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Hartbaine
Anyone out there have a 'system' for how they determine how much runners should get paid for a run? Sometimes it seems like too much for the things they go up against and other times it seems like too little.

I'd like to find some common middle ground and low ball them from there (since Mr. Johnson is always out to low ball the runners anyway at least until about Loyalty 4 or so).

Also, I was considering, since our game has been particularly plot driven lately, to give the characters a simple bounty run. They haven't been allowed to get nuts with their hardware in quite a few sessions so I thought the ol' ghoul bounty in an old section of steam tunnels might be fun for em'.

What does Seattle offer for ghoul bounties? I was thinkin' like 150¥ - 175¥ per confirmed kill. It's not something you'll make it to the top with over night but it'll pay your rent when your still living a low lifestyle. (Which all the PCs are)
venenum
Systems guide to paronia had some info on it. Check the community projects area for it.
SinN
What I like to do is estimate a price based off what the Johnson "Knows" theyre going to go up against. If they feel they need to re negotiate, ill allow it based off of the personality of the Johnson.
Irian
It's not "System's" Guide to Paranoia, it's "Serbitar's" smile.gif And I don't quite agree with the prices given there...

But generally it's hard to say and the prices depend on the group.

Edit: My fault, the Text itself is called "System's Guide to Paranoia", but the author is Serbitar, so you'll have more luck finding it with this name.
Hartbaine
Very useful. It provides a foundation at any rate. Thank you.
venenum
Your welcome.
Fortune
QUOTE (Hartbaine)
What does Seattle offer for ghoul bounties?

Nothing anymore. You'll have to take a road trip to actually get paid to slaughter ghoul families.
Zhan Shi
I'm not sure about SR4, but I think in SR2 and 3 the general rule was that one run= one month's lifestyle cost, modified by succeses on a Negotiation test.
imperialus
I think the best rule of thumb (that's come up before) for starting runners at least is to give them enough money per month that it's not worth it for them to steal a Ford Americar/Murcury Comet once a week and sell it on the black market.

If you want an actual number I'd say for a starting team 5-6K per month each. Each time the groups street cred goes up by one double the amount they make.

In planning out a teams advancement here is the formula I would use.

CODE

Street Cred      Pay/month      Karma/Month
                  (x1000)
   0                 5-6            10
   1                10-12           20
   2                20-24           25
   3                40-48           30
   4                80-96           35
   5               160-192          40
   6               320-384          45


How long a team stays at a given street cred "level" is up to you. Street cred of 6 really only belongs to the gods of the shadow scene. These are the folks that Harlaquin has on speed dial when he needs to get some shit done. They're on a first name basis with Fastjack and Damian Knight owes them "favors". I can't ever see a campaign of mine reaching that level but it does allow for it.

Most importantly regardless of what "level" you base the campaign at this seems to keep the sams and riggers power level roughly consistent with adepts mages and other karma hogs. If you see one group pulling ahead of the other it is fairly easy to correct it within the framework by offering more nuyen.gif and less Karma or the other way around. It's a guide not hard and fast rules but I've found it useful.
Gelare
QUOTE (imperialus)
I think the best rule of thumb (that's come up before) for starting runners at least is to give them enough money per month that it's not worth it for them to steal a Ford Americar/Murcury Comet once a week and sell it on the black market.


Yep, that's always the guideline I use if I want to know whether I should tell the Johnson to frag off when he gives the pay offer.

QUOTE
These are the folks that Harlaquin has on speed dial when he needs to get some shit done.  They're on a first name basis with Fastjack and Damian Knight owes them "favors".


Man, that sounds so damn cool. Anyway, I think the karma is a little high, especially on the low end, but I don't really have anything to back it up with other than a vague suspicion, so, y'know. Meh. Pretty neat chart, there. Thanks for that.
imperialus
QUOTE (Gelare @ Sep 10 2007, 12:13 AM)
QUOTE (imperialus)
I think the best rule of thumb (that's come up before) for starting runners at least is to give them enough money per month that it's not worth it for them to steal a Ford Americar/Murcury Comet once a week and sell it on the black market.


Yep, that's always the guideline I use if I want to know whether I should tell the Johnson to frag off when he gives the pay offer.

QUOTE
These are the folks that Harlaquin has on speed dial when he needs to get some shit done.  They're on a first name basis with Fastjack and Damian Knight owes them "favors".


Man, that sounds so damn cool. Anyway, I think the karma is a little high, especially on the low end, but I don't really have anything to back it up with other than a vague suspicion, so, y'know. Meh. Pretty neat chart, there. Thanks for that.

I do tend to run my games a bit karma heavy, praticularly at the begining and I average around 2 runs per month. Like I said it's a rough guideline. I don't think it would break down if you advanced Karma at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 but at that rate it takes a long time for mages and TM's in praticular to get their footing. If your players are going to dump all their karma into one or two skills or do nothing but initiate over and over again then it does turn into a lot of karma but if you can guide them into diversifying their skills a bit more then it makes for some much more well rounded characters.

Edit also my own "sweet spot" is somewhere around street cred 3. This gives the PC's enough money to live a high lifestyle with money left over to buy toys and gives the mages and adepts room to grow too. As the campaign goes on the longer they stay at a given level the more likely I am to increase cash and decrease karma.
Gelare
QUOTE (imperialus)
I do tend to run my games a bit karma heavy, praticularly at the begining and I average around 2 runs per month.  Like I said it's a rough guideline.  I don't think it would break down if you advanced Karma at  5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 but at that rate it takes a long time for mages and TM's in praticular to get their footing.  If your players are going to dump all their karma into one or two skills or do nothing but initiate over and over again then it does turn into a lot of karma but if you can guide them into diversifying their skills a bit more then it makes for some much more well rounded characters.

/sigh. Poor TMs...

Yeah, me and mine used to play D&D, with its "max out all your skills all the time or you shall fall pray to the SOTA wolves!" mentality. One thing I really like about Shadowrun is if you want to diversify characters, it doesn't involve taking such a major hit to everything else you do.

Of course, I'm a major power gamer. With those Karma rewards I would, in fact, be initiating and increasing magic over and over again. biggrin.gif
DTFarstar
I'm assuming you mean Street Cred without the karma bonus Street Cred because someone with 60 earned karma has a street cred of 6.

EDIT: SR4 BBB pg 257

Chris
Aristotle
I've run it a few different ways, depending on the game I wanted.

1.) For "high power" games, where the runners are supposed to be the movers and shakers in the shadows, I've just made up numbers, often a bit higher than the job was probably worth. Whatever it took to keep the upgrades coming in at a steady clip.

2.) I've run a few games where the characters were (semi) legit and were mostly running on the job. In those scenarios I set a salary and that is pretty much what the runners make regardless of what the job entails. Congratulations, you make 90k a year, 70k after taxes, and your on call 24/7. Feel free to make more if you can, but not at the expense of your employer's reputation.

3.) For a more "street level" gritty (Mel Gibson's Payback) sort of feel I tend to take the average costs of all of the runners' current lifestyles (this works best if the players don't know you are using lifestyle as the baseline, else they can try to cheat the system) multiplied by the number of runners and then multiplied again by 1.75. I assume they'll use about .25 of that .75 on the run, leaving them with .5 more than the average lifestyle to save or buy upgrades. This assumes one major run a month. Smaller, additional, runs always pay even less. This has lead to some runs paying less than they reasonably should, although it tends to turn the players into scroungers looking for any means of pulling in a little extra cash. It works for the sort of game I am running.
imperialus
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
I'm assuming you mean Street Cred without the karma bonus Street Cred because someone with 60 earned karma has a street cred of 6.

EDIT: SR4 BBB pg 257

Chris

yeah... I use street cred a bit differently.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
I'm assuming you mean Street Cred without the karma bonus Street Cred because someone with 60 earned karma has a street cred of 6.

EDIT: SR4 BBB pg 257

Chris

...but usable only up to their Charisma rating.
deek
I've tended to talk with my players before hand. Based on the frequency and power level flow they were going for, I adjusted karma and nuyen levels based on that.

At present, we have planned for 2-3 years of gaming with these characters, meeting twice a month. So, I give a base karma reward of 10 per session, regardless of what goes on, plus anywhere from 2-8 karma based on session goals. As for nuyen, I have kept it pretty slim, focusing on them being able to cover their lifestyle and maybe net 10,000 - 20,000 nuyen per month.

If I hear that they are wanting some expensive gear, I will either put that in a mission where they are trying to get it, or put it in the hands of opposition. So for me, there is no set table I go off of, just a basic understanding of what the specific group wants to complish with their characters. That then gives me a framework of what to shoot for.
Hartbaine
QUOTE
...but usable only up to their Charisma rating.


Only bonus dice are usable. You can have a street cred of 15 but if your charisma is only 4 you can only pull out 4 bonus dice for social pools that involve using your credibility to your advantage. For all intents and purposes though, you still have an effective Street Cred of 15.

Obviously keeping it is difficult since Runners are usually burning it to lower Notoriety.

At least that's how it reads to me.

Speaking of... can you burn it to lower public awareness? Or do anything to lower public awareness like laying low, faking your death, etc...

QUOTE
At present, we have planned for 2-3 years of gaming with these characters, meeting twice a month. So, I give a base karma reward of 10 per session, regardless of what goes on, plus anywhere from 2-8 karma based on session goals.


Wow. My PCs get about 4-6 Karma per session and no more than 10 or so when they complete an entire series of runs along a common theme. Our current runners have been played through 6 successful runs so far (and one camping trip) and only have 20 total karma under their belts. Heh.
Fortune
Isn't your Public Awareness based on your current Street Cred?
Hartbaine
QUOTE (Fortune)
Isn't your Public Awareness based on your current Street Cred?

Street Cred + Notoriety /3 (round down)

Street Cred and Notoriety (added together) act as bonus dice for the Knowledge Skill Test involving whether or not someone knows you also.
Fortune
Yep. I was responding to this comment of yours ...

QUOTE
can you burn it to lower public awareness? Or do anything to lower public awareness like laying low, faking your death, etc...


If PA is tracked based on the current Street Cred + Notoriety, then when you burn SC to lower N (lowering both), then PA would automatically be reduced.

As for your suggestions as to how it is lowered ... they probably adequately reflect some of the various ways that the 'burn SC to reduce N' mechanic works 'in game'.
deek
QUOTE (Hartbaine)
Wow. My PCs get about 4-6 Karma per session and no more than 10 or so when they complete an entire series of runs along a common theme. Our current runners have been played through 6 successful runs so far (and one camping trip) and only have 20 total karma under their belts. Heh.

Heh...yeah, its pretty aggressive, but that is what my players wanted to do for this set of characters. At the frequency we play, going along a normal progression (of 4-6 karma per session), the players would really get bogged down on slow advancement. Granted, its not for everyone, so I am not condoning our method.

As a side note, I do control the power level by training availability/costs and nuyen. So, while the characters have a lot of karma, its not like they can just buy a ton of skills or enhancements. They still need to track down trainers and equipment...they just tend to have a pretty big pool of unallocated karma so they can plan a little better...
Dashifen
QUOTE (imperialus)
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Sep 10 2007, 01:08 AM)
I'm assuming you mean Street Cred without the karma bonus Street Cred because someone with 60 earned karma has a street cred of 6.

EDIT: SR4 BBB pg 257

Chris

yeah... I use street cred a bit differently.

Can you describe your version?
imperialus
well basically the difference is that street cred is something that I award to players. It works somewhat like edge but refreshes far more rarely. In line with the BBB it consists of their "rep" within the shadow scene and underworld in general. For example someone with a street cred of zero but with a run or two under their belt is still considered a greenhorn by just about everyone. Really only their contacts even know who they are.

Street cred is awarded based on performance, or at least perceived performance by a team. Everyone on the team has the same street cred and it can go up or down (even into negative numbers) based on how their runs go.

the scale basically looks like this

-3 Pariah. You've committed a screw up that is truly aw inspiring. People know you, but they also know that powerful people will pay good cash for your head on a plate. Leaving the country seems like a good idea.
-2 Write-Off. You've screwed up big time. Even your fixer is unlikely to return your calls. People with means to do so want you dead. Chances are skipping town is your best bet
-1 Fuckup. Johnsons are reluctant to work with you, jobs are going to suck and generally be few and far between. Damage control is an order.
0 No rep, You're either a relative unknown just starting out or you've done something to tick some people off. Nothing that can't be fixed but you'd probably want to get on that before things get worse.
1 Streetsmart. Johnson’s and fixers are starting to take notice. You've at least proved that you won't completely fuck up jobs.
2 ShadowPunk. It's starting to look like there is something to you. You're a regular team in your fixers stable and he knows you can be trusted to be discreet and efficient. The smaller streetgangs know that it's not worth their time or broken bones to screw with you.
3 ShadowRunner. You’re a pro. The jobs come fast and furious and you likely spend most of your time working for favorite Johnson’s. You’re pretty well known locally and for the most part well liked.
4 Veteran. By now the Johnson’s are competing with each other to hire you. You can’t exactly write your own paycheque but you’re defiantly moving into a sellers market. Everyone but the major crime syndicates knows you’re not someone to be trifled with. You probably have dirt on or favors owed from some fairly important figures though not likely anyone with much influence beyond the metroplex area.
5 Prime Runner. You’re top of the heap now. Probably one of the best runners in Seattle. Some people are even starting to wonder why you haven’t retired. Yakuza Oyuban and Mafia dons (not to mention some important corporate figures) are in your pocket.
6 ShadowGod. Fastjack, Hatchetman, Captain Chaos, You. Pretty much that simple.

Now as for how it works mechanically things are a bit fuzzier. First of all you can at any time add your street cred to provide a bonus to a die roll just like edge. It only applies to social tests with appropriate underworld figures. You can also lower the groups street cred permanently (or at least until you earn it back) to pull in favors with underworld figures and do stuff like get something that is otherwise beyond your reach, make some evidence or witnesses “disappear?, ect. What exactly you can get from this depends on your street cred level. With a street cred of two you might be able to get a tricked out van with armour, a turbocharged engine ect. A street cred of five might net you a T-bird. Pulling in these favors lowers your rep though, if it doesn’t happen often your cred usually bounces right back, but if you’re calling in favors left right and center people start to look at you as a mooch.

It’s more art than science but it works for me.
Dashifen
Still very cool. I might chat with my players about this one. Could be a good set of alt-rules, too, if they ever get fleshed out more. How do you factor notoriety into this or is that handled roughly as by the book? Can you still blow street cred to reduce notoriety?
kzt
We always preferred to not have anyone on the street know who we were and what we had done. So we had no street cred based on who we were. But we could be VERY convincing when we needed to. And our usual clients did know who we were and what we had done, but they didn't talk about it either.
imperialus
Notoriety is still pretty much by the book... I've been toying with the idea of ditching notoriety completely and expanding the street cred system so that your rep can be represented according to whatever factions are in the game as well as a general street cred representing the oppinion of factions that you havn't had dealings with. For example you might have an overall street cred of 3 but effectively have 2 with the Mafia but -1 with the yak's and 4 with Renraku. Important corps could also be worked into it.

One very important factor is that all that matters with streetcred is percived competance. This means that a team could completely blow a run, kill the guy they're supposed to be extracting, make a big scene and end up with their misadventure splashed across CNN but if they smooth things over with the Johnson and they otherwise have a reputation for good work then their rep might not take (or not take as big of) a hit.
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