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ZorbaTHut
I have several players with very high-quality fake SINs. I'm curious about what sort of things a high-end fake SIN might fail on that a low-end one wouldn't, besides just "oh look I rolled the dice really badly". With all the things I can think of - trying to get into a high-security military facility, etc - just having a SIN isn't the hard part, everything else is. Even with air travel, I doubt you need a high-level SIN.

I'd kind of like to start exploiting SINs more extensively, but so far I just haven't bothered - they've almost all got level 4 or above, and I simply haven't been able to justify saying "yeah, the police in this suburb are really, really careful about people having the right SIN". To make things even harder, I'd rather their first failure not be catastrophic - I'm looking for something along the lines of "well, you don't have a valid SIN, so you can't get into this top-secret military facility when you thought you'd be able to just walk right in. Sorry! Guess you'll just have to go home." which, for obvious reasons, is problematical.

Suggestions?
The Jopp
QUOTE (ZorbaTHut)
"well, you don't have a valid SIN, so you can't get into this top-secret military facility when you thought you'd be able to just walk right in. Sorry! Guess you'll just have to go home."

Having a fake SIN wont open every door like some magic skeleton key. Fake SIN’s willg et you through the daily hassle of being identified as a regular citizen and getting by the police checkpoints and such. Just because a SIN’s rating is high doesn’t make it a “get out of jail? card.

Getting into any kind of high-security area would most likely include a combination of any of the below:

Retinal Scan
Fingerprint Scan
Voice Identification
Restricted access list (Who are allowed)
Cyberware scan (Middle rating but a LONG list of restricted/illegal)

Sure they have a SIN, but are they on the list? Do their fake SIN include all their ware? Do they really want to walk into building “B? flashing their SIN when they are about to do something illegal in the building (checking visitors logs might be useful after the incident by the corp).

If they have planned everything, hacked the system, inserted the SIN info in their system and done the paperwork and then after the mission dumped their SIN’s then I’d say it’s ok.

I would stress though that the fake SIN list in SR4 is a bit dumb as those are for long-term SIN’s and I would cut prices for those that want quick fake SIN’s that would stand up for one-two days scrutiny at most.
Sma
In previous editions failing a sincheck, triggered a question-answer session that ran off a opposed skill check. Computer systems simply glitch from time to time, so that a even a legal SIN would have to go through this process. This makes failing a check from time to time not catastrophic.

Draconis
This came up briefly in another thread. In my experience with SR4 high quality SINs are rather cheap. So your problem tends to crop up often.

Um SINs that allow access to top secret military facilities aren't generally available on the open market no matter what "rating" you have. Look ma, I'm now an admiral in the Bolivian navy.

A SIN is correlated info in various databases. If you don't have info in "key" databases you're never going to be allowed in. The more databases you're in generally the higher the rating. But here's the caveat, the system is abstract, so while you can have a rating 6 and have data in say the DMV, a utility company, social security, etc etc of the more common databases that would allow you to sleaze past airport security, if you haven't got a hit in the DOD database you're never going to get onto that military base. That's GMs fiat.

The upshot is I would mark certain high security SINs special access. I would also probably give them limited uses (roll randomly add a modifer based on rating) before they become useless and just fail or even worse get red flagged; "detain user, use of force authorized", depending on areas accessed. The SIN can only stand so much scrutiny by the system before it's found out.

I.E. if you use a SIN to get into a building and then start a gunfight you can kiss that SIN goodbye. It's probably been red flagged.

Voila, real life uncertainty. Will that SIN you used last run get you in the building or will it immediately notify security?

Of course this could all be incoherent gibberish. I've been up all night, sleeeeep.
Aaron
I've found that since the dice pools for SIN verification are so low, the whole procedure is a dicey situation (no pun intended, but now that it's there I stand by it).

I'm happy with the situation. It allows me to inject tension into, say, a border crossing when I want it, and just handwave it if I don't. Also, the failure rate of even a Rating 6 fake SIN is enough to keep them disposable, which is the way I think it should be.
Buster
QUOTE (Draconis @ Sep 11 2007, 09:33 AM)
This came up briefly in another thread. In my experience with SR4 high quality SINs are rather cheap. So your problem tends to crop up often. 

I think you're confusing Fake SINs with Fake Licenses. Fake SINs are very expensive costing 1000 nuyen per rating point.

If you're properly paranoid, you'll throw away your SIN after each job and since most beginner jobs only pay a few thousand nuyen, you're essentially working for karma for the first few runs.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Draconis)
Of course this could all be incoherent gibberish. I've been up all night, sleeeeep.

...actually not biggrin.gif

This is the way I have done it in the past, particularly in 3rd ed where a reliable fake SIN was about as expensive as a luxury car (when Street Index came into play).

Usually for a given mission the team would be handed disposable ID sticks to basically get them into an installation, fool border guards, etc. Provided the J was on the level, they would be informed the IDs would only be good for a limited amount of time. (this also put the team "on the clock" so to say).

If things were hosed and a fire/spell fight ensued, yes, the SINs were immediately red flagged. "man why ain't the door opening when I slot my stick...?

As to military grade, I don't consider that GM Fiat, it is just a given. I also apply this to high level access into AAA Mega facilities. Oh I'm sure you be able to get some form of SIN to get you on that base (after all the military does farm out some services to civilian agencies on lower security areas) but better keep some Edge/Karma Pool handy just in case.
Irian
QUOTE (Buster)
I think you're confusing Fake SINs with Fake Licenses. Fake SINs are very expensive costing 1000 nuyen per rating point.

Fake SINs are very cheap now. In SR3, a Level 4 SIN was also just 4.000¥ - but Level 6 was not the end then smile.gif A Level 5 SIN was 25.000¥, Level 9 even 90.000¥

6.000¥ is a real bargain for the best faked SIN that exists smile.gif All praise to the 2nd crash, that made things very easy.
kigmatzomat
I generally don't let low-rated SINs have Licenses. There are too many checks and cross-references for a weak SIN to let you carry a gun. By the same token, any combat-type cyber requires a pretty solid SIN to let you board commercial aircraft or cross a border with sensors.

A newly minted weak SIN might be able to survive for a few days with a License, as long as no one does any serious verification (meaning you have appointments and they know you're coming armed).
deek
QUOTE (Aaron)
I've found that since the dice pools for SIN verification are so low, the whole procedure is a dicey situation (no pun intended, but now that it's there I stand by it).

I'm happy with the situation. It allows me to inject tension into, say, a border crossing when I want it, and just handwave it if I don't. Also, the failure rate of even a Rating 6 fake SIN is enough to keep them disposable, which is the way I think it should be.

I thought that as well, but most of the SR4 Missions adventures have an example of standard border crossing tests and its not just SIN vs. Scanner, there are some other factors involved, like Charisma, IIRC.

I've used that in my games to give the PCs a better dice pool and avoid the "dicey situation". Without that, I agree with you completely!
Irian
What IS low-rated? 3? 2? 1? 4? 5? 6 without Charisma 14? I searched really hard, but there seem to be no values for the average ID checker... What does a cop in his car have? What does an airport have?
Problem is, that a failed ID test can very quickly end a shadowrunner's life, so I personally think, that the differences are really a little bit to small between 1 and 6.
deek
Here is what a "quick" border crossing in SR Missions consists of:

Fake SIN Rating + Charisma + Etiquette with a threshold of TR/2.

Failure means you have to pay 300 nuyen to get across.
Glitch means it takes longer than normal and pay 300 nuyen.
Critical Glitch means one piece of forbidden or restricted gear is confiscated and 500 nuyen bribe must be paid.

Teamwork tests apply if crossing as a group.

I think that these rules can be used as a basis for general security checks as well, but as you can see, this is not an opposed roll, just a check... It has worked rather well for our campaign.
MaxHunter
our group tends to "flesh out" fake SINs. i.e. your fake SIN carries an identity, a job, a place you live in, car license, everything. The players have a borad idea about what they fake SIN says and what they can do / say / carry with them.

Rating reflects the depth of the crossreferencing and dataplanting involved in making the SIN, not the actual level of access to security sites the SIN has. What is more, the more reliable the SIN is, the more commonplace the identity it carries. Fake SIN for army generals or ultrasecret researchers tend to and are checked and rechecked too regularly, needless to say they require access to highly dangerous databases to be manufactured in the first place.

This is why when the runners acquire / plant fake sins for a job, those tend to be temporary ones and most probably will become invalid after the run has taken place and security gets to check what had just hit them or, if unfortunate, at some time during the run itself.

The trend among the players in my groups is to have a good fake SIN for normal life and another, cheap one to go about doing legwork and generally while "working" but not during the "shooty" part of a run, then, they are SINless. The most paranoid runners have a couple more, preferably another good one which owns the retirement money account and an unused one that noone knows about ready in some locker with a pistol, some nuyen, a medkit and a one way ticket to another continent.

Cheers,

Max


kzt
QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Sep 11 2007, 09:00 PM)
and an unused one that noone knows about ready in some locker with a pistol, some nuyen, a medkit and a one way ticket to another continent.

The way that they describe the SINs being checked, the one in the locker would be worthless at most 6 months after you got it. Unless you are having someone buy groceries, gas and pay rent with it like a normal person would, it won't look like a normal person. Consider having a credit card that you got an never used and your first use, two years after you owned it, was to buy a $2500 one-way seat on a flight out of the country leaving in two hours. Do you think this might get flagged by the credit card company as strange, suspicious or out of the ordinary? That's what failing a SIN check is, in addition to obvious things like your face not matching the one on file or using the wrong name.

People using fake IDs to gain access to aircraft or secure sites is a major terrorist flag. So you get moved to the "special screening" area, where they aggressively look for reasons to arrest you. In things like warrant databases, pictures of suspects. Then they check your fingerprints or retinal patterns to see if they match anyone else, living or deceased.
Cthulhudreams
Wouldn;t they just arrest you for using a fake ID? that is actually a crime in lots of places.
Draconis
QUOTE (deek @ Sep 11 2007, 05:42 PM)
Here is what a "quick" border crossing in SR Missions consists of:

Fake SIN Rating + Charisma + Etiquette with a threshold of TR/2.

Failure means you have to pay 300 nuyen to get across.
Glitch means it takes longer than normal and pay 300 nuyen.
Critical Glitch means one piece of forbidden or restricted gear is confiscated and 500 nuyen bribe must be paid.

Teamwork tests apply if crossing as a group.

I think that these rules can be used as a basis for general security checks as well, but as you can see, this is not an opposed roll, just a check...  It has worked rather well for our campaign.

Dude that's ridiculously easy and the penalties are way too low. Aren't SR Missions supposed to be run at cons generally? Which would explain the fact that they don't want to dwell on the border crossing aspect when you have limited time. While in a campaign there's no way in hell I'd make a border that porous or easily crossed.

Bah why not just pay the 500 nuyen and not even bother with the test? Lame.
Irian
Don't forget: These are the inner Denver borders. It's ONE town, people still have to live and work there. Shadowtalk in the old Denver Box mentioned, that aprox. 30-40% of the people who live in one sector, work in another. So crossing a Denver border isn't that hard to do.
The only strange thing: In the old box it mentioned MADs, etc

In Shadowrun, many cops are corrupt. I would suggest a threshold of 1 for a quick test (a cops stops your car for routine control), etc.
kigmatzomat
MADs weren't too odd in Denver. IIRC, it had a train system that went through the city. If you assume that each of the stations had a MAD system to detect weapons and that people with weapon permits get in a second line, it works pretty well.

However there were sections of the text that did contradict themselves, IIRC, regarding the security levels and ease of border crossing. I think that was in part due to the multinational aspect of Denver.

I'd expect that most border crossings, being roads, are equipped with chem sniffers over MAD or cyber scanners units. Detecting explosives at range/speed is far easier than picking a weapon or piece of implanted tech. You'd route entire swaths of vehicles into the slow lane for a more leisurely pass through the sensor tunnel and pick out the real problem children.

MAD scanners might still be used to get a general correlation between manifest, weight, and cargo. For instance, a MAD scanner can tell the difference between 15 tons of steel and 10 tons of cocaine+5 tons of steel.
Irian
No, my problem isn't, that there were MADs, but the question, where they are NOW? smile.gif It seems to be too easy to get through the border with weapons - perhaps fake licenses are expected?
kzt
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 12 2007, 12:26 AM)
Wouldn;t they just arrest you for using a fake ID? that is actually a crime in lots of places.

Once they can satisfy themselves that's it's a fake and not just a glitch. Which is why they start looking deeper to see if they should arrest you, as opposed to seeing if they should let you through. You have gone from innocent bystander to suspect, which is not a good thing. Particularly if you have anything interesting in your possession or luggage when they strip search you and carefully go through your luggage.

At the end I'd expect you are going to get on the plane or go to jail.
MaxHunter
...but the whole point of a fake sin is that people think it's real. Of course people would arrest you for trying to fly using a fake sin, but of course, for them to know it you have to fail your "fake sin" test before.

The point of an unused fake sin and the locker is this: the moment the drek hits the fan and the runner has to dissappear ASAP, can't trust anybody and the killers are on the way, he or she can flush his former fake SIN down the toilet, leave his former apartment and gear to the hit squad (in some cases activating the hidden bomb), pick up the new fake SIN not even his friends now about, use that two year old nanopaste container to change looks in the abandoned parking lot and immediately take a plane to another continent. I guess then it is get through customs or go to jail, but put in that situation either one would be an improvement.

Point taken that a SIN without any use in many months would strike as odd if anyone looked carefully. I suppose paranoid runners would worry about "updating" their failsafe fake SIN every once in a while. However, these paranoid runners I am talking about do pay an extra 10-50% for their chosen lifestyles which abstractly involves maintaining their stashes, some extra security measures and -now that you mention it- regularly updating their fake sin's. [yes, I guess that even if it never came up explicitly it would be included in the extra fee]

OT: One of these characters I really like is a Sioux ork who used to keep all his guns in the bathtub -which also meant he never had a proper bath- He loves guns and has made a point of salvaging "interesting" gear from the dead hands of well equipped antagonists. His collection has gotten so big now that he needs to pay extra nuyen for extra space and gang protection to stash his collection safely.

I don't know exactly but IIRC he has: two ruger superwarhawks, two predators, maybe a light pistol, a taser gun, a mossberg shotgun, a couple ak98s, a sniper rifle, a grapple gun, a grenade launcher, maybe 50 assorted grenades, a LMG, a Vindicator minigun and a recently acquired Panther assault cannon with half a cyberarm attached to it (don't ask)... and I am quite sure I am forgetting some. Most of this material was first used against the ork so I guess you can get a clear picture of the quality of his dermal plating.

... and before you mention it, the gang is a small time ork gang who are also armed to the teeth with more guns the ork has been getting for them, the temptation to steal his guns for themselves is minimal.

Cheers,

Max


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