... so I honestly don't see why allowing, as written, +3 dice is a horrible problem. When it really matters, it doesn't help that much. When it doesn't, it's just wasted dice. You're rarely going to hit that sweet spot where the +3 extra dice have a noticable impact.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
so I honestly don't see why allowing, as written, +3 dice is a horrible problem.

Well then we agree on this, since I don't see why the +3 dice would be a problem either. I'm sorry if at some point it seemed like I did.
Ol' Scratch
On principle I agree that Roll Bars should have at least some Design Point cost. Even if it's only 2,000 nuyen as a customization feature, giving it 10 DP would make a bit of sense.

But then again you can also add in all the entry points you want during design for no cost, and you can add in all the extra fuel you like (Gas, Diesel, and Jet) until you run out of CF yet not add a single kilogram to the Load of the vehicle while adding just a little extra juice to a battery has the exact opposite effect... so go figure. smile.gif
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