Just a thought I had tonight.
How much as a GM do you give as a discount to your players when they win at an opposed negotiation test?
Do you give a standard amount off per success over the NPC's successes?
I.E.
500 nuyen off if you beat the NPC's roll.
Or do you give different discounts based on what type of gear the character is trying to get?
I.E
Guns and ammo 100 nuyen off per net success
Armor 200 nuyen off per net success
Cyber/bio 500 nuyen off per net success
Drones/vehicles 1,000 nuyen off per net success
I was thinking I'd do something like take the book price add or subtract the modifiers from P. 304 SR4 then for every net success the player gets take off 1,000 nuyen with a max of half off.
Thoughts, Ideas, Questions fire away.
Full Version: Negotiation
I think there's usually a modification of 10% per net hit, capped to 50%, although if you find that too unbalancing feel free to half it, and alter it depending on the situtation. Generally, though, the best way to keep such things from getting abusive is to give the NPC's higher bonuses on their negotiation tests. After all, paying more money is definitely an undesirable outcome for most Johnsons, so the players take a penalty to their negotiation tests. And of course, maybe the Johnson simply doesn't have the money.
In general, I'm wary about straight price reductions occuring from negotiation tests. I appreciate that the social adept has twenty dice to throw at the problem so he can always get clearance price, but throwing dice at a problem is generally not something to be rewarded as far as I'm concerned. Thoughtful throwing of dice, that's another story.
You could also have the negotiation test come before the initial price is set and roll the NPC's dice in secret, so the players don't know whether they're getting a good deal or not.
Or you can kick them and take their certified credsticks. Whatever.
In general, I'm wary about straight price reductions occuring from negotiation tests. I appreciate that the social adept has twenty dice to throw at the problem so he can always get clearance price, but throwing dice at a problem is generally not something to be rewarded as far as I'm concerned. Thoughtful throwing of dice, that's another story.
You could also have the negotiation test come before the initial price is set and roll the NPC's dice in secret, so the players don't know whether they're getting a good deal or not.
Or you can kick them and take their certified credsticks. Whatever.
I generally apply the modifiers and then take off 5% for every net success up to 50%. My GM in the game I play in just generally has anyone we might negotiate with have about 15 dice. From the random street dealer to the guy who does inventory for the gang we work with to the random fixer/Johnson. Everyone outclasses me by about 5-6 dice.
Chris
Chris
I usually do 1k per net hit to either side, applied to the base reward for the Run. The Johnson usually has a cap as well (if he doesen't that means the runners are about to be set up).
It depends a bit on the base reward as well. If the base is 10k total, +1k per net hit is ok, if the reward is 10k per person, they can get +1k per person per net hit.
I don't have a set system though, it varies. Apply common sense, if the Johnson is willing to pay up to 200k then he might accept more than 1k per hit... perhaps as much as 5k.
It depends a bit on the base reward as well. If the base is 10k total, +1k per net hit is ok, if the reward is 10k per person, they can get +1k per person per net hit.
I don't have a set system though, it varies. Apply common sense, if the Johnson is willing to pay up to 200k then he might accept more than 1k per hit... perhaps as much as 5k.
This isn't going to really help you, more of a there's another way to do this kind of thing, food for thought really.
We started the campaign with job negotiations as usual, but then I hit upon a brilliant idea. A couple years ago we hired an agent to find and negotiate our runs, Jimmy No as a matter of fact.
I mean why should we do all the work? He's got more contacts and is a great negotiator.
So we get various job offers and at what rates they pay and we know that those prices where negotiated up to the highest we'd probably get. No die rolls, No muss, no fuss, never not been paid and never been screwed by or even talked to a Johnson. He gets an obscene cut though, 30% I think.
Of course it pains me to think 'ol Jimmy has made 3-4+ million nuyen while just doing face time but hey that's the biz.
We started the campaign with job negotiations as usual, but then I hit upon a brilliant idea. A couple years ago we hired an agent to find and negotiate our runs, Jimmy No as a matter of fact.
I mean why should we do all the work? He's got more contacts and is a great negotiator.
So we get various job offers and at what rates they pay and we know that those prices where negotiated up to the highest we'd probably get. No die rolls, No muss, no fuss, never not been paid and never been screwed by or even talked to a Johnson. He gets an obscene cut though, 30% I think.
Of course it pains me to think 'ol Jimmy has made 3-4+ million nuyen while just doing face time but hey that's the biz.
Those are some good thoughts
I like the NPC's have 15 or so dice as an idea.
the 5% per net hit up to 50% is good too.
One thing I see so far is everyone is talking about the negotiations for job nuyen what about the negotiations for gear?
That is more what I was wanting to know about the after the run you got paid now you want to get new or upgrade your toys negotiations.
Just some more thoughts keep going I'll read more after I get up later today as it is now 5am and time for bed.
Night guys
I like the NPC's have 15 or so dice as an idea.
the 5% per net hit up to 50% is good too.
One thing I see so far is everyone is talking about the negotiations for job nuyen what about the negotiations for gear?
That is more what I was wanting to know about the after the run you got paid now you want to get new or upgrade your toys negotiations.
Just some more thoughts keep going I'll read more after I get up later today as it is now 5am and time for bed.
Night guys
NPCs with 15 dice??? Who are we talking about? Lofwyr?
Sorry, even the sample fixer contact from the sourcebook has only 10 - and that's very good. A typical dealer would perhaps have Charisma 3-4 and Negotiation 3-4, giving him 6-8 dice to roll (ok, that more than the typical shadowrunner has *g*).
Sorry, even the sample fixer contact from the sourcebook has only 10 - and that's very good. A typical dealer would perhaps have Charisma 3-4 and Negotiation 3-4, giving him 6-8 dice to roll (ok, that more than the typical shadowrunner has *g*).
| QUOTE (Draconis) |
| This isn't going to really help you, more of a there's another way to do this kind of thing, food for thought really. We started the campaign with job negotiations as usual, but then I hit upon a brilliant idea. A couple years ago we hired an agent to find and negotiate our runs, Jimmy No as a matter of fact. I mean why should we do all the work? He's got more contacts and is a great negotiator. So we get various job offers and at what rates they pay and we know that those prices where negotiated up to the highest we'd probably get. No die rolls, No muss, no fuss, never not been paid and never been screwed by or even talked to a Johnson. He gets an obscene cut though, 30% I think. Of course it pains me to think 'ol Jimmy has made 3-4+ million nuyen while just doing face time but hey that's the biz. NPCs with 15 dice are rare, but not impossible to find. A good Mr Johnson probably has at least 4 in negotation, +2 for specialty, and perhaps as much as 5 in charisma, unless he's and elf in which case 15 dice is no problem. Then there's social adepts, and cyber/biopware that provides bonus dice... I'd say 10 dice is minimum for a professional Mr. Johnson, and 15 are some of the best. Someone with 20 is the legendary kind I think, and might as well go into corporate politics instead of wasting time by dealing with runners. |
That is basically what the corps do when they hired Mr Johnsons.
And for you that's a Fixer. As long as he can be trusted, that's great - although you could make more if you had a good face yourselves. And really, Johnsons can fool fixers too, and then you won't get paid. He's less likely to be crossed though if he has a good rep, and you don't.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Sep 12 2007, 09:59 AM) |
| That is basically what the corps do when they hired Mr Johnsons. And for you that's a Fixer. As long as he can be trusted, that's great - although you could make more if you had a good face yourselves. And really, Johnsons can fool fixers too, and then you won't get paid. He's less likely to be crossed though if he has a good rep, and you don't. |
Yes that's exactly what corps do. It's a good idea. They bring their pinch hitter to the table, so do we.
He's slightly more than a fixer. We legitimately hired him, interview and everything.
Why wouldn't we trust him? We're a cash cow. We're talking about the fact that he makes on a low end run 150,000 nuyen a week for making a few phone calls from his jacuzzi.
More than likely we could make more. I mean it's obvious we'd make 30% more per run. But that 30% buys lots of nice intangibles. Besides the Triad and corp connections he's got that we don't, there's the security.
Anyway we're doing just fine with two sams, a mystic adept, a mage, and a hacker. We're not a light touch crew so dragging along a dedicated face would just slow us down.
It's true that having an agent was only good for the mid range of our career. Now we often execute our own runs, like our current one, that don't often involve money.
First, I set the base price in my head/notes. I generally plan on giving/taking 5-10% per net hit. All of this is decided in advance, but based more or less on my view of the job and the person offering it. There is almost always an upper limit above which they can not go.
But the originally offered price is almost always much less than the secret base price, because players really hate it when the numbers go down after a negotiation. Sometimes the offered price is close to the base price, sometimes it's insultingly low, but my players all know that the initially offered price is a fluff device and the secret base price is the real crunchy fair price.
They know what I'm doing and they trust me to pay fairly for runs, or to only screw them for good plot reasons. We have a good understanding of what pay scales to expect before starting a campaign, because we've talked about it.
But the originally offered price is almost always much less than the secret base price, because players really hate it when the numbers go down after a negotiation. Sometimes the offered price is close to the base price, sometimes it's insultingly low, but my players all know that the initially offered price is a fluff device and the secret base price is the real crunchy fair price.
They know what I'm doing and they trust me to pay fairly for runs, or to only screw them for good plot reasons. We have a good understanding of what pay scales to expect before starting a campaign, because we've talked about it.
| QUOTE (Irian) |
| NPCs with 15 dice??? Who are we talking about? Lofwyr? Sorry, even the sample fixer contact from the sourcebook has only 10 - and that's very good. A typical dealer would perhaps have Charisma 3-4 and Negotiation 3-4, giving him 6-8 dice to roll (ok, that more than the typical shadowrunner has *g*). |
...In the short time I GM-ed SR4 had a PC elf Social/Control Mystic Adept who could get 20 or more.
If it's possible for PCs, then it better be possible for NPCs.
Anyway, closing that can of rockworms...
After a lot of discussion in previous threads on this topic I have adopted a top end limit that the J is given to work with. I also use the 10% per net hit rule. If the PC's negotiation test exceeds the J's top end they, get no more than the maximum he is authorised to offer. So far, this has worked rather well, I've had no complaints from players/characters, and I am satisfied as well.
I have explained to my players that they can make whatever the hell they want as a social adept, but there are some hard rules. Johnson's can't give you more money than they have. You might get info or something, but if his total maxes out at 5 net hits, then having 15(exaggerated for effect) net hits really doesn't do anything but make the Johnson think you are out of his pay grade and damn that fixer for wasting his time.
Chris
Chris
| QUOTE (Irian) |
| NPCs with 15 dice??? Who are we talking about? Lofwyr? Sorry, even the sample fixer contact from the sourcebook has only 10 - and that's very good. A typical dealer would perhaps have Charisma 3-4 and Negotiation 3-4, giving him 6-8 dice to roll (ok, that more than the typical shadowrunner has *g*). |
Ok you think 15 is alot??
Let me tell you about 2 characters I know of.
1 is a player of mine who rolls on average 25 to 28 dice.
the other is a character I made who has 8 Cha. and Nego. of 5 +2 for bargining that's 15 as a starting character with his exceptional Cha. quality he can hit 9 normal max and 12 aug. max toss in a better Nego. at 6 which I think is the max for skills and this guys rolling 20.
Now no offence here but even your avarage player who makes a face character is going to at least have a 5 Cha. and a 4 Nego. (figureing in the idea he takes the skill group) that's 9 which makes 15 not that big and bad.
Lofwyr IIRC is a western dragon by the book his Cha. maxes out at 13 without the exception attribute quality 14 with it then add in a skill of what 10? (the great dragon example in the book has sorcery 10) add in a spcialization +2 and you have Nego. 12 add it all up lofwyr could have a 26 with out magical pumping.
Just some things for you to think about as 15 is not all that big a deal.
...then there's Lady Meggan Grande, 4th ed version: Negotiation (Bargaining) DP of 34 (36 with her First Impression quality). And she's human
(..and that's before throwing in her 7 Edge)
(..and that's before throwing in her 7 Edge)
I'm lucky that I am not the GM who has to tell them to go away and powergame somewhere else 
Personally, I think, that NPCs with 15 dice are more at the upper end of the spectrum. Perhaps the players will meet a social adept who has more than 15, ok.
But sorry, 25 or 28 dice is simply ridiculous. There are possibilities in the rules, that you can do, but shouldn't do
And I can even imagine how (and esp. WHY) someone would get 36 dice in SR4... But that's the great thing with roleplaying: You can always decide with whom you want to play!
Personally, I think, that NPCs with 15 dice are more at the upper end of the spectrum. Perhaps the players will meet a social adept who has more than 15, ok.
But sorry, 25 or 28 dice is simply ridiculous. There are possibilities in the rules, that you can do, but shouldn't do
And I can even imagine how (and esp. WHY) someone would get 36 dice in SR4... But that's the great thing with roleplaying: You can always decide with whom you want to play!
Meh. As a GM, I've not seen powergaming as a problem, actually. When I've had characters tweaked to the max in some type of activity, all that means is that they are awesome when they need to do that. Problem comes when they need to do other things. We have a street sam who reliably gets about 25 dice to shoot his pistols. He kicks ass in combat. In his first session, he got lost trying to find a place (glitched navigation roll) and generally had trouble at other activities, because of a limited skillset. He spent his first several sessions of karma on non-combat-related things. It worked out, really.
| QUOTE (Irian) |
| And I can even imagine how (and esp. WHY) someone would get 36 dice in SR4... But that's the great thing with roleplaying: You can always decide with whom you want to play! |
...Lady Meg is fortunately an NPC and about the toughest personality (from a social standpoint) you will ever meet in my campaign world. In a sense she is my version of a GD without the scales, wings, and attitude.
I've always done 5% either way per net hit. Equipment I halt at +/- 50%, but for shadowruns I do not apply a limit.
Now that people as well as myself have made our points on 15 dice for negotiation not being excessive I'd like to take a minute and toss out once again the main point of this topic.
What do you as a GM allow for discounts on stuff your players buy or upgrade either before or after a run is finished and the have cred to burn?
I'm thinking with what has been said so far that 5% per net hit makes for a nice discount but may go as much as 10% per net hit as I tend to be a bit more on the nice side towards my players.
Before you ask yes I pay well for runs and give good karma as I want my players to have fun playing the game rather than the old standby of working the system to grind out the proverbial levels.
If their characters get too advanced then I say ok he's retired make someone new although a couple of my players are like me they have like 10 + characters to play with so as to keep the game fresh for them.
What do you as a GM allow for discounts on stuff your players buy or upgrade either before or after a run is finished and the have cred to burn?
I'm thinking with what has been said so far that 5% per net hit makes for a nice discount but may go as much as 10% per net hit as I tend to be a bit more on the nice side towards my players.
Before you ask yes I pay well for runs and give good karma as I want my players to have fun playing the game rather than the old standby of working the system to grind out the proverbial levels.
If their characters get too advanced then I say ok he's retired make someone new although a couple of my players are like me they have like 10 + characters to play with so as to keep the game fresh for them.
| QUOTE (Casazil) |
| I'm thinking with what has been said so far that 5% per net hit makes for a nice discount but may go as much as 10% per net hit as I tend to be a bit more on the nice side towards my players. |
Perhaps a 10% could be used when negotiating with contacts over a certain loyalty level? Kinda like 'Preffered Customer' Status, or as a way of thanking the characters fo rsaving the guys hoop a while back.
Unless the Johnson is a regular contact that the characters use frequently and has a very high loyalty rating I'd keep it at 5%. Johnsons are usually the hardest nut to crack when it comes getting more scratch, since I've considered that the Johnson is getting paid a good deal for setting it all up and acting as the middle man, the less he spends on the Runners, the more he gets to keep for himself.
Just a thought.
If the NPC wins the test, does the price *rise* over the baseline?
There's a lot of different scenarios. If you're selling used gear, then the best you can get, is the price at Weapons World. There can and should be a wide negotiable range for black market transactions... but bounded by "I can get it from the other guy for a thousand, so why should I pay you more?" If you're buying at Weapons World, the clerk will only sell at the listed price no matter how much you razzle-dazzle them. If you're buying secondhand, then again there's a negotiable range with the same limit: someone else willing to pay more.
Negotiation should matter more when the deal is nonstandard and hard to compare directly with other offers, eg "What if I pay $10K nuyen, plus 100 shares of Evo stock, plus a service from my bound spirit... if I offer all that, will you also upgrade the ammo?"
Negotiation should also matter more when there are significant unknowns. If you can persuade Mr. Johnson that this job is riskier than it seems, and thus the other team who'll do it for only 10K is likely to fail, then hiring that other team is not a better option for his purposes, so maybe you can get him to pay you more. If it's a very standard run - eg taking one truckload of cargo from Seattle to San Francisco - then the risk factor is well-established and you can't get a much better deal than the "going rate".
Huge dice pools should, in general, get "diminishing returns".
There's a lot of different scenarios. If you're selling used gear, then the best you can get, is the price at Weapons World. There can and should be a wide negotiable range for black market transactions... but bounded by "I can get it from the other guy for a thousand, so why should I pay you more?" If you're buying at Weapons World, the clerk will only sell at the listed price no matter how much you razzle-dazzle them. If you're buying secondhand, then again there's a negotiable range with the same limit: someone else willing to pay more.
Negotiation should matter more when the deal is nonstandard and hard to compare directly with other offers, eg "What if I pay $10K nuyen, plus 100 shares of Evo stock, plus a service from my bound spirit... if I offer all that, will you also upgrade the ammo?"
Negotiation should also matter more when there are significant unknowns. If you can persuade Mr. Johnson that this job is riskier than it seems, and thus the other team who'll do it for only 10K is likely to fail, then hiring that other team is not a better option for his purposes, so maybe you can get him to pay you more. If it's a very standard run - eg taking one truckload of cargo from Seattle to San Francisco - then the risk factor is well-established and you can't get a much better deal than the "going rate".
Huge dice pools should, in general, get "diminishing returns".
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| If the NPC wins the test, does the price *rise* over the baseline? |
That's why I keep the true baseline price a secret. In the RP, the initially offered price is always worse than the true mechanical baseline price that the net hits will be compared against.
That way, the PCs can get a small improvement or a large improvement, but the price pretty much never goes in the wrong direction.
I do something similar. I have a secret baseline price, and an offered price. The PC must also offer a price. The winner of the roll modifies the baseline price by 10% per net hit in his direction, but the price will never be better than the one he offered. I do, however, penalize the player (give the NPC bonus dice, actually) if his offer is out of line. Usually about +1 die to the NPC per 10% of the baseline that the PC's offer deviates. (Though I usually eyeball it, rather than doing the math.) It's slightly more complex than some, but it makes negotiation more interactive (since the PCs must make an offer also), and it allows for the possibility of the PCs making the first offer. (They could say "That run will cost you 80k", rather than waiting for Mr. J to offer them 30.)
I tend to do a scaling effect.
I tend to use diminishing returns and also will normally spread the hits into different catagories. (with input from the players on 'what they wanted').
If they are all for 'pure more money' then it will normally be something around:
I rarely have 'hard numbers' but will adjust based on the mission / reason / motivations of the johnson.
Sometimes even if the group wants 'more money' and only more money, the Johnson just won't have it (no way the mission could be worth more nuyen)... however, with extra sucesses they might get it up front, additional 'items' instead of money, etc.
But in general 2 net hits is NOT twice the improvement of 1 net hit...
I tend to use diminishing returns and also will normally spread the hits into different catagories. (with input from the players on 'what they wanted').
If they are all for 'pure more money' then it will normally be something around:
I rarely have 'hard numbers' but will adjust based on the mission / reason / motivations of the johnson.
Sometimes even if the group wants 'more money' and only more money, the Johnson just won't have it (no way the mission could be worth more nuyen)... however, with extra sucesses they might get it up front, additional 'items' instead of money, etc.
But in general 2 net hits is NOT twice the improvement of 1 net hit...
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