What is paydata? In the abstract general sense it's data you take from someone or something that is valuable - presumably that people will pay for, thus, paydata. But I just don't get it. Obviously, you can storm into a lab and bust out some research data - that's paydata, clearly, although I'm still wondering how Johnsons make sure you don't just copy it and sell it to someone else. But in the sourcebooks, the fun people at Jackpoint are always like, hey, I hacked this paydata off some shmuck's commlink, send me a tell if you want it. What kind of stuff is that? I guess I'm hazy on how the process of buying, selling, identifying, and obtaining paydata works - everything, in other words. There was a thread a little while back asking what paydata's worth, but I'd be happy just knowing what it is - the harder question, I'm guessing.

And oh yeah, side note, what's a shedim?

And on a major side note, why was the SR3 Matrix so much cooler than the SR4 one? I have hardly read more than little excerpts from the SR3 books, but Crimson Hosts? I don't have the faintest clue what they are, or even if they were interesting at all, but they were mentioned in System Failure somewhere and they sound cool. Gray IC? Cyberdecks worth millions of nuyen? Anything and everything having to do with Shadowland and the Denver Nexus? I know the Denver Nexus still exists (and Shadowland went to that big hard drive in the sky), but there's nothing about it. No one mentions it. Having the best cyberdeck in 2070 means having something with all rating 6's and then...you're done. The end. The SR4 Matrix is highly abstract, and I think that's the way the devs wanted it, but it's just not cool. I'm sure people will just tell me to wait for Unwired (and it's true, I should: I'm impatient), but what're the odds it'll really be able to upgrade the SR4 Matrix to SR3 awesome levels in just one book? Kinda slim I'd say. Thoughts?

I think a wide variety of information that you can hack from corporations falls under the paydata category. For individuals, it is more likely to be things like account information, SIN, and so on - think identity theft and credit card number thieves today.

I've just assumed paydata is anything you can get someone to pay for, and the term has become broadly applied to any information that is not broadly known of a commercial or otherwise sensitive nature. So corp spiders probably don't talk about keeping hackers out of the R&D programs, they talk about keeping the pigs out of the paydata trough. Same for government security spiders

Keep in mind, a lot of innocuous things like shipping schedules for even minor companies are worth something to someone. If you know when an office supplies shipment is coming in, you can hi-jack it or get hired on to the delivery force, fake a uniform or whatever. Anything YOU might pay for to help with a run info-wise is worth something to a fixer somewhere because he has alot of other clients and a network of other fixers who also might pay him for it.


Chris

About the paydata, well it's purposely made abstract so that the GM don't have to invent everything. Usually it is scientific research, ecconomical data (internal stuff), or anything worth blackmailing with.

Alot of people doesen't really have any paydata on their commlinks, while a novahot simstar probably have some dirt that "celebrity weekly" or whatever will pay for.

Most paydata will probably be from corporations though, and the best is basically what's the entire object of the run.

Now as before, there is usually little to prevent a team to extract the data, copy it, and then sell it to more than once scource. If done fast enough you could probably get several times it's worth.
However, there's a catch - professionality. Johnsons and those dealing in information usually expects those who work for them don't sell out, and if they find out they will take extreme measures to correct it. At the very best, the runners probably will not be trusted with such a mission again. Reputation is god.

Although some data does not diminish in value even if other people get access to hit - for example security information in a facility, if the info is to be used fairly quickly it doesen't matter if the team sells the info to anyone else interested (but if they're not careful they risk exposure to the target corp...

Shedim.. ah see Street Magic for details and stats. It's basically a bad form of spirit/creature... EVIL.

I ran through the old Matrix expansion book (3rd ed), and yeah you're right it was a fun read and explained things like ASSIST and DNI in detail that the SR4 book fails to, and had tons of programs and utilities for deckers.

Not to mention rules to prevent wired Sammies to being fast in the Matrix - a rule probably overlooked by SR4 team (or a bad error in judgement to allow Sammies super fast in AR).

However, the rules did seem overly complicated and detailed to me, and to remember all that while playing? Man, 4th ed Matrix rules are troublesome enough for me.

As for the rating 6 maks, that's for the available stuff.. it is hinted that governments and megacorps probably have access to experiental rating 7 programs and possibly higher... although remember all ratings and stats in SR4 was tuned down to avoid the inflation of RPG stats so common elsewhere (a very good decision, I don't want a +68 commlink!)


So cool stuff and lots of fluff? Yeah I really hope they get that, not to mention explain stuff to make the rules coherent and somewhat understandable. But we don't need tons of new rules to complicate matters.

I've a few thoughts about paydata myself. I can imagine there being two options - hack for paydata and then hope you can sell it, or get a buyer than hack it. The first would depend on the value of the data (including how many people are likelyt ob e interested), the difficulty of getting it, etc. Hacking a lot of very low security nodes would give you a chance for the first approach, but still no guarantees. The best bet is to hack for something very big, which is risky.

On the other hand if you are hired to hack something specific then it could be from a far lower security system. You also don't need to be quite so concerned about someone calling the Star when you try offering them illegal information.

As to 3rd ed, remember we haven't had the 4th ed matrix book yet. The rules in the core book are really more of a stopgap.

heh, the talk about simstars and dirty stuff on their comlink makes me think of the paris hilton "hack"

hmm, it just dawned on me that the very concept of paydata is kinda dark (i dont know if its dark enough to go dystopian but still). it shows that the access to cash or valuables of any kind have become so lopsided that you do not see people give away anything for free.

as in, if it has any kind of value for a third party, you sell it to him, not give it away. be it software, info, physical items or just about anything.

and if you cant pay for it in valuables, but have a good rep, you may get a favor. this is where contacts come in. not even they give it for free most of the time. more often then not, it will go on your favor tally, and some day that contact will come calling to collect. dont follow up on that, and your rep is dead.

hmm, i need to keep this in mind when i hammer out npcs and similar.

I wonder, though, if the nature of paydata is so abstract, how does a GM know when he's dealing with it? The hacker in my party has a tendency to copy the entire hard drive of any target he hacks, be it a commlink or a corp node. After all, the rules do say that both hard drive space and transfer speeds are crazy high, all the time. So then he's got this whole damn hard drive full of data, and it's up to me to figure out what's on it. What am I supposed to do?

Sure. Ergonomics and the simple fact that it would seem unpleasant to be using AR for hours on end continuously (the sensory disconnect would suck) would seem to favor desktop sort of interfaces in office environments.

Even if people still used flat-panel LCD monitors (or whatever the 2070 equivalent is), I doubt they would be using a personal computer. They'd likely just hook up a commlink. Or communicate with the monitor wirelessly (sure, it's not possible today, but it might be in 2070).

And, really, what's the difference between an AR desktop and a desktop on a monitor? I do think that VR would be bad for the workers, but AR? Probably not.

To stay on the orignial topic, though:
Often times, if a Johnson is asking for data, he's not asking for the data to sell it, he's asking so he (or whoever he's working for) can use it. He realizes that the person acquiring the data will keep a copy for himself, and there's nothing the Johnson can do about it. Now, sure, for a short period of time (directly related to how many eyes see the data), it will still be worth something meaningful. If both the hacker and the Johnson keep it to themselves, then it could still be considered paydata (for someone).

On a related note, paydata doesn't necessarily mean digital data. A face with no hacking ability whatsoever could potentially work his way into a social circle which knows something that a Johnson wants. A sammie could potentially intimidate the information out of a victim. This is still valid information, and a Johnson could potentially pay for it.

Keep in mind, unless your player is searching for something specific you can say he got 5,000 terabytes of information. Congratulations. Have fun spending the next 3 years sorting through it.


Chris

...I have to concur with the OP on the 3rd ed Matrix vs 4th ed. Yeah a little more complex but way cooler when you actually had to plug your head into the box and be concerned about load & I/O rates when that big ugly IC construct came sniffing around the node you were in.

...c'mon c'momn only 10% to go, 8%, 5 %... aww frag!.

until unwired comes around, how about this:

a personal comlink will hold 1d6 paydata "units", a corp node 2d6 or more.

value 1d6x1000 nuyen, availability 2d6, both rolled when a unit is attempted fenced.

Well KK, we seem to like different things. Personally, I hated Load and I/O rates, and manage Storage vs. Active memory. The SR4 system of "Active Memory" basically being equal to your Response is much simpler and easier to manage in a "live game" situation. As for I/O, it doesn't need to be that complex. For "story" reasons if you want a file transfer to take some time, roll a D6 and have it take that many rounds, or 2D6 IP's or whatever. The key is that the timing is chosen for dramatic story reasons, as appropriate.

there was a thread about paydata some time ago, I think I picked up some examples from there... I can't recall the original poster so I can't give this guy the proper credit, but I did copy& paste the paydata examples to my Shadowrun database. Here it is



These are just ideas, but with that "template" more, "fluffier" examples can be made up very easily.

Cheers,

Max

4th and 3rd are by far better than 2nd edition... one system was a whole session in and of itself sometimes.

I actually prefer 3rd editions rules over the 4th ones, they were more clearly defined, but then again as it's been said already I'm holding out for the new Matrix book and pass judgement then.

the SR3 style was introduced in SR2 with the book VR2.0.

problem was when one started to introduce stuff like persona bandwidth and all that crunch, to much for something that was more often then not handed to a npc as it could not be done on the go...

fun to read and contemplate tho...

When running an SR3 game, I ran across the problem of how do you find paydata if it's not the target of the run. By just the rules, a decker could fairly easily pull thousands of ¥ worth of data out of a system in the middle of a run for very little risk (seeing as how the system could try to find you even if you were just sitting there doing nothing -- you might as well do something). So what I did was I made a new program type that is basically a scanner program provided (or sold to you) by a fixer that would look for data that the fixer might be interested in. The rating of the program degraded pretty fast because what's important now might not be very important next week. So the more net successes you get determines how much paydata you get, and by making it it's own discrete program, you have the choice between loading up that medic program, or searching for paydata. Of course, when you have an actual paydata objective (rather than just extra cash), you don't need the program, because you already know what you're looking for.

This system also worked out pretty well, because a given fixer will just flat run out of money if you dump too much data on them too fast, so you have to space it out, and what's good for one fixer might not be worth anything to another.

why the new program?

i could have sworn that vr2.0 held just the kind of program. it just needed to be feed stuff like news and stock prices at regular intervals to be effective...

Paydata: Information in your possession that leads to getting paid. Said payment is usually in Nuyen, but can be in a near-infiniate variety (stock options, new gear, selling the left-behind equip of your enemies, ect.).

Shedim: Something you DON'T want after you. See also pgs. 154-155 of Street Magic.

I usually won't reply to these Matrix 3/4 ED stuff, but...

In Shadowrun 3Ed, Hackers are digital Stealth Adepts, and half the programs were useless, usually assuming you were: A.) In combat, or B.) Being Traced. When that happens, you might as well give up. Combat or tracing should never come up. You were, as my friend says, a very complicated universal lockpicker that took hours to resolve.

Does SR4 improve on this? Donno, haven't mass tested it like I have with SR3.

/Needed/ Utilies (SR3): Validate, Sleaze, Deception, Browse, Analyze, Read/Write. Anything else is butter on the scone.