Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Intiative Passes
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
BattleJester
I guess my biggest gripe with initiative passes is the rate of fire of guns increases the more initiative passes you have. Whether I have one initiative pass or four of them, my gun (especially if it's fully automatic) can only fire so fast.

Also, if you are attacked by someone with more initiative passes, you still are able to dodge. True, you get one less die per defense you make, but still, you can get out of the way. But it seems that it should be easier to attack and defend the more initiative passes you have as you are experiencing the world in slow motion.

Maybe I'm seeing it in the wrong light. Please enlighten me if you can.
toturi
You do not keep squeezing the trigger as fast as you can. It is assumed that you can squeeze the trigger faster than you can target acquire and sight.
Ol' Scratch
The game assumes you're not just holding the trigger and emptying your clip, even with the Suppressive Fire rules. The rate of fire of a weapon never comes up because it's assumed runners never try to waste their ammo like that.
l33tpenguin
The cyclic rate for the M16 is around 800 rounds/minute or 40 rounds/combat turn (3 seconds)
The cyclic rate for the AK-47 is around 600 rounds/minute or 30 rounds/combat turn
The cyclic rate for the Mac-10 is around 1100 rounds/minute or 55 rounds/combat turn
The M-249 SAW is rated at just under 1000 rounds/minute or around 50 rounds/combat turn

Pistols are classified as "Semi-Automatic" though they are cabable of sustaining rates of 900+ when modified for fully automatic fire. So pistols are mearly limited to how fast you can pull the trigger

What limits a weapon is how fast you can aquire a target. When you are ready to pull the trigger again, it will be ready to fire another round.
PlatonicPimp
Also, having more initiative passes DOES make it easier to defend. At least, it does against others with multiple IP.

That -1 to dodge per attack is nothing to sneeze at. It's effects are hella accumulative. Look at it like this: Mr. Joe sec guard has a reaction of 3, a dodge of 3, and 1 IP. Sammy the Sammie has a dice pool of 8 for his pistol, and 3 IP. (more a gutter punk than a prime runner, but he's knocking over a Kong-Walmart, what do you expect?)

Joe sec guard is more interested in saving his bacon than stopping Sammy, so he goeson full dodge. Sammy, however, was once bitten by a security guard and is unwilling to live and let live. He opens fire. On his first IP, he gats 2 shots. The first time, Joe gets his full dodge of 6 against Sammy's 8. Next shot, Sammy has a -1 recoil (cheap gun), and Joe has -1 for the second attack. 5 against 7. So far so good.

Second IP, Sammy goes again. This time it's 8 dice against Joe's rapidly diminshing dodge pool of 4. The second round is 7 Verse 3.

Third IP, if Joe is still alive, he won't be. Sammy opens up with a wide burst, reducing Joes pool by 2. Sammy in only rolling 6 dice this attack, but joe no longer has any dodge pool at all.

Now, if Joe had had multiple IP, then at each IP his dodge pool would have reset. The second and third rounds would have been repeats of the first.

Also, having multiple IP allows you to go on full defense in your first IP, giving you a tremendous advantage on defense. Then, after the mere mortals expend their best efforts, you can freely kick their asses on your later IPs.

Also, dont forget that many IP boosters also add to reaction.
BattleJester
QUOTE
Now, if Joe had had multiple IP, then at each IP his dodge pool would have reset. The second and third rounds would have been repeats of the first.


I wasn't sure that the dice pools reset each IP as I do not recall reading anywhere that they did, though it did say in the FAQ that recoil reset each IP. That being the case makes a big difference.

QUOTE
Also, dont forget that many IP boosters also add to reaction.


This is also a factor I overlooked, but a very important one to recognize.

Ok, as with the target aquisition factor, that makes a lot of sense. But then, what's the point of having a gun that can fire faster than your ability to use that rate of fire effectively?

Also, what if you're just shooting a barrier, shouldn't you be able to take it down faster as you should just be able to fire at the fullest rate of fire? (It's not like it takes a lot of time to aquire it as a target)

A factor that's not taken care of in the rules is a gun that is overheating, but that seems to be the case only if you are firing at the full rate of fire, but I may be wrong.

Still, it is just a game, but if you can use a greater rate of fire due to the guns capability, it would make sense that you could use it. I could see someone with an IP of 1 still having bullets fly at an attacker with and IP of 3 during the attackers 2nd and 3rd action phases of the combat turn.

I don't know, mabye I'm still thinking inside of a box.
PlatonicPimp
You're thinking ealism a bit to much. In previous editions, that would have been OK, but this edition is more abstract. I like to think of initiativve passes as those moments in a movie combat scene where that character has the camera on them. The more badass the character is, the more the camera is going to be on them. Only actions taken on camera count. It has nothing to do with how long a combat turn is or how long an IP is, it's all about who gets to kick more ass.
l33tpenguin
QUOTE
Ok, as with the target aquisition factor, that makes a lot of sense. But then, what's the point of having a gun that can fire faster than your ability to use that rate of fire effectively?


You have a car that CAN drive 160 mph. Do you always drive at 160 mph? Machines typically can do things much more effectively than humans, its just a matter of to what exent an individual can take advantage of that ability.

QUOTE

Also, what if you're just shooting a barrier, shouldn't you be able to take it down faster as you should just be able to fire at the fullest rate of fire? (It's not like it takes a lot of time to aquire it as a target)


This would depend. Think abstractly, as te rules are supposed to be. It could be that an individual with 1 IP reacts to recoil more than someone with 3 IP. They have to readjust after each shot to bring their weapon back to target, taking a little longer. The person with 3 IP might have a much tighter grouping, focusing their damage on the object better. 10 rounds put in the same 5 inch square is going to do much more damage to a wall than 20 rounds sprayed randomly.

QUOTE
A factor that's not taken care of in the rules is a gun that is overheating, but that seems to be the case only if you are firing at the full rate of fire, but I may be wrong.


Overheating is really only an issue with heavy machine guns. Yes, assault rifles can overheat, but usually your magazine is empty before that. Belt fed weapons don't have that limiting factor. Even so, There aren't many instances in SR where you are laying down fully automatic fire for minutes on end.

QUOTE
Still, it is just a game, but if you can use a greater rate of fire due to the guns capability, it would make sense that you could use it. I could see someone with an IP of 1 still having bullets fly at an attacker with and IP of 3 during the attackers 2nd and 3rd action phases of the combat turn.


Its an abstract concept again. In all reality, firing 2 rounds in 3 seconds from a side arm isn't slow. Firing 6 well placed shots in that time is very impressive. Gun bunnies would do hella good in modern shooting competitions.
Blade
QUOTE ("BattleJester")
as you are experiencing the world in slow motion.


Actually you don't experience the world in slow motion, you're just a bit quicker to react. I don't know if you've done or seen this reaction test to show how long it takes for someone to stop his car. The results varies but they range from 0.5 to 1.5s.
The guys with extra IP react much faster.

So what hapening during a combat turn is something like this (I have no idea of how long it takes to do the action, I'm just guessing):
- 0.00s Beginning of the combat turn (threat seen)
- 0.10s Multiple IP guy starts to ready his gun
- 0.30s Multiple IP guy has his gun readied and is starting to aim towards the target
- 0.50s Single IP guy starts to ready his gun
- 0.70s Single IP guy has his gun readied
- 0.80s Multiple IP guy has the target in his sights and shoots
- 1.20s Multiple IP guy reajusts his aim
- 1.40s Single IP guy has the target in his sights and shoots
- 1.70s Multipe IP guy has the target in his sights and shoots again.
- 2.10s Multipe IP guy reajusts his aim
- 2.20s Single IP guy reajusts his aim
- 2.60s Multiple IP guy has the target in his sights and shoots for the third time
- 2.80s Single IP guy has the target in his sights shoots again

And so on (actually my example is not too good because multiple IP guy shoot 3 times instead of 4, but I hope you get the idea).
To makes things simpler we consider different IP but all actions are happening simultaneously.
Personally, I tend to describe the action chronologically (as in the example) but it gets more complicated than using IP.

As for the rate of fire, it avoids rolling 12 times per turn when someone is shooting with a SA gun. We just consider that all the characters are professional enough to shoot only when they are sure of their aim (which is consistent with the fact that it's quite easy to hit someone compared to real life).
What you can do is consider that a character with a low skill/professional rating will tend to shoot more than one bullet during his shooting action but with the same result as if he'd shot only one bullet after taking a bit longer to aim.
BattleJester
I think it would make more sense that a gun that fired fully automatically in a combat turn would expend 40 bullets. The difference being that someone with 1 IP would only have a good chance of 10 of those bullets hitting, and someone with 4 IP would have a good chance of all 40 hitting. Recoil compensation would work equally for both as well.

Maybe this would be a good house rule:

Reaction + IPs - 4 = your natural recoil compensation. (Yes, you would receive a penalty for having a Reaction of less than 3)

You would have a recoil compensation pool equal to your natural recoil compensation + anything else that helps with recoil compensation (firearm accessories or even your own designed Adept power).

You could use this pool at any point during the Combat phase. For instance, if you had a Recoil Pool of 7, you could use 3 on your first IP and 4 on your second.

I would also consider it to take a Free Action to reset your natural recoil compensation, or a Simple Action to reset your total recoil compensation pool. In other words, recoil wouldn't just disappear at the beginning of each action phase. [As a side note, I believe it should also cost a Free Action for Defending yourself to reset the cumulative -1 attack you get for each attack you defend against]

The final change is that you can fire your weapon 4 times what it says in the rules, but with a costly recoil. For example, the rules say you can only fire a single-shot weapon only once in an action phase. I'm suggesting that you can fire it 4 times in that one Simple Action. The first time with no penalty, the second with a -8, the third with a -16, and the last at -32.

I know that this says someone with 4 IPs can fire up to 160 bullets with a fully automatic weapon in an Combat turn, but the reality is that the majority wouldn't hit.

These are my initial thoughts on the subject.
Aku
QUOTE (battlejester)
The final change is that you can fire your weapon 4 times what it says in the rules, but with a costly recoil. For example, the rules say you can only fire a single-shot weapon only once in an action phase. I'm suggesting that you can fire it 4 times in that one Simple Action. The first time with no penalty, the second with a -8, the third with a -16, and the last at -32.


what exactly is the point of this rule? even at the double penelty, only the best gun bunnies will be trying it, and does any playable character even have a dp to counteract and still succeed t a -32? or are you just planning on it being abused by longshot?
BattleJester
QUOTE

QUOTE
The final change is that you can fire your weapon 4 times what it says in the rules, but with a costly recoil. For example, the rules say you can only fire a single-shot weapon only once in an action phase. I'm suggesting that you can fire it 4 times in that one Simple Action. The first time with no penalty, the second with a -8, the third with a -16, and the last at -32.


what exactly is the point of this rule? even at the double penelty, only the best gun bunnies will be trying it, and does any playable character even have a dp to counteract and still succeed t a -32? or are you just planning on it being abused by longshot?


The point is that you are capable, but you aren't likely to get much benefit from it. I didn't want to fully change the rules. Single shot weapons, for the most part, should only be fired once in a combat turn as the rules state. I wasn't quite sure if it should be -4, -8, -16 or the way I had it (I thought it should at least be exponential). I certainly didn't want it to be abused, especially by gun bunnies. And I didn't really think about Longshot, but that would certainly give your Edge another use in combat.
Glyph
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Also, having multiple IP allows you to go on full defense in your first IP, giving you a tremendous advantage on defense. Then, after the mere mortals expend their best efforts, you can freely kick their asses on your later IPs.

You don't even have to give up your first IP. You can attack first, then use full defense as an interrupt action. And if you have three or four IPs, you can do that and attack them again later.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (BattleJester)
Single shot weapons, for the most part, should only be fired once in a combat turn as the rules state.

Uhm, no. Single Shot weapons take a Simple Action but can only be used once per Action Phase not Combat Turn. There's a HUGE difference between the two.
mfb
QUOTE (BattleJester)
The final change is that you can fire your weapon 4 times what it says in the rules, but with a costly recoil. For example, the rules say you can only fire a single-shot weapon only once in an action phase. I'm suggesting that you can fire it 4 times in that one Simple Action. The first time with no penalty, the second with a -8, the third with a -16, and the last at -32.

if realism is your concern, this really isn't the best fix. personally, i like the idea of simply allowing SA firearms to fire on FA mode as a complex action, with the max # of rounds per action equal to the shooter's Rea. maybe toss an additional -1 or -2 modifier because popping the trigger as fast as you can isn't going to get you into the Olympics.
Ol' Scratch
Or you can just let people use the rules for Suppressive Fire with any firearm.
WeaverMount
There is actually one place there IPs do explicitly change the rate of fire. Suppression takes 20 bullets and lasts until the shoot can act again. So mooks can suppress an area for a whole combat turn on one clip, but the teams gun bunny can't. Does this need a fix? What do you think about suppression taking 7 rounds per IP suppressed if you think of IPs time intervals. If you think of IP working more abstractly then you say that Suppression can be maintained for up to a whole combat round per 20 shots if you choose.
BattleJester
QUOTE
QUOTE
Single shot weapons, for the most part, should only be fired once in a combat turn as the rules state. 


Uhm, no. Single Shot weapons take a Simple Action but can only be used once per Action Phase not Combat Turn. There's a HUGE difference between the two.


Thanks for the correction Doc, I meant to say that.

QUOTE
if realism is your concern, this really isn't the best fix. personally, i like the idea of simply allowing SA firearms to fire on FA mode as a complex action, with the max # of rounds per action equal to the shooter's Rea. maybe toss an additional -1 or -2 modifier because popping the trigger as fast as you can isn't going to get you into the Olympics.


I did add a bit of rules, but I kind of wanted them to be like "advanced rules" for those who like a little more detail. I do like your thought on # of rounds and their connection to Reaction.

Maybe it could be that your Reaction/3 [round up] would determine how many times you could do the same action. For instance, if you had a Reaction of 5, you could fire a single shot weapon twice in the same Simple Action.

Your penalty for the second should would be: Reaction - 7, the third: Reaction -11, and the 4th: Reaction -15.

In addition to these penalties, you would also subtract the penalty for each bullet fired. So if had a Reaction of 5, and were firing Burst, you would fire your first time with a -2 penalty and could fire a second time with an additional -5. If you then choose to follow attacking in the next Simple Action with two more, you would receive an additional -3 and then -5.
So Simple Action 1:
First penalty: -2
Second penalty: -7
Simple Action 2:
Third penalty: -10
Fourth penalty: -15

QUOTE
Or you can just let people use the rules for Suppressive Fire with any firearm.


I would allow this as well, except I would say that there is a penalty to the threshhold depending on the weapon that you are using. Burst fire at -1, Semi-automatic at -2, and Single Shot at -3.

QUOTE
There is actually one place there IPs do explicitly change the rate of fire. Suppression takes 20 bullets and lasts until the shoot can act again. So mooks can suppress an area for a whole combat turn on one clip, but the teams gun bunny can't. Does this need a fix? What do you think about suppression taking 7 rounds per IP suppressed if you think of IPs time intervals. If you think of IP working more abstractly then you say that Suppression can be maintained for up to a whole combat round per 20 shots if you choose.


Well, I like it. The only thing would be it would cost 5 bullets (if you had 4 IPs), 7 (if you had 3), and 10 (if you had 2) [and that's only if you're doing it full-auto].

I would also say that you could fire up to 4 times as much in the round if you had the Reaction to do so (as stated above). So that guy with a reaction of 5, if he had an IP of 1, could fire 40 bullets in a round. The Success Test would be Agility + appropriate firearm skill + (Reaction/3)[Round down]. So in this case it would be Agility + Firearm skill + 1.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012