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Hmm my other thread got me looking is quickening worthless (sure it aint really subtle...)


Quickened Increased reflexes force 10 (starting mystic adept, once they learn quickening)..

Spend 20 karma to quicken (you have to spend force, can spend up to twice force) (the spell now has 20 extra dice to resist dispelling / breaking through ward etc... (so pretty much not going to get dispelled / disrupted) ( I am certainly willing to say it is as durable as most cyberware would be...

Now you effectivly have Incease Reflexes 3 which would have cost you 5 of your magic points.. for 20 karma... (much cheaper then the 5 magic points)...

Likewise for 20 karma each... raise all of your stats (you need) to the augmented max of 9 ... (here you may need to spend 10-20,000 nuyen on ritual material to assure maximumn successes..... but still 20 karam and 20,000 nuyen is ALOT cheaper then buying the magic points to get the powers... (or cyber/bioware to do the same)...

Even on a single person 'do it yourself' scale quickened spell actually (if subtlity doesnt matter) is actually of decent way to go IF you max out the force you can resaonably safely then max out the karma spent to quicken...

Hmma actually through in a moderate enchanting skill... and make your own ritual materials (availabity is silly otherwise)... and a few extra days for each upgrade and an extra few thousand nuyen (depends on what level you buy the raw materials radicals, etc... I.E. how much time you spend enchanting..) but you can spend up to another 10 karma (to make it a total of 30 karma still cheaper then any power points woudl cost you to get the same)... and you now have an extra 30 dice (isntead of 20) and even your force 10 spells is pretty much Never getting dispelled / disrupted from barrier and is going to break through anything you walk through...

Sure you stand out, but only to 'astral' people and probably overall no more then somebody warez'd to get the same level of buffing would..

For somebody that can do it 'themsleves' quickened spells ARE more effective an upgrade (and damn near permenant) then cyber/bio/adept powers...

And if somehow you can Buy quickening semms likely (if you can foci, which somebody has had to spend karma on to build) (admitedly it is only 1 karam now for the creator but still it is clear a 'busniess mage' has some way to get karma from doing busniess... so a busniess mage, could also get karma through doing high end quickeings..) (the cheapest foci is ¥1000 so if we go with this, a karma point (from an enchanter) will cost ¥1000 (and that presumed the only thing they are charging your for is 'their karma' on a rating one foci, that they so crappy they can get materials for free)....

30 karma from a 'busniess mage' could be as low as ¥30,000 nuyen, if you compare to what the low end tailsmonger are charging, but this guy is an initiate (to have quickening) and so multiple it by 10....

¥300,000 nuyen ... for an essence free damn near forever (well unless the mage you pay tracks you down (has to be able to percieve the spell astrally) and choses to cancel it... (it is a trust relationship...)

once again for a 'player' it would really only be a 'self done' option since I dont see a player trusting an NPC with the abliity to turn off their cyberware at will (then again... they allow the hacker to be near them smile.gif .... and more importantly not too many mages would want the average players running around, with an astral link back to them...

(though while it could be analysed and see 'how buffed them' I do not belive sustained spell leave an aura behind... they casting would leave a 10 hour aura behind... but sustained you dont leave a trail behind...)

But for NPCs.... I think 'quickend spells' is a very viable way for the corps / criminal outfits / etc... to protect their best...

It is MUCH cheaper then cyberware/bioware/adept powers.... and can be made damn near unbreakable.... for actually less karma then it would take to 'buy the power' (or buy the essence lost... (if you could) ... or often even cheaper then you could raise the stats with karma (to their natural limits, much less their augemented max).
Ol' Scratch
Skipped past most of your math and commentary, but for the most part, yes, Quickening is useless for a runner unless they have Extended Masking and Flexible Signature. And then, only as long as the Quickened spells don't exceed his limits. Otherwise, you're nothing but a vulnerability on a run; a single ward sets off the alarms and can potentially leave you stuck behind if you can't break through. Your only option is to sit there and twiddle your thumbs, or waste the Karma you blew on it.

All the number crunching compared to other options is completely moot next to that.
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
a single ward sets off the alarms and can potentially leave you stuck behind if you can't break through.

This is my single greatest frustration with sr4 magic rules.

This also exposes the flaw in the thinking for a suit getting quickened reflexes: They would need ever ward they passed through pre-screened for them. Since an exec with that kinda change to throw around is gonna be in and outa wards all the time...
I would pay the team's mage to not quicken spells on me.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
I would pay the team's mage to not quicken spells on me.


I'll have to use that as a threat. wink.gif Don't make me quicken your ass.
Since wards are volumes of protection, do you notify the creator of a ward if you recast your spell once you're inside the ward?
QUOTE (Buster)
Since wards are volumes of protection, do you notify the creator of a ward if you recast your spell once you're inside the ward?

QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 6 2007, 09:59 PM)
Since wards are volumes of protection, do you notify the creator of a ward if you recast your spell once you're inside the ward?


You do if you want to take the spell back out of the ward, but not if the spell will only be used within the ward.
If you have Masking+Extended Masking, a mage with quickened spells should be able walk right through wards correct?
Ol' Scratch
Nope. That would require Flexible Signature and having assensed someone's aura who has "authority" to pass through. Extended Masking just makes sure your spells and foci are covered with Masking. (Hence you needing all three.)
Looking again at the ward description, it says that only astral forms and spells passing through a ward are blocked/detected. A masked spell is invisible to the ward and therefore does not need flexible signature. Therefore to pass your spells through a ward (quickened or otherwise), you need either Extended Masking or Flexible Signature, but not both.
Ol' Scratch
Masking is only proof against assensing. Wards don't make assensing tests. You're still a mage, you're still dual-natured if using astral projecting, and all your foci and sustained/quickened spells are still active foci and sustained/quickened spells whether they're masked or not.
Are wards always opaque to vision? Are there invisible wards? Is it possible to see or otherwise detect an invisible ward using astral perception or some other ability?
Wards are invisible to mundane perception, but clearly visible to astral perception.
I guess the best strategy is to use Anchored spells and switch them off while crossing into a ward, then switching them on again as soon as you're in. I don't have my book in front of me, but I think you can add anchoring to your quickened spells for that effect. You don't even need masking, extended masking, or flexible signature.
Is sustaining a spell and the -2 dice it incurs, really THAT big a deal? Most of the spells we are talking about sustaining aren't things you need to have permanently or can't just be cast through a foci...

Its kinda like hacking on the fly for me. Yeah, probing is safer, but the downside to on the fly isn't THAT bad...
QUOTE (Redjack)
Wards are invisible to mundane perception, but clearly visible to astral perception.

Except, IIRC, a Masking Ward.
Alarm wards, masking wards, polarized wards (from the right direction), and trap wards all are hard to see. They all take a assensing + intuition (3) test to see. (Polarized wards only on the transparent side).

Only masking and polarized wards are still solid. Alarm and trap wards are not solid, however trap wards will solidify into a solid barrier after being passed.
Big D
Meh. See the other thread. Abuse Ally Sustainment. smile.gif

Then, you can turn off your buffs, walk through the ward, and recast and hand it back to the ally. For most races, you'd be soaking 4 Drain for Reflexes and only 2 Drain for each stat. It would take 3 rounds to do all of them (plus a few more to clean up the signature), and I doubt most runners would bother with anything but the most important ones (drain stats, reaction, body).

Oh, and the ally carries whatever spells you feel like, especially if you have full masking, because it just tele^H^H^H^H metaplanar shortcuts across the ward after you.
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