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FriendoftheDork
Hey in my Barrens game my players wants to access a cable in order to hack the system without actually accessing the terminal itself.

Ok, basically the system is inside a series of camps, and both since this is an old module and because having the system hackable from a distance is a security liability the organization cannot take (Megacorps and even FBI would jump at the opportunity, and they WOULD probably suceed to hack any RAW system.

Now this camp has a cable going from the Barrens to Downtown (underground). This is a one-way line, so that the camp system can access the Downtown one, but not vice versa.

But what if the runners actually found the cable and wanted to tap it? What would they need or is it even possible? The party has a hardware shop and a good hardware/hacker guy that should be able to oull it off if it's possible I think.

Ok, perhaps they won't even find the cable without starting to dig up ground (causing attention), but what about the cameras? Since the entire area is jammed (rating 10) the cameras are of course wired. Now the runners wants to access such a camera, and maniupulate the camera through the wire (sending video loops etc.). Is this possible? I've already said the wires are visible (although in hard to get to places) so I can't just say they're in the walls and inaccessible.
kzt
Typically all signals is SR are on fiber. Fiber is a bitch to tap subtly. It's not impossible, but it's hard. You have to strip the jacket and bend it just right, using really clever equipment. And it requires a service loop in the fiber and some work space to do this. If you can cut the fiber and have a commercially built tap it's easy. Taps are currently fairly expensive, and they only allow interception (not transmission), but you'd only be off-line for a few minutes.

But a few minutes is a LONG time for a data network to be down. People will be rather interested in what happened. And using an OTDR you can spot a tap. So doing it in a service window while the fiber run is inactive is really helpful.

Really crazy paranoid people run their fiber in pressurized heavy metal conduits, with pressure drops being rapidly reacted to.
bjorn
kzt pretty much said it all. Fiber is very hard to get into without anyone knowing about it. Probably the best option for them would be to find an already made splice and route that through a device that allows them to see it. If they do it fast enough, they may be able to trick the system into thinking the splice just failed for a second. If it happens often enough, they may send a repair crew out however.
l33tpenguin
I thought there was a device in 3rd that allowed a decker to tap into a wired network? It had rating and rules to be detected.
Adarael
"Dataline Tap".
Crusher Bob
If you want to make finding and taping the cable a large part of the adventure then some of the following might be helpful:

Thel'yy probably need equipment to find out where the cable is buried, and how deep it is:

Submarine and Buried Cable Test Equipment

Buried Facility Locating

Should provide some ideas.

On geting your cable into the ground:

GENERAL PROVISIONS FOR POLELINE, PIPELINE, AND BURIED CABLE PERMITS, & MISCELLANEOUS PERMITS (pdf file)

so note that there are records somewhere about exactly how and where the cable was laid. Doing a run on where-ever those records are stored will yield all sorts of useful info.

-------


As far as I can tell, the cable itself will be placed in a pipe, with some number of maintenance junctions along the whole length of the cable. This allows checking on the cable and will let you replace just sections of the cable instead of having to cut out the whole thing. So the best bet would be to find out where a maintenance junction is and dig down to it. The junction should already provide for splicing the cable.

If the guys who laid the cable are paranoid, there will probably be anti-tamper systems on the cable pipe itself. These systems have to be pretty robust since they have to deal with the weather, but will trip up your team without a hardware guy to bypass them.

Installing the tap itself may or may not require bringing the cable 'down' (depends on how complicated you want to make it). The guys who are on either end will certainly notice this. You may want to cause a traffic accident that momentarily cuts power or something so that the cable guys are not suspicious about the cable connections flickering a moment.
FriendoftheDork
Ty for answers, at least I know this isn't as easy as my players seems to think.

As for the main fiber cable interception, I don't think they'll try that yet, but the camera wire seems far more likely. However only a foot or so of cable will be visible, the rest will be embedded into the walls and roofs. So if no one bothered them they could cut the cable and hook it up with their equipment to intercept the signal? Of course that would mean the camera would go offline for awhile, which means the security will detect it pretty fast...

am I rght?
Fortune
This kind of thing was a pretty standard procedure for tech-types up until about 6 years ago or so. I don't think the knowledge has gone too far away just yet.
kzt
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Of course that would mean the camera would go offline for awhile, which means the security will detect it pretty fast...

Modern surveillance cameras are either IP cameras or analog. Analog uses coax, which IIRC you can vampire tap. But that's unlikely in 50 years.

If it's fiber they are just as screwed. If it's a copper data cable you can inductively tap them without cutting the cable. I'm told it's not trivial, but it's much easier than doing the same from fiber.

While pretty much all the mention I've seen of cables in SR is fiber, I have to admit that it's really hard to power a surveillance camera over fiber, while it;s trivial to do it over copper. If the camera is supposed to be fairly close (like within a few hundred feet) to where the cable run I'd probably assume it's copper and they can inductively tape it with the right gear and right skills. This allows them to see what the camera sees, and some other surveillance housekeeping data.

Feeding the surveillance system bogus camera data is a whole other trick, and for that I'd argue they would need to cut it and install equipment inline.
Jaid
the rules for intercepting wired traffic are found on page 224 (under "intercepting traffic").

you can tell it's referring to wired traffic because it explicitly tells you to look on the next page to find the rules for intercepting *wireless* traffic.

basically, you need to have control of a device that is already in the wired system... so basically, to get into the network they're going to need to find an access point as far as the basic rules are concerned... given that one end is in the site of the adventure (and if they could access those, they probably wouldn't need to control the system anyways) that leaves the options of either getting access by connecting into something that is already connected to the system (a guard or security director's commlink, or whatever they use for accessing the system in the first place likely has one or more unused access ports), or hacking in to the other end (assuming it is connected to the wireless matrix at all, that is).
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Jaid)
the rules for intercepting wired traffic are found on page 224 (under "intercepting traffic").

you can tell it's referring to wired traffic because it explicitly tells you to look on the next page to find the rules for intercepting *wireless* traffic.

basically, you need to have control of a device that is already in the wired system... so basically, to get into the network they're going to need to find an access point as far as the basic rules are concerned... given that one end is in the site of the adventure (and if they could access those, they probably wouldn't need to control the system anyways) that leaves the options of either getting access by connecting into something that is already connected to the system (a guard or security director's commlink, or whatever they use for accessing the system in the first place likely has one or more unused access ports), or hacking in to the other end (assuming it is connected to the wireless matrix at all, that is).

Well the problems is that the team probably don't want to physically enter the guard station in order to jack into the system and control the cameras, as that would entail killing/incapacitating the guards in the first place.

if the can do that before the guards manage to sound the alarm, they probably would, but as of now they'd rather simply take on a single security camera and bypass the guards altogether and make a stealthy approach. To do that they need to get over the electrified fence (leviate spell), sneak past the guards and get to the camera either by drone or leviate so that the team can enter the facility undetected.

This won't be easy, but I'm still not sure if it's even possible.

To you rest, I don't know exactly what cables they use but it needs to be good enough for it to send data to the security terminal which are only a couple hundred feet away. The terminal is monitored by a guard at all times.

If I assume this is a copper cable or whatever, and IP (whatever that is), how do I do this game mechanics? How expensive would the equipment be, how easily can they get it in a short amount of time (using favors if need be), what kind of roll would it be (assuming hardware+logic), and how difficult should it be?
kzt
My somewhat non-RAW guesses as to what I'd do:

I'd guess inductive tapping would be R12 5000 nuyen.gif , Fiber is R24 25000 nuyen.gif If they have friends who are in the spy biz they might be able to borrow/lease them.

For non-intrusive tapping I'd say electronics warfare+ logic plus hardware+logic as a teamwork test (even if it's one PC). Extended test for 8 (10 minutes) with the commercial gear vs copper, with extended test for 15 (30 minutes) with commercial gear for fiber. Without the gear I'd add 10 to the threshold, as someone is trying to improvise very delicate tools. Remember to limit number of tries to electronic warfare skill.

This allows them to see what the camera sees and to shut it down when they want. To send their own pictures instead requires cutting and splicing in a device. This is much easier, and much more obvious.

To cut and splice the cable I'd say a simple hardware+EW+logic (or default) for a simple success for copper, two successes for fiber. I'd roll after a minute for copper, 5 minutes for fiber. If they fail they can try again until they glitch, though it becomes more and more likely that they will get caught. Since the signal will go out when they start and stay out until they succeed, they need to figure out how to keep the guard from noticing.

Then, once they have a comlink installed, an EW+logic roll to edit the camera feed as desired.
Crusher Bob
Ok, lemme make sure I understand the setup you have:

There is a large security campus surrounded by an electric fence.

The specific area that the team wants to access within the campus is covered by a security camera, said camera having a wired connection rather than an unwired one?

----------------

Options for how the camera could be hooked up:

-------
Very old school: The cameras are both powered and controlled by copper wires. These wires all individually run from the camera(s) to the security office.

Advantages:
Each camera must be messed with individually.

Any problem with one camera will not effect the whole system.

If the place loses power, a generator in the security office can maintain power to all the cameras via the wires already in place.

Disadvantages
Adding new cameras of changing the location of the cameras is a cast iron bitch as you have to run a wire from the security office to the new camera location. If there are maintenance tunnels that hold the wires, then you don't have to dig up the ground each time, but you may have to dig out the walls or ceiling of the place each time you move or add cameras.

As the system relies on miles of copper cable, it is both expensive to set up and expensive to maintain. Expect all sorts of static on the monitors, and a few cameras to have failed and in be in the process of being fixed.

If a camera is compromised, there is almost no way to tell beyond on all the cables.

-------

Pre wireless matrix method:

Cameras on the network

The cameras are all plugged into a regular computer network. This may be the same network that all the other campus computers are on, or may be a seperate network for the security systems.

Advantages
Much simpler and cheaper to setup as you already have network connections almost everywhere. A new camera just requires plugging into a network jack a getting the handshakes right. As the network interface is standard, you can use almost any off-the-shelf camera, so you can switch to a cheaper vendor if you want to, and not have to make many changes to your system.

The security of the cameras is managed by your regular network security. If someone takes over a camera, you have a chance to notice it unless they've taken over your network security already.

Disadvantages:
Increased access to the security network. With the copper wire system, you basically had to be in the security office to control all the cameras. With the networked cameras any yahoo that can get his computer plugged into the network can attempt to hack it.

Cameras are locally powered. If you want the system to still be running when the power is cut, you'd need to have a generator for your network equipment and a battery pack for each camera.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Ok, lemme make sure I understand the setup you have:

There is a large security campus surrounded by an electric fence.

The specific area that the team wants to access within the campus is covered by a security camera, said camera having a wired connection rather than an unwired one?

----------------

Options for how the camera could be hooked up:

-------
Very old school: The cameras are both powered and controlled by copper wires. These wires all individually run from the camera(s) to the security office.

Advantages:
Each camera must be messed with individually.

Any problem with one camera will not effect the whole system.

If the place loses power, a generator in the security office can maintain power to all the cameras via the wires already in place.

Disadvantages
Adding new cameras of changing the location of the cameras is a cast iron bitch as you have to run a wire from the security office to the new camera location. If there are maintenance tunnels that hold the wires, then you don't have to dig up the ground each time, but you may have to dig out the walls or ceiling of the place each time you move or add cameras.

As the system relies on miles of copper cable, it is both expensive to set up and expensive to maintain. Expect all sorts of static on the monitors, and a few cameras to have failed and in be in the process of being fixed.

If a camera is compromised, there is almost no way to tell beyond on all the cables.

-------

Pre wireless matrix method:

Cameras on the network

The cameras are all plugged into a regular computer network. This may be the same network that all the other campus computers are on, or may be a seperate network for the security systems.

Advantages
Much simpler and cheaper to setup as you already have network connections almost everywhere. A new camera just requires plugging into a network jack a getting the handshakes right. As the network interface is standard, you can use almost any off-the-shelf camera, so you can switch to a cheaper vendor if you want to, and not have to make many changes to your system.

The security of the cameras is managed by your regular network security. If someone takes over a camera, you have a chance to notice it unless they've taken over your network security already.

Disadvantages:
Increased access to the security network. With the copper wire system, you basically had to be in the security office to control all the cameras. With the networked cameras any yahoo that can get his computer plugged into the network can attempt to hack it.

Cameras are locally powered. If you want the system to still be running when the power is cut, you'd need to have a generator for your network equipment and a battery pack for each camera.

The pre-wireless seems to be what I'm looking for. If the team can somehow jack into the system they should be able to hack the cameras and basically do anything they want. The problem is that the terminals are inside the buildings, and getting in is the challenge in the first place. Undetected, that is.

And the cameras must still be connected somehow, yes? These cameras need to send signals to the network, and since they're not wireless it must be a cable of some sort going from the camera to a network access point.

Am I right?

Kzt, that's some expensive shit, they'll have fits I'm sure. And cut and splice seems like what they want to do, but they want to do it so quickly the security won't notice. If time between the actualy cutting and the restoring is one minute that will just be too long.

Hmm, perhaps the team is better off just sniping the guards and storming the place. Sure, backup will come eventually but if they're quick they could make it.

PS how hard would it be to spot a sniper hiding 1.5 kilometer (almost a mile) away and shooting at guards through a chain-link fence?
Jaid
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
PS how hard would it be to spot a sniper hiding 1.5 kilometer (almost a mile) away and shooting at guards through a chain-link fence?

extremely hard. you could narrow it down to some extent, but it's not gonna be easy to spot them (provided they are appropriately prepared... lying down, camo gear, etc)
Buster
Especially if the sniper is a ruthenium polymer skinned drone.
l33tpenguin
QUOTE
The pre-wireless seems to be what I'm looking for. If the team can somehow jack into the system they should be able to hack the cameras and basically do anything they want. The problem is that the terminals are inside the buildings, and getting in is the challenge in the first place. Undetected, that is.

And the cameras must still be connected somehow, yes? These cameras need to send signals to the network, and since they're not wireless it must be a cable of some sort going from the camera to a network access point.

Am I right?

Kzt, that's some expensive shit, they'll have fits I'm sure. And cut and splice seems like what they want to do, but they want to do it so quickly the security won't notice. If time between the actualy cutting and the restoring is one minute that will just be too long.

Hmm, perhaps the team is better off just sniping the guards and storming the place. Sure, backup will come eventually but if they're quick they could make it.

PS how hard would it be to spot a sniper hiding 1.5 kilometer (almost a mile) away and shooting at guards through a chain-link fence?


If the sniper has a flash suppressor it would be nigh impossible, not just extremely difficult. Have a buddy drive down a road a mile in a car, get out and lay under it (of course not in traffic) then blink a flashlight at you and see if you notice it

Personally, the best way to overcome the camera hacking situation you have is to give the team access to, either provided or they purchase, a dataline tap, ala 3rd edition. They then have to find a dataline inside the compound to tap into, giving them access to the wired network. Treat the cameras like nodes. Give them some ratings, possibly some IC. It is also VERY likely that there will be IC roaming the wired network looking for intruders. Resolve matrix combat like normal. You COULD have the dataline tap include a wireless access point, essentially turning the tap into a wireless broadcast point to a wired network. But chances are this would be noticed as suddenly there is a wireless network broadcasting inside the facility. Of course, this is what encrypted or point to point wireless communication is for.

Is there point to point comms in SR4 that I simply haven't read yet? Lasers are so great when it comes to security.
kzt
QUOTE (l33tpenguin)
If the sniper has a flash suppressor it would be nigh impossible, not just extremely difficult.

Per people who have had people shoot at them, the flash suppressor doesn't help much when they are shooting AT you. Plus the typical muzzle flash is actually bigger than the flash suppressor will cover. But seeing anything at 1500 meters is hard. Of course, getting LOS to someone from 1500 meters is usually tough unless you are hiding somewhere pretty obvious.

Anyhow, to completely hide the muzzle flash you need a silencer or suppressor.
Buster
A flying drone with the sun behind it would do the trick. A sound suppressor wouldn't do much good with a sniper rifle as their ammo is supersonic. But a mobile flying drone will have moved by the time the sonic boom reaches the victim's location.
kzt
QUOTE (Buster)
A flying drone with the sun behind it would do the trick. A sound suppressor wouldn't do much good with a sniper rifle as their ammo is supersonic.

You misunderstand. To be an effective suppressor you have to keep the propellant gases from burning in the open air, as that produces a lot of the sound. Hence there is no muzzle flash with a decent suppressor. Nor do you have much dust kickup like you can get with a muzzle brake, as the suppressor allows the gases to slow down and expand before reaching the open air.

It's all around a good deal.
Crusher Bob
Of course, supersonic projectiles also make a small sonic boom. This much much less noisy that normal gunfire, and much harder for non-enhanced humans to location the source but it's still quite loud and obviously gunfire. Even for subsonic projectiles, the gunfire is still pretty loud.

The hearing ranges look something like:

normal gunfire:
thousands of meters

supressed gunfire w/ supersonic projectiles:
hundreds of meters
Still obviously gunfire, but useful for keeping the next town/valley/ etc unaware of your shooting, also much easier on your ears. Remember that anyone without the hearing damper will have real trouble hearing anything during and shortly after a gunfight.

supressed gunfire w/ subsonic projectiles:
tens of meters
they can still here you in the next room, sounds more like <whump> than <bang> though, so can be confused for something other than gunfire. (Examples, dropping a heavy book or hitting something with a large )hammer

'extreme' supressed gunfire: meters
Anything qualifying here is firing light pistol ammo in SS or SA.

--------

Remember that mages can learn the silence spell and drown out the sound of the gunfire all together. Of course, supersonic projectiles still make noise, but you could fire subsonic projectiles silently.

As a rule, just about everything bigger than a hold out pistol has a pretty good chance of firing a supersonic round. Some of the light and heavy pistols might not, depending on exactly what you see them as shooting.



l33tpenguin
QUOTE (Buster)
A flying drone with the sun behind it would do the trick. A sound suppressor wouldn't do much good with a sniper rifle as their ammo is supersonic. But a mobile flying drone will have moved by the time the sonic boom reaches the victim's location.

Its a common misconception that silenced or suppressed weapons can't use super-sonic ammunition. There are many weapons that are suppressed capable of firing supersonic ammunition with little increase to the report of the weapon. You will still have the crack from the round breaking the sound barrier, but determining trajectory based strictly on the crack of the bullet is rather difficult.

If you are too worried about supersonic ammo, just load subsonic.

On top of it all, you are still talking about engaging a target from a mile out. Thats a LONG shot. I wouldn't be worried too much about the report of supersonic ammunition.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (l33tpenguin @ Aug 22 2007, 06:20 AM)
QUOTE (Buster @ Aug 21 2007, 10:07 PM)
A flying drone with the sun behind it would do the trick.  A sound suppressor wouldn't do much good with a sniper rifle as their ammo is supersonic.  But a mobile flying drone will have moved by the time the sonic boom reaches the victim's location.

Its a common misconception that silenced or suppressed weapons can't use super-sonic ammunition. There are many weapons that are suppressed capable of firing supersonic ammunition with little increase to the report of the weapon. You will still have the crack from the round breaking the sound barrier, but determining trajectory based strictly on the crack of the bullet is rather difficult.

If you are too worried about supersonic ammo, just load subsonic.

On top of it all, you are still talking about engaging a target from a mile out. Thats a LONG shot. I wouldn't be worried too much about the report of supersonic ammunition.


It's not a long shot, it's the extreme range of the sniper rifle.. and since he uses vision magnification you don't even get the -3 for range... in fact by RAW the shot is extremely easy, since also the target won't be able to dodge unless they have a tremendous reaction (and get as many or more hits on the suprise test).


As for the cable situation penguin some part of the cable is not inside the building. Am I right that they can use this line tap thingy to alter signals? As I've said tons of times, there is no wireless there and they can't get inside the building to do it as it defeats the reason.
l33tpenguin
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
It's not a long shot, it's the extreme range of the sniper rifle.. and since he uses vision magnification you don't even get the -3 for range... in fact by RAW the shot is extremely easy, since also the target won't be able to dodge unless they have a tremendous reaction (and get as many or more hits on the suprise test).


As for the cable situation penguin some part of the cable is not inside the building. Am I right that they can use this line tap thingy to alter signals? As I've said tons of times, there is no wireless there and they can't get inside the building to do it as it defeats the reason.

er.. lol. I didn't mean long shot like the rule. but as in 'it's a shot from far away' The chances of it being pinpointed on the crack from the round alone is going to be extreamly hard. Sorry for the confusion on that. I didn't mean that the shot itself would be ever so difficult.

Yes, dataline taps were designed to give a decker access to a LTG by tapping into a hard line and infiltrating the network from that point. If a decker is able to find any exposed wire (or expose a wire) that feeds into the buildings network, they could use a dataline tap to gain access. Once tapped, provided there was no security in place (IC, etc) a decker had free reign of a network.

What I meant by a wireless connection was you could give the team a dataline tap with a wireless access point. Incase your hacker is too floppy to bring along, the rest of the team could get in and install the tap, giving the hacker a way to connect wirelessly into the wired network.
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