I have a certain problem player that always tries to come up with new and exciting ways to screw the system, thus ruining the experience for my other runners. For him, it's not about playing the game, it's about being as uber as possible.

How do you other GM's deal with these problem people?

His spell idea:
(I'm not going to copy+paste the whole e-mail as it's way too long)
Liquid Form
Type: P ~ Range: T ~ Duration: S ~ DV: (F / 2) + 1
Pretty much exactly as it sounds. He got the idea from the "Turn to Goo" spell, which has a DV of (F / 2) +2. In liquid form you can move on walls and ceilings, force your way through small cracks and escape any bond. You can also use the "Engulf" critter power.

Now I don't need ideas on how to deal with this spell, as I've already got it worked out. But this is a pretty good example of the crap he tries to pull. We've been going back and force about this liquid form spell for about a week now and it's getting old. Is there any decent way of just getting him to shut up?

I guess asking him to leave isn't an option? As craptacular as it sounds, some times a player just doesn't mesh well with the rest of a group and, when that happens, it's sometimes up to the GM to speak to that player (not during a session) and give them two options: stop the shenanigans or leave. In my experience, most players try option one for a while but quickly fall back into old habits. At that point, I usually talk to them again and if I can get them to see the difference between how they played right after our first talk and their old habits, sometimes I give them another shot. Other times, I direct them to the door. One doesn't like having to do it, but if it's damaging the game for the rest of the players, then one often has to do what one doesn't like.

One also likes talking in the second person.

I've talked to him about it before, back when we used to play D&D. Asking him to leave just seems a bit extreme.

Plus, if I ask him to leave, our group is slimmed down to 3 runners. (I know that sound pretty weak, but the players don't want him to go for the same reason.)

My personal approach is much of what Dash has said. I will first do my dead level best to explain the issue to the player in question, and ask them to tone it down.

I've had pretty decent results with it, and once you explain it from the angle that they're causing the game to lose its fun for everyone else, they tend to either shape up at least a bit, or leave.

I hear you on needing players, though. It's a tough situation.

He sounds like he just wants to play something on the order of a superhero rather than a street punk. Don't beat him up, we have those games too, just tell him what the expectations are for YOUR game. Tell him you want the game to be "street level" not "superheroes level".

Have you considered that perhaps the players do not want the guy to leave because secretly they enjoy the uberpower he brings to the group? Are you really sure he is ruining the experience for them? Perhaps they know that they can rely on him to lay the uberiority on if the GM throws them into a tough situation. Just something to consider: it happen in a Spycraft campaign I was in.

I wholeheartedly agree with that, I think it just causes way too much bad blood letting players come up with custom stuff. As awesome as custom spells are, everyone ends up feeling cheated because "so-and-so got his gimmick, but I didn't get my gimmick". Even letting players convert Sustained spells to Permanent spells causes all kinds of grief.

And once you allow custom spells, then you have to allow custom weapons, then custom armor, then custom decks, and on and on. House rules are ok if kept to a minimum, but there are enough spells in SR4+Street Magic to cover everything.

This is just a sneaking suspicion, but this player wouldn't happen to be rather young, would he?

I don't see any reason to allow this spell. This particular player apparently thinks magic in Shadowrun is very similar to DnD magic. Tell him such things are not even possible with Shadowrun magic at all, at least maybe until the mana levels raise. It is very important to not let stuff from DnD creep into Shadowrun. It will totally and completely run any possible distinct Shadowrun flavor your game could have into oblivion. If he wants to create a twinky character then he can do so within the rules. This twinky character will then most likely be a one trick pony and thus you can account for this in game. If problems persist with this player he needs to be taught a lesson, either inside the game or out. Preferably inside the game and done so believably within the game's flavor and rules.

The worst munchkin I have ever met was a beardy 37 year old Warhammer grognard. God I hated that guy. Between that and my experience working at a hospice/nursing home, I have learned one very important thing; rule bending and maturity apparently have very little to do with eachother. I've seen old ladies who reportedly been best friends for over a decade quit speaking to eachother because of one suspecting the other of somehow being involved in cheating on bingo night. That's right: a bingo conspiracy. And one of them was dying of cancer at the time and they still argued over this shit. I swear to god munchkinry and tabletop conflict goes beyond all age barriers.

Make sure to ask your players to tell you honestly if his stuff bothers them. I tend to build.... more efficient characters than most of the rest of my group. I do my damnest to not turn on the super boots unless it's necessary. So far, I have saved people from burning 3 points of edge, and several other things like that. Other than that I play it down, stay in the background, and do my best to offer suggestions that let them shine.


Chris

Doesn't TTG give the target a barrier rating? Don't think pool of slime, think Gumby! So a personal or touch version, while negating forward locomotion, still wouldn't allow vent flowing type action.
. . . Yeah, just say no.

Ohh the spell is allowed...

though the threshold is (body + strength + reaction + agility + 4)

Edit:

You get an effective physical stat (on eachof those) equal to net hits...

so you limp biscuit 1 in all physical stats MIGHT be able to change himself into an ooze with physical stats of one... if he over casts.

Robot: sic Doc Funk on 'em. They'll stop real quick.

<sighs>

Looking at the "Liquid Form" spell above leads me to questions....

What kind of fluid flows up ceilings and walls? Is he turning into Flubber?

How is this mass of liquid moving? Like an amoeba?

How do you "engulf" with a mass of fluid the size of a metahuman? I'm assuming that mass remains constant, only changing form. Even a troll size body of fluid isn't all that big, maybe enough to fill most of a bathtub.

I could see this spell being allowed just to watch him cast it and lay there on the ground capable of all the mobility of water. I think he watched "Sky High" too many times. And apparently I have too.

Bah, let him have it. Make sure all your NPC's have it too. Living in a world where everyone can spontaneously turn into a puddle would be extremely Salvador Dali. Embrace the overall wierdness of it until you can no longer stand it and start a new campaign. Or just tell him no. Whatever works.

Oh no. He's not getting the spell, at least not the way he wants it. I'm dumbing it down a lot and making the DV so high it won't sound appealing anymore. And if he still insists I'm just going to tell him no. The spell was more of an example of how munchkin-y this guy is. He just gets off on being better than everyone else.

I feel that I need to keep the custom rules idea a bit open, though. The SR4 rules have a few problems, a few things that would let my munchkin take over the world. I'm not the type to just say "no" to a new idea either, but with this guy I find myself explaining one idea in to the ground. Like explaining anything to a baby, no matter what I say all I get back is "Why?".

"Because I said so" just seems like too much of a GM cop-out.

A good thing to players coming up with too powerful things using the rules is :
- The last step of the rules is GM approval. I can say no just like you can choose the range of the spell.

Another thing I like to remind players with potentially game breaking ideas is :
- If such a thing existed, it'd be important enough to be mentioned in the rules or fluff (for example, if Agent Smith Army was a common Matrix trick, it'd have been written as such)
- If such a powerful thing existed, everyone (corps, runners, crime syndicates) would try to get their hands on it (and if a runner can, everyone can). Then everyone would try to protect themselves against it (nuclear weapons are too powerful... let's build anti-missile systems!). So if you accept it, the player shouldn't be surprised if a lot of people use it, or if everyone knows how to prevent it/protect themselves from it.

just tell him he can only flow like water - that is only down.

Sure, he can get out of handcuffs and such but he would just become a puddle on the floor.

When under influence of that spell he will have severe allergy: Fire & Heat.

He also risks damage from being mopped up and separated into smaller portions (taking damage equal to the mass lost).

he cannot defend himself in any melee (in this we include a dog lapping up the water, it's an attack that essentially eats him.)

Give it a duration of 1 combat turn and a recovery (reforming of the body) of one *lost* combat turn after the being liquid for 1 combat turn.

It'll work great as a get out of cuffs spell but not be like the movie The Blob.

If he doesnt like that let him have Turn to Goo and turn into a petrified statue since thats what he's basing it off of and in 4th ed lacks a liquid component.

Still, I'd just say no. You're asking for trouble. But if you MUST...

Make it like the critter form spell : you don't change the clothes, only the body. So the water form of the mage will be trapped inside his clothes.

I often feel trapped inside my own clothes...

My feeling in the general sense is that if something is that great of an idea, someone will have already done it. (Though I do recall Jeb Bartlet shooting some holes in that theory.) That's not really an argument for or against allowing the spell, just against the assumption of players that by creating a new spell, piece of gear, contact or some other type of mf-ery that they can break the game.

Perhaps take the time-honored approach of asking "Do you want to need it?"

Any player wanting some crazy-powerful, uber spell, weapon, or combo will likely run it by the GM. Get them to point out how powerful it is. Then say "Do you want to need a spell that turns you into movable liquid?" (or whatever goodie they're seeking at the moment). If they say yes, then obviously that character wants to be put in situations where they must be able to turn into liquid or perish horribly (the rival gangers drive about in a garbage truck to dispose of foes after they blast them...). If they legitimately want to need power, then it is your responsability as a GM to throw unreasonably powerful threats back at that character.

It works pretty well for splitting between the sheer powergamey stuff and legitimate ideas that people come up with that may offend at first glance.

It works best around the other players, so that they can chime in as well. "Hey, you better be able to cover us all with that spell, or you'll lose your entire team when the GM pulls the old 'no escape' room trick." Let peer pressure say no rather than you as the GM... all you needed to say was "Do you WANT to need that?"

Cheers,

Andrew

Make it available to every NPC. Yup, that's a discourager to a powergamer AND a egalitarian form of power escalation for all parties.


(Disclaimer: I'd still suggest sticking to RAW, but hey... thats just me)

Just because players are capable of upping the ante doesn't mean the opening bid is one penny, so to speak. In any game, there is a 'ground floor' of horrible shit past which players cannot expect it to get any easier.

wonder twin powers activate!

How old is the person in question?

22-ish.



Farlanghn is one of my players, btw.

Kinda figured that.

What you need, friends, is a written Constitution for your game group. This Originating document would clarify things like expected power level and be the basis of all rules and laws in your game.
Articles of this Constitution would explicitly address the intended tone of the games and state quite clearly the group's rules about PvP, sexual content, sexual violence, doing evil for evil's sake, and other controversial subjects.

This Constitution would also provide a procedure for allowing a non-canon item to be added to the allowed lists, for which I would recommend a requirement of a 2/3 majority vote by secret ballot with GM veto powers and a 3/4 majority required to overturn a GM veto.

My advice is to slap him upside the head, tell him to stop being a dumbass, and acquiesce to the group's and the GM's preferences. That's the point of a social game like RPGs; you're all there to share in a story, not to "win."

What worked for my group before was pretty simple: karma for creativity. If someone in the group can come up with a really clever way to overcome the mission, while using the materials on hand and RAW, that's worth extra karma. Make sure the group knows about this policy and use it, it's a good carrot to lead the group without the stick of just saying "No!".

You might also try to challenge the player. "I don't like this spell, but see if you can figure out how to do what you want within the already written rules." Maybe help him brainstorm a little to try to accomplish some of what he wants within the rules. But sometimes, a GM just has to say "No!"

I've had people show up in a D+D game I was running, wanting a first level wizard to have a Displacer Beast as a familiar, because that's what they were allowed in someone else's game! I actually had to take him aside and show him the rules and let him know the other GM was frickin' nuts.

The majority of available roleplayers in my town remind me of this guy. You just have to establish that there are rules for a reason and just because something doesn't say it's not possible it doesn't mean it is. Turn to Goo is just that, it turns something to Goo, if you then want to attack with it, well, Sustain TTG and cast Psychokinesis and hurl globs of one enemy at another enemy. Doesn't matter if the Goo gets damaged you hated that guy anyway. Teach him/tell him/beat it into his thick damn head that you can make REALLY cool characters in SR with crazy gimmicks that don't smash the game. If he feels the need to have really cool gimmicks and stuff make him figure out how they would work by the rules, not by finding the holes where the rules don't explicity forbid crazy fucking ideas that aren't remotely supported anywhere in the rules either.


There is a guy in my town that I used to play DnD with, and as I noted earlier on this thread I tend to make very powerful but strictly by the rules characters. I then try to stay in the background and hold back unless it's absolutely necessary to but on the super stuff. So, if the DM/GM misjudges a monster or something else we don't have to smack the magic rewind button or all make new characters. I can just step it up a level or two and even things out. I also make sure to let/facilitate others shining. I also always play characters with a very high log/int in SR or Int in DnD so I can legitimately use convoluted tactics. Anyway, this guy played with us for a few months running. Made a Desmodu(crazy bat thing) Paladin and constantly fought with our DM for every scrap of power he could get. There is an item in one of the sourcebooks that is an extendable grappling hook. He wanted it to be able to shoot the hook up to it's maximum distance, lodge in an enemies head and pull him up to them/them to him with an autograpple so they couldn't get away.

:WARNING EXPLICIT:
Also, an evil priest harmed him(as the spell) at one point, he decapitated the priest and used his head and body to smear blood all over the guys room, ripped up his bed and sheets, tied it all together and set it on fire, once it burned down he urinated and defecated on the ashes. He then proceded to literally scream and yell when our DM told him that completely shattered his Paladin's Code. He also literally had his character walk over to the wall, sit down, and not do anything during one fight because the monster used a special ability that he rolled a one to resist and he lost his weapon.
:EXPLICIT OVER:

So, yeah, don't indulge people like this. That was the last time we played with him and I saw him again recently he said exactly this about DnD "Yeah, I learned alot about making effective characters from Chris. He's really good at it, but he doesn't even approach my skill level anymore because I found out that any character you make becomes way more effective if you just make stuff up to add to him."

So.... please don't encourage this. There are enough bastards in the world already.


Chris