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I was thinking the other day about SR4 stats for the virus that caused the Crash of '29, compared to modern (2070s) ice. Sure it was more advanced than everything else, but it was still 40 years ago.

In short, if a runner team found a drive storing a copy of the '29 virus, what would it's stats be?

I am guessing we can model it on a rating 2-3 agent with the appropriate software. I am figuring Agent rather than ice because it was free-roaming.
Prime Mover
Both virus's the first and second seem to have alot to do with creation of AI's. Mirage being thet first and well if you've read Emergence you realize all ramifications of the second.

Whats always bothered me the most was were did they originate from, both seem to have served a purpose. Advancing technologies world wide and bringing out new life in a new form. Always thought this seemed like something "Brightlight" of similar immortal being might do.

Ok stop rambling now, guess just IMO the virus's were so much more then simple IC programs, something well beyond stating not unlike first gen AI's they could pretty much do as they pleased bending and breaking the rules.
The Jopp
Rating 3 is professional rating for skills and would have been SOTA 2029 so it looks good. I would also give that agent the ability to self replicate unlike normal agents as it is a virus – making it dangerous as it can overload nodes. I think I would actually raise its rating but give it several low rating programs to reflects its average dicepools (and thus the ability to give it more programs so that it can adapt to a situation. After all, it is not just some DDOS attack virus it’s almost a self replicating AI (although dumber and therefore an agent)
well, by itself, the virus wouldn't really have any stats at all. it was designed to interact with modern-day Internet protocols, not the Matrix protocols that replaced them.

properly retrofitted (assuming that's possible)... i don't think it'd be much tougher than standard IC, honestly. my assumption is that most of SR's artificial decision-making code is based on the original Crash virus.
Seconded. The entire reason for the initial design of the Matrix as it was in 1st-3rd edition was to defeat the possibility of the '29 virus and related programs (all IC, attack, sleaze, spoof, etc, programs) from running willy-nilly over things. Given that the crash virus never came back even as an annoyance, I'd say that by itself it couldn't even do anything.
when Adarael seconds something, he really seconds it.
QUOTE (mfb)
when Adarael seconds something, he really seconds it.

What do you mean?
[ Spoiler ]
Unless, of course, Jack B Nimble was the Crash virus. Or The Deep Resonance was the Crash Virus. Or the Dissonance was the Crash Virus.

I'm of the opinion that statting the Crash Virus is like statting Spider or Dog. It is more of a plot device than a program.
The origins of the Crash Virus are revealed in the Dragon Heart Trilogy Books....

Mirage is the closest thing that survived that is related to the crash virus. I don't believe you can give stats to the Crash virus any more than you can give stats to any of the AI's that have appear in the SR universe.
QUOTE (SonofaSailor)
The origins of the Crash Virus are revealed in the Dragon Heart Trilogy Books....

You know, I have been furiously searching for a copy of those books, physical or electronic, to no avail. They don't seem to be in publication anymore, nor can I find them in second-hand outlets.
QUOTE (Malachi)
QUOTE (SonofaSailor @ Sep 14 2007, 12:51 PM)
The origins of the Crash Virus are revealed in the Dragon Heart Trilogy Books....

You know, I have been furiously searching for a copy of those books, physical or electronic, to no avail. They don't seem to be in publication anymore, nor can I find them in second-hand outlets.

I bought the entire trilogy on amazon. They had used books for about $2.00 each. It cost more to ship them to me then the books themselves....

The triliogy itself is mediocre in my opinion, but it does answer alot of plot questions as to the world up to that point.

So what did they say in Dragonheart? I mean, I AM going to ignore it in my continuous world of Shadowrun, because I decided long ago that the crash virus was proto-Mirage going nutty and trying to 'save' the USA (including splinter nations) from foreign threats. Which is also how I explained the lack of nukes going off - Mirage stopped them because they were a threat to national security. On one side, they were going to blow up the US. No go! On the other side, though they were US-based missiles, they would have triggered a larger nuclear exchange and weren't authorized by the powers allowed to authorize nuclear strikes.
(I like the idea of Mirage as a totally crazy dad that's trying to keep kids in line without the kids knowing he's there.)

So how did Dragonheart explain it?

Also, sorry for the double post. I was tired this morning.
Prime Mover
[QUOTE]The origins of the Crash Virus are revealed in the Dragon Heart Trilogy Books[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]So how did Dragonheart explain it?

I second that been while since read those books and unfortunetly my copies of both secrets of power and dragon heart trilogies were lost a few moves ago. dead.gif
Wouldn't a 40 year old compute virus have stats of 0? I mean I don't think I would be concerned if someone found an 5.75" floppy drive and plugged into my computer with every virus known to exist in 1987, let alone a punch card virus from 1967. Since they completely rebuilt the matrix after each crash, the systems are completely different.
Y'know, I read through the DH trillogy every couple years or so (cheaper than pills when you can't get to sleep), and I can't say I recall them explaining the Crash virus once and for all. I remember someone (Damien Knight, I think. It might have been Roxborough) saying he thought Dunkelzahn (or one of his direct corporate holdings) was responsible - either on purpose, or it simply escaped from their system. But he had no real proof of it. I could be mistaken, however.

As for its stats and abilities in the matrix, I think part of the reason it was so powerful back in the day was it was supposed to be effectively a matrix-level program and the old systems couldn't stop it any more than they could stop the Echo Mirage hackers from walking all over them. It was also supposed to be highly-adaptive (even if not actually self-aware like true AIs), and if it still existed would, presumably, have had little trouble keeping up with the SOTA. Especially since, thinking it destroyed, people haven't been actively hunting it for almost 40 years.
Psychotrope did alot of explaining on the 29 Crash as well. Alot of Echo Mirage stuff etc.

I seem to recall reading that the reason that virus was such a problem was that the corps-strike teams they sent after it kept getting knocked off because it was adapting too quickly/intelligently for them to keep up with.

Hmmmm....A sentient program that has the ability to adapt rapidly to its environment and threats? Sounds like a real biological virus...also sounds to me like it could be a purely AI ancestor to the Technomancer.

If you really wanted to stat this thing, I say, make it start weak, as in rating 1 or as merely a self-replicating sprite with a twist...the ability to thread complex forms like a TM. Once the thing gets loose into the wireless matrix, even though its half a century obsolete, I think a program that could thread itself would grow exponentially.
QUOTE (ruknabard)
I seem to recall reading that the reason that virus was such a problem was that the corps-strike teams they sent after it kept getting knocked off because it was adapting too quickly/intelligently for them to keep up with.

That and the fact that it could do what no other program of it's time could - induce lethal biofeedback (over VR). The first Crash virus was essentially the source code (in an abstract, inspiration sense) for Black IC and eventually Black Hammer.
Zhan Shi
The Big Blob (Roxborough, of Aztechnology fame) had a top team of programers create the virus, to sic it on Dunkelzhan, as revenge because Dunk bought out a company The Blob wanted for himself. But it metastised beyond their control, becoming the Crash Virus. The virus was never completely destroyed, however. A small part of it is still floating around the Matrix. So says DHT; whether it's considered SR canon, I don't know.
DHT also states that one of those programmers working for Roxborough was David Gavilan, who later headed up Echo Mirage and then became Damien Knight.

This was especially troubling to Alice Haeffner, becasue she was close friends with Gavilan, and it was the crash virus that killed her meat body.
As it has been said, I think it would be a novality, and little else. It would be like trying to infect a modern PC with a copy of the Michelangelo Virus. It just wont work anymore.

Michelangelo Virus (1991)
Zhan Shi
Off topic, I know, but a fun fact. According to DHT, Alice and Gavilan/Knight were having an affair behind Kyle's back.
I was pretty sure Gavilan and Haeffner knew eachother prior to Kyle entering the picture?
Zhan Shi
Could be. I'm not sure of their history. I should also say that this was not definitively stated in DHT, but was strongly implied.
Prime Mover
One of the great "first" conspiracies of early SR. It was always eluded too that The big D and Knight were not chummy but did know each other and even had friendly game of chess from time to time? Did Knight and the big D work together to create and then deal with the first crash virus or did one or the other have prior knowledge of what was to come? Was Knight or did Knight become a double agent while working for Roxborough?

Knight has obviously been choosen to be privy to knowledge the rest of the world doesnt have or has it before it's made too public. Bug City for example and Ares pre-actions there.

So is Knight a willing participant in the immortals schemes or is something even more sinister?
Zhan Shi
There is a piece of fiction up on either SR4 or ancient history. Synopsis: a "good merge" bug spirit sneaks into Knight's office, intent on killing him as revenge for Bug City and subsequent hunts. Knight is revealed as a Vessel for something much more powerful.
I'll have to look for that. As far as I know, Knight was the head hancho of echo Mirage ( cleaning up the mess he helped create ). His relationship to Alice and Kyle was VERY close. He is perhaps one of the most intelligent men on the planet. He and Dunkie did play many gamnes of chess to gether, and he even won on occasion. He and Dunkie worked together on the nano -buyout ( dunkie basically financed the deal ). Thier relatinship was one of respected rivals.

Knight is definatley on the Inside of alot of stuff. Being one of the smartest guys in the world will do that. By 2070 he has got to be in his 70s now, DHT pointed out he had used alot fo anti-aging tech/surgeery/treatments.

if i recall correctly, Knight was not revealed as a vessel for anything. the bug spirit that tried to assassinate Knight ended up meeting a mage who was pretending to be Knight--a mage who'd trained to be able to use his magic even in orbit. in other words, a initiate with a double digit grade.
Does anyone know the title of that story?
Info on where to look for it would also be much appreciated!
Zhan Shi
I can't remember the name. But I'm fairly certain I saw it on either ("Game Resources", maybe?) or Ancient History's place here on dumpshock.
Hunter and Prey, on Ancient History's website
Gossamer Threads was the name of the company that Big D bought out from the Blob. The Blob claimed that the virus wasn't from his labs but released from GT's servers. It's not clear if he was lying and/or delusional, but it is known that the 2029 vius broke out from near GT's servers. I believe that was all covered on the Dragon Heat Trilogy, which was prime Shadowrun dime novel material and as canon as Panther Cannons.

Amazon is a great place to pick them up, search by individual title as practically no one sells them as a set. Don't expect a Shadowrun based Dark Tower, the books retail for about $2.00 these days and if you've gotten this far you won't be disappointed.
Thanks, Fortune!
For some bizarre reason, that was the only one that I didn't check... indifferent.gif
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