So, it's bugged me for a while now that even though all the matrix skills are keyed to logic, that stat doesn't do a damn thing. Everyone rolls Skill+Program for all their tests. This may or may not be good for the health of the game, but it bugs the hell out of me, and I'm pretty sure it bugs some other people around here, too. Here's some ideas I was tossing around:

1) Hackers and riggers roll the logic attribute + the appropriate skill (computer, cybercombat, hacking, etc.) for using programs. The rating of the program equals the maximum number of hits the hacker can achieve, like the force of a spell limits the number of hits a magician can achieve on his spellcasting test.

2) Technomancers buy complex forms like magicians buy spells, and for the same cost of three build points or five karma. When the technomancer buys a complex form, he gets that form at a rating equal to his resonance. If his resonance changes, so do the ratings of all his complex forms.

3) Instead of using logic for using programs, technomancers use their resonance + the relevant skill for their complex forms.

I think there's the kernel of a bright idea somewhere in there, and I'm pretty sure I haven't found it yet. There's all sorts of holes to poke in that stuff, though. So in the course of your poking, if you could either tell me how to improve them, or justify to me why the stat keyed to all the matrix-related skills has no effect on them whatsoever, I'd appreciate it. And yes, I know that both software and hardware do, in fact, work with logic. I simply can't wait to spend the better part of a year coding a 6,000 program, great use of my time. So anyway, thanks muchly, all.

~Gelare

Disclaimer: I am extremely tired. Like whoa, moving in to college day. Forgive me if I made no sense.

Here's a thought for all you adepts/mystic adepts. Tired of not being all you can be in the matrix? Use "attunement: item" on your commlink. On second thought, maybe you can't; I seem to remember something like you can't use that power on an electronic interface.

You can't use it on anything controlled through DNI. Mostly negating any chance of using it for anything dealing with the Matrix. Things like smartguns are just fine as long as you're pulling the trigger. They even list smartguns in the karma table.

But could one, for example, use it for browse or spoof actions?

Foiled again!

Here was my proposed house rule (though I never implemented it). Successes on the hacking rolls etc. are capped by the Logic attribute. It parrallels an existing rule (spell force), it doesn't affect much at the low end of the game, or even general play, but it does mean that the greatest hackers out there are going to want high logic scores which is the slight flavour adjustment that you want. For extended tests, the limit caps the number of hits you can get per test. Like spell force, the cap does not apply to edge dice.

You can loosen the restriction a little and make it 1.5 times Logic. What this house rule does is enforce a greater range of ability, so that whereas average hacker with top notch programs wasn't much different to FastJack or Dodger with top notch programs, there's now more room to distinguish between them.

Someone here on the forum (maybe it was a mod of knasser's) that had matrix tests be Logic + Skill as you would expect and the number of raw hits (not net hits) was limited to the Program rating. That way a program behaves exactly as a spell (where spells are limited by the force of the spell). I really loved that houserule, but I've never playtested it.

Someone else had another good rule that said that there were no program ratings, they just count has having the right tools. You roll Logic + Skill and if you don't have the right program in your commlink, you take the standard -4 penalty for not having the right tools.

nm

Here's what I use:

Hackers roll Logic + skill rating whenever they use their programs, but the Logic attribute is capped by the program rating of the action in question.

For example, if I have Logic 7 but a Browse program rating 3, I would only roll 3 + skill for the roll.

I dislike capping the hits themselves, because that extra variable is annoying to remember to double-check. As long as you remember that Logic is capped by program rating, program rating is capped by System, and System is capped by Response, all of your skill checks can be remembered pre-game.

But what if you have Logic 7/8/9+? Well, I assume that there are "mythical" System 7s and program 7s out there that would take a good deal of effort to procure. Or at least a lot of nuyen.

I've been using Program Rating +1 (+1, to let people without a specialized program have a go at using google) as a cap on a Logic + Skill test for a while now and so far it kind of works.


Also with the costs of program being as affordable as they are, every PC decker will have them at the highest attainable rating. That makes actually writing down numbers on character and NPC sheets kind of moot.

The alternative of going with Logic + Hacking + Program rating, might be workable although explodes the number of dice rolled, making hacking on the fly easier but being neutral in most other cases.

But ultimately I am leaning towards either dropping the program ratings completely or halving them and having them add to the logic + hacking test.

The sad fact is that the venerable hacker archetype has been reduced to a script kiddie. Anyone with the cash can be a hacker now, no stats required. If you want a stat based hacker, play a technomancer.

It's sad.

Personally, I'm a fan of the programs = tools and you use Stat+skill+tool rating. Like every other test involving rating based tools.

Matrix test are designed for rolling something+something so rollign something+something+something leads to too much dices.

Capping the hits with Logic is an interesting options I haven't thought of.
After playing around with statistics capping with program ratings works quite fine and don't have a too big impact on probabilities. The hacker still needs programs with high enough ratings, but also needs a high logic.

You'd need have Nodes roll with System + Firewall + Program instead of the mishmash of system + program, or system + firewall they use atm to prevent skewing dicepools in favor of deckers. Where IC and Agents get their pools though is anyones guess.

Forcing hackers to use Logic+Skill for using programs actually weakens hackers/technomancers in the sense of being well-rounded. Now they have to have a good logic, and that BP for the used logic could have been put in another attribute. Having good programs is now less useful. There is no point anymore to code your own rating 6 or higher programs unless they are stealth, ECCM, or other programs not requiring a DP. All of the sudden getting that top secret rating 8-10 program isn't so great. Oddly enough, I actually like the skill+program. In the current system, logic is still used by the hardware and software skills.

The highest Logic someone could get at chargen is 9 with a cerebral booster and exceptional attribute. That comes at a huge price though. Most people will probably have a logic attribute 5 or 7(cerebral booster). Then, most people will have a 4 in the hacking skills and a 6 in their best. So, you are looking at anywhere from 9-13 dice normally. That comes out to about 4 1/3 hits on average. So, it really only pays to get a program with a rating 5 on programs dependent on a DP. 5 is probably the most amount of hits you would need for a successful hacking attempt anyways.

The nice thing about having skill+program is that the character doesn't have to have a high logic. This way, a street sam, shaman, covert ops specialist, and those characters that don't necessarily need to have a high logic, can still effectively use a commlink. For some characters, having that high logic for commlink use could come at a great opportunity cost.

If you are going to go with the attribute+skill system, I would suggest something that makes higher program ratings more useful. Also keep this in mind, the ability for a starting character to get 9+6=15 dice on a hacking test is quite insane. In the previous system it was 10-11 for the max DP at chargen, except maybe for technomancers, but that is due to their abilities. One other thing this does is give hackers 2 more dice on average if they have a cerebral booster. Which, every hacker I played would most certainly have. Nodes, agents, pilots, etc. will have the same dicepools they always have had. There is also the possibility of the extreme example of the hacker getting 15 dice. This would make it 4 more dice. Hackers and nodes are now imbalanced.

Do realize it is now like the hacker having rating 7 programs at chargen.

Or you could, as I suggested, just use the Logic attribute as a cap. An inducement to keep it up in the levels we'd expect a quality hacker to have, but not normally going to affect game play that much and doesn't change the mechanics or the dice pools. Also, very, very, simple.

Makes sense to use Logic as a cap to the number of hits... a really knowledgeable / smart person will be able to wring far more from a program regardless of the program's rating than someone who is less on the ball.

Then again, capping vs the program rating could work too. No matter how good you are, you can only do just so much with substandard tools.

I would dare say it really depends on how you see the situation. Are you capping vs ability or vs tools?