I have a player that wants to fetish-limit force 1 spells and claims they are freebies, as in they don't cost spell points at character creation. This has my spider sense tingling, I swear there is a rule somewhere that says a spell cannot cost less then 1 spell point but I cant seem to find it. Anyone know if there is a rule and where to find it? Thanks in advance.

This rule has been debated, an option is to house rule that all spells must total at least 1 karma. Otherwise, you can assume that every mage can cast every spell as force 2 exclusive. (don't even need to buy a fetish)

No. Slap him. Fetishes and exclusivity just provides a virtual increase to the spell's Force rather than reducing the cost.

~J

I think you are right, but even if you aren't you are the gm. Lay down the law now. Tell him you think there is a rule, but even if there wasn't a moment ago there is one now.

When this question came up before, I emailed Rob about it:

I know this is just my house rule, but since the official answer is kind of weak, you may as well snag it.

All spells bought at chargen cost at least one spell point. If you really see your character having that force 2 exclusive Healthy Glow spell, drop the spell point on it and don't fret. If you're buying spells like that at character generation, you're not so tweaked out that the loss of a spell point is any great shakes.

After chargen, if you can get a spell's karma cost down to nothing via limitations and/or astral quests, good for you. It's a freebie. You still have to spend time and money learning the spell, and the spells you'll pick up that way will almost invariably be cantrippy, either by dint of inherent fluffiness or else by dint of low power and limited utility. The residual costs still prevent all but the most dedicated of munchkins from abusing this mechanism, though.

I limit it in my games by saying that if you put a limitation on a spell, that the limitation can not reduce the cost of the spell to 0.

Didn't the main book mention something that you choose whether or not a limitation reduces cost, or reduces Drain, when you took it? If so, you could just say that all limitations at character creation can be used only to reduce Drain, or something like that...

I've always allowed players to select "cantrips" at character creation for no Spell Points by taking a limitation on them. They're allowed up to one cantrip for every full spell they purchase above Force 3. Since most of these cantrips are spells like Healthy Glow, Fashion, Makeover, and Trid Entertainment -- all spells even I would choose as a regular Joe Schmoe if magic were real and worked like it does in Shadowrun -- they're mostly just there for flavor purposes.

Sure, Increased Reflexes and Oxygenate might make their way in there, but by and large, there's very few game breaking spells that are just as useful to a runner at low Force as they are at a higher Force.

And yes, I know the various different spells that can arguably be good at low Force, so no need to go on some quest to list them all as some of you normally do when a topic like this shows up. Every rule can be abused. You just have to trust in your players not to do so and to create a character based on a concept rather than a demonstration of how the rules are broken.

I was going to say 1 cantrip per Magic point sounds reasonable, but I think I like Doc's idea better....

Low level nutrition and fast would also be particularily useful for surviving in the wilderness... Increace reflexes (fetish limited) and oxygenate would be indespensible too. Aside from that there aren't many spells that would be important. Maybe if your GM let you make a create water spell based on the create food spell... Water is extremely useful almost anywhere.

I use a mimimum cost of 1. I figure if people want to be able to lift skirts from across the room or light cigarettes on the end of their nose, they can pay a measly 1 karma for the priviledge.

I wouldn't quite call 1 karma measly when talking about mages. Out of all SR 'classes', mages have the most karma sinks. Not only do they have to pay karma to improve their skills and attributes like everyone else, but there's also spells, initiation, focus bonding, magical groups, wards and spirits. When a samurai pays karma for another level of skill or attribute boost, that's theirs forever (barring injury or illness). Compare this to karma spent on focuses that are easily lost/destroyed, Wards that disappear after a few weeks, and spirits that will inevitably turn against them someday.

Street sams can always ask the Johnson to pony up some SOTA tech before a run, but when's the last time you heard a shaman ask for 6 karma so they could get a better Fireball?

Not a flame - just a different perspective .

Although this will be debated to no end, I just want to point out that since the book says you can spend spell points to buy spells, I think it's pretty obvious (by my interpretation of that) that if you don't spend any spell points, you don't get any spell. Regardless of reduction in karma for learning a spell, you have to 'spend' something to get a spell.

Sphynx

I would also like to point out that the idea of getting free spells= twink!

The reasoning (as a GM) is it's a whole lot easier to take nuyen then Karma. I mean *boom! The whole building explodes! There goes the damage deposit and you next 4 months of lifestyle!*

I mena, how do you realistically take away karma?

I tend to award plenty of cash, then allow Cash-for Karma if the PC's give me a good use of them. You know, specifically what Charity they give it to? Who do they talk to? What does the charity do? THis also takes some pressure of the GM as they PC's work on it, gets the players more involved in the game worlds, and gives plenty of plot hooks.

I would personally allow any free spell. You spend some time and effort on learning the spell (Which, in my perspective, is what Karma represents), as well as money for the teacher and any items you need.

Sure, mages are Karma sinkholes, but Deckers and Riggers are nuyen sinkholes. Does this mean we should allow them to reduce SOTA costs for free? I think not.

And, yes, this is what several people would argue, since you've gone on to how big-time Karma sinkers mages are.

Well, SOTA does balance it out a bit; most people who can convert Karma into money would do so quickly, in order to make ends meet for that wiz gear they carry. But keep in mind that there is some differences. For example, when a rigger wants to change something on his/her drone, they just spend money and time, and by and by they do it. If a mage wants to increase the abilities of a spell, they have to fully relearn a whole new spell, and it takes Karma, money and time.

Never think that mages don't spend money, too. Perhaps not as much as more technologically-inclined people, but every time they want a new focus, a new and/or better spell, a new spirit to conjure up, etc., they have to spend money for it, in addition to any other considerations.

All I'm saying is most GMs think that each character's needs are the same, and don't consider that every PC is an individual, and has individual needs for advancement and whatnot. I try to make sure that all of my PCs keep up with each other in their various ways, so that they all feel they have accomplished something after a while.

A while back my players discovered the rule on pages 94-95 of MiTS about reducing the karma cost for learning spells. This got so abused and stalled game time because all the players wanted them. I had to make a house rule that you could only reduce the karma cost by half.

I let them do metaplane quests for spells. No worries. The only caveat is that they have to be fully roleplayed ones, not dice roll ones which we occasionally allow where Real Life ™ time is short.

This means that a: the quests are generally harder, as the player has to roleplay and over come things beyond a single test, and they have to use their head as well as re-rolls to get through all the Places, and b: they do less of them because there's only so many days in the week!

A rating 5 quest to learn a F6 spell is no picnic beleive me! When they want to do low force ones then they're pretty easy, but then they have a low force spell or pay more Good Karma. you often find them spending good karma on the quest as well! by the end of it its debatable how much they've really saved in order to reduce the karma of the spell and get some extra dice for the test - which they can STILL fail and not manage to then learn the spell.

I think that in terms of character development, the fact that Awakened eat more karma then everyone else is just part of the drawback of that character type, just as being a rigger or decker makes you a financial liability. Street sams, once kitted out, don't usually require that much cash or karma to maintain except medical bills but they can't do as much unless they learn Computer skill and get a datajack and a cyberdeck. This is in fact what I've found a lot of sammies do when they run out of things to spend karma or cash on - they learn new skills and take on other duties for the team, even if only to be used as a backup.

I don't think anything needs to be tweaked for the different 'types' of characters - the beauty of shadowrun is that there are no character classes - you can, if you want, play a rigger/decker/street sam/mage, its just got lots of drawbacks until you're sufficiently advanced to overcome them (never mind how much THAT little combination goes through karma!). If mages want more karma, they'll have to try that little bit harder during the runs and try to get as many points as they can from roleplaying, driving the plot forward, and so on. This has a knock on effect on the other players who start to see the Awakened character getting more karma at the end of a run and they start doing the same. Win win situation if you ask me!