Well, after I saw a post claiming mages were more important to a run then deckers, I went about talking to my friends. I started a little poll asking, if it came down to it, would you rather have a decker or a mage in your team? Imagine you're hired for a run but you can only have so many people in your team. You got one slot left, and you can choose between a mage or a decker? Two completely differant worlds of running but both almost required to an extent.

I really want to know what dumpshock members think of this. I had trouble getting a straight answer from most of my Shadowrun team and really want to see what the answers stack up to.

...SRIII & before: I would take the Decker, for without one, the Matrix is pretty much useless. A Rigger could also be a decent backup decker, but to really crack the tough nodes, you need a specialist. Though not as instant as healing spells, someone with a decent Biotech (First Aid) skill, a well stocked Medikit and an autodoc drone can get a team by in the case of injury. Just make sure everyone has a decent willpower to fend off spells and the Sammy is an expert at some form of Melee attack (or the adept has killing hands or a WF) if a spirit shows up.

...SRIV, as much as I hate to admit it, the mage is more important here. Almost anyone (even the mage) can beef up his or her commlink and buy the essential programmes and skill to crack the matrix. Since most matrix tests are extended, having that huge DP is not all that necessary. Also, Attribute has no bearing the cracking pool (*sigh* ) so a high Logic is not as important as good utility programmes. Spells in SR4 are tougher against mundanes & based on the many discussions I have read magic almost always seems to trump just about everything else in the game.

Deckermage! Riggerdeckermage, even better. Of course, if you can find a Riggerdeckermageface floating around…

~J

...only if I can use the optional Powerful Character Generation rules in MrJ'sLBB

It depends on the run and the opposition.

Mage. Decker is honestly pretty limited utility. Mage is essential, however, since if you don't have your mage the whole team is easy to magic to death. The mage is a much bigger gap in your game plan than the decker.

i have to agree with DLN and add that it also depends on the makeup of the rest of the team. for instance, the group that i ran with in DFW we had 2 phys ads, 1 Street sams and a electronics expert/face and occaisionally we had a mage, but usual aspects of the missions magic side we could use the phy adepts with a major weapon focus, (Thank you force 5 Broadsword) and the electronics side, we all had fairly decent vehicle and weapons skills and the electronic tech handled the data recovery by pulling the hard drives or installing a tap link and then having an exterior NPC decker do the recovery. honestly theres ways around both

for SR4, i would say take the mage, anyone can hack now

Without knowing either the composition of the rest of the team or their mission, there really isn't enough information to make an informed choice. I would agree with the consensus that the mage would be better 9 times out of 10 in SR4.

Much as I, the pentultimate deck-wanker, hate to admit it...

9 for 10 in ordinary situations, the mage. Of course...

Just get a mage who's Initiated once and has the extra Magic die that can safely allow Essense to be reduced. Bam, a Deckermage. He can spend his cash upgrades on his commlink, and his karma for his magery, once he's gotten his hacking DP up nice and pretty.

I've always loved mages, always played with 'em whenever I got the chance, regardless of what game I was playing, but in a game like Shadowrun where there's so much cool potential in the Matrix, it's a pity that deckers aren't, y'know...better. Or rather, mages should probably be nerfed a little, but alas. Unless you're doing a datasteal run, the mage is the correct choice.

...I love mages too, usually when they were in the sights of my Walther 2100

--Jill

Was that supposed to be English?

Having not made the jump to 4th ed, this is my 3rd ed view:

For recon, healing, and mobility you cannot beat having a well rounded mage on the team.

On the other hand, having a competant decker on matrix overwatch throughout a run can be a lifesaver.

My recommendation: Take the decker, and cultivate a bear or snake shaman contact at level 2 or above to cover the healing.

3rd ed: Otaku on overwatch, combat decker to do off-line systems, mage for just about everything else.

4th ed: Mystic adept hacker.

Mage - gotta have it.

In SR4, it's ALL those spellcasting dice thrown by the bad-guy mage vs. your Willpower and NOTHING ELSE if you don't have a good counterspeller.

Plus, hacker and his sprites useful against any opposition with tech. More the opfor tech, the more useful.

Mage and spirits useful agains ANYONE, whatever the environment or opfor tech level (okay, there are mana ebbs and all that, but that's picking nits).

In SR4 a mage that can summon Task Spirits will be able to handle the matrix operations. And that's just one way for the Matrix stuff to get covered.

Since we've already ruled in the fact fourth edition fux0red up the use of Hackers and made them pointless, hows about we focus on third edition? Hrmmm, I really do like the input, but here's a situation.

You've meet with the Johnson and he's offered you one hell of a pay. Theres only one problem, you have no idea what's going to go down. Only that you must break into an Ares Complex and retrieve.....something. You don't know what it is or how you're supposed to get it. The only help he offers is a map of the complex with a red dot where the object is supposed to be, fourth floor in the center of the complex. Theres a catch though, for some reason you can only take one person, and they have to be one of his own men. A cybered out Combat Decker or a Mage with a long list of spells, most of which force six and specialized in combat. Which do you choose?

If you were stupid enough to take this mission, which would you choose?

The mage, because SR3 spirits can't disable bomb vests. I would, of course, require the character in question to wear a vest loaded with enough explosives to level Rhode Island, set to explode if I am neutralized and which can be exploded manually if I get pissed off enough.

The Decker. Its one of Mr. Johnson's men, who will have an agenda all of his own, and not necessarily one in the best interests of the shadowrunners. The combat decker is limited to the same real world limitations of the rest of the team. A mage would be far too much of a wild card for any sane team to work with.

...I agree with Wargear.

Heh, not because it is too powerful.

Hell, a decent grenade launcher can achieve many of the same effects as the mage.

No, it's because I would never allow a magic-user who I cannot trust implicitly to participate in a run with a character of mine. A tricked out combat mage with no ties of loyalty to the team can wreak far more havok than a tricked out combat decker.

Now I'm not saying a combat decker cannot waste the entire team if he turns on them mid run, but unless the team is Very trusting, he's going to be in the thick of it with them when it goes down.
The mage can take out the whole team from a distance without exposing himself to reprisal, and can withdraw from the team midrun at the worst possible time with ease.

It's not "Power" that causes me to favour the Decker over the Mage.

I've seen a pair of Sams level a city block, and I know damn well just how powerful the matrix can be in the hands of a competant decker.

It's the lack of control I object to. I like to know exactly what my team is capable of. I can check the Decker's deck, his cyberware and his weapons readily enough. How do you check what spells a Mage knows?

One team I was on had a Cat Shaman who kept his knowledge of the Mind Probe spell a secret until we discovered him using it on us...a lot. That didn't end well.

All said, not got a problem with the mage's power levels, just with the lack of control over him.

What Decker lets you 'check' or otherwise fuck with their stuff?

Generally the type that has a skilltwitcher and a jackstopper shoved up their datajack, is in plasteel restraints with 2 APDS rounds fired clear through their skull. Anything less and they are holding back on you.

Back On Topic--I'd take the decker unless the mage is willing to leave a ritual sample behind for my friends to take care of while we are inside. Breaking into the middle of an Ares compound without a decker is going to be suicide. Either way, I foresee heavy weapons and smoke grenades, but at least the decker can unlock the doors for you.

Give me a mage with Control Thoughts.

We drive by club cyberspace looking for an obvious decker type.. mind control him.. and take him on the run with us.

ya need a hot babe mage for some heretofore unknown reason wears like a bikini as she goes into combat. Also to flirt mercilessly with your own team members when on down time. hots.

Nah, pick the decker. His deck + programs + ware are gonna be worth a lot more than the mages feeble meat body. So when you geek them, sell them for parts, and disappear the decker will give you a step up.

Unless the mage has a lot of foci, of course...

hots

I choose the toaster shaman. 'Nuff said.

You're making this into a choice, which with the proper fandangling shouldn't be.

Shaman of the Streets.

Full Magician, Computer 6, trode net (at first), then Datajack.

Rigger: Preprogramming with computer skill.

Hacking: Computer skill, can use Red-12 Hosts for 1,200/day to get -6TN to programming tests (read above) and 12 comp dice.

Shamaning: Spirits! Spells! All the worries that Deckers and Riggers have, but none.


Granted, you need Robotic Pilots for th Preprogramming, but you might be able to slip a custom vehicle by the Gm with one in it, and there (I can't recall) might be a cheapo vehicle with one at R1 that you can strip out.

For my play style, which is usually quick and stealthy, and especially if breaking into a secretive facility owned by a fraggin' triple AAA, I'd like a Decker so I could actually move through the doors, not get spotted straight away by security cameras, set off alarms and get myself into a whole lot of trouble.

There would probably be the occasional stressful "geek the mage!" or "ARGH SPIRIT! RUN", but I'd still prefer the decker.


For the sake of playing and number crunching though, I'd prefer the mage, because you can all play together without having to wait for the GM to play through the Matrix actions with the decker, while everyone else has to lie around and eat pizza. shocking.

That argument can be used for mages that have to do astral overwatch. Or have to banish spirits.

Deckers and mages have completely different roles in a run. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Oranges are better if you are trying to make a screwdriver, apples are better for cider. If the run calls for cider, an orange won't help.

GM's that bypass pizza time with NPC deckers are really missing a great element of the game and are usually to lazy to keep the party together.