Are there any canon civilian thunderbirds/panzers? If not, and you've come up with some, please share with the rest of us.

I'd also like to hear from any game writers if there any reasons for the apparent complete lack of civilian t-birds. It seems to me that if there is a class of vehicle used only by the military, using it for smuggling as is often mentioned would be a rather bad, if not suicidal, idea. Any comments?

well ive often thought that t-birds can be equated to helicopters of today.... usualy in military/company hands.

I've liked the idea of civilian AirLimos and the like. I like the idea of a crowded sky in a cyber-punk game: VTs, Rotorcraft, and BLIMPS! Any flying vehicle'd cost more than a grounder, of course, but that's why they're high-status.

The honor of being the executive air taxi seems to fall to the tilt wing aircraft like the Ares TR-55 and the F-B Commuter and rotor wing craft like the Hughes Airstar. The tilt wings being reasonably priced (300-400k), they're probably very common.

Thunderbirds have higher maintenance and operating costs than more conventional helicopters and tilt-rotors, something that would make them less than desirable in the civilian transport market. Their only real advantage is speed, which, as proved by the Concorde, isn't enough to make them more than a novelty for the very rich. In one of the previous T-bird discussions on this board there was a suggestion that civilian T-birds, if any, would fall into the realm of long distance, high speed racing. A kind of a 1000 kph rally race.

I once created stats for an ex-military T-bird that had been sold on the civillian market, similar to how old MiGs and other East Bloc jets are sometimes sold to the civillian market in the present day. It was a bit slower and less manueverable than the current ones in Rigger 3 (obsolete model) and had its milspec sensors and weapons removed, but it was still armored and could be had legally for the "collectors and airshow market". My primary motivation was that I could then turn around and make stats for what happened when one of those "collectors" turned out to be a smuggler, and requipped it with sensors, weapons, and similar gear from the shadows.

I'll see if I can dig out the stats and post them.

You can start a character off with a LAV if you set it up right. You simply buy a nice LAV with decent handling, speed, accel, lots of extra cf, max out load. Then buy, but don't install the other niceties. If you or someone on the team is doing the labor it makes it cheaper. On the down side you need to either limit what you buy or buy it with the "used" modifier or hope the GM isn't like me.

There probably isn't a real use for LAV in a truly civilian market, but this is Shadowrun. Being faster, tougher, and one of the few with your skills makes you marketable. Failing the legit life you can also opt to try the T-Birds routes (granted the above LAV wouldn't work too well for that).

been done! cept you need a mr. fusion to power it!

everyone should know this one

You can also use them for a flight pack or jump jet on armor too. Provided your load rating is high enough.

Eh. Why not. Gives me something to do on my day off. I've turned walker drones into one of the Mini tanks from Ghost in the Shell the Manga, and even managed the tank from the Movie. A 'Hover car' (albeit a small one) shouldn't be too hard.

I just have to fidget with it a bit. I'll post stats and info tomorrow in a new line, Kanada Ten.

As far as Thunderbirds, I must agree with Laughlyn that outside of the military and smuggling markets, other things can simply do exactly what they do cheaper and more reliably. There just is no market for a civilian T-Bird.

Nice one. I'm sure there's a market for LAV limo out there somewhere.