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Riley37
Here's a variant which I haven't playtested, written with the intent of breaking up the "package deal" that all spellcasters are conjurors and vice versa. PCs don't have to get good skills in both Groups, but since one can, most do.

- eliminate the Magician and Mystic Adept qualities
- add the following Adept powers:
Astral Projection (pre-requisite: Astral Perception)
Spellcasting: you may take the Spellcasting skills and get 1 point of Magic for casting dice pool; for each additional rank, you have +1 Magic for your spellcasting dice pool.
Conjuring: you may take the Conjuring skills and get 1 point of Magic for conjuring dice pools; for each additional rank, you have +1 Magic for your conjuring dice pools.

This house rule does not support an implementation in which a character at any Magic value can buy just the new three powers and work out to the same abilities as a "standard" mage, since Magic 1 cannot buy Astral Perception plus the new powers. If Astral Projection costs .5, Spellcasting costs 1 plus .25 per level, and Conjuring costs 1 plus .25 per level, then a Magic 5 adept could have Astral Perception, Astral Projection, Spellcasting at Magic 4, and Conjuring at Magic 4. If they specialize in either Spellcasting or Conjuring, or don' t take Astral Projection (thus having the same option paths as a Mystic Adept), then they can get a lot more dice in one or the other.
There's an argument for dropping the price of Astral Perception in this system to .5
Lagomorph
hm, I actually kind of like this. Good idea, unifying the base of adepts, summoners and magicians based on paying points like adepts do.
Buster
I really like this system! I also like the idea of reducing the cost of Astral Perception and Astral Projection to 0.5 power points because those powers don't really give an adept a lot by themselves. Astral Perception and Astral Projection costing 0.5 power points each and 1 Magic in Sorcery or Conjuring costing 1 power point and 0.25 power points each additional Magic point would be perfect because a straight Magic 5 astral projecting mage would have Magic 5 in Sorcery and Conjuring just as it is in the game now.

I love this system because it's simple and gives you ultimate flexibility for creating all possible character concepts that aren't allowed in the current rules. For example:
  • You could be a charming Conjurer with all the social skill adept enhancements but no Sorcery or Astral Perception, or
  • You could be an astral adept that has Astral Perception + Astral Projection and lots of kungfu adept abilities and no Sorcery or Conjuring skills, or
  • You could be a straight mage who is just one less Magic point in Conjuring so he can have Eidetic Memory and Multitasking, or
  • Any other combination you can imagine.
I would change the Arcana skill to use Logic instead of Magic and make it a Technical skill instead of a Magical skill so mundanes can use it too, but how would Enchanting be handled? It seems like it would be giving up a lot to give up Sorcery or Conjuring to gain Enchanting. Maybe Enchanting should cost only 0.25 power points each rating (instead of 1 pp + 0.25pp)?
venenum
My take was that adepts could already enchant stuff, or so the rules lead me to believe. So i dont think it should cost anything.
Buster
True, but under this altrule, Enchanting wouldn't have any Magic attribute to add to the enchanting test. I guess the thing would be to say that the new Magical Adept quality automatically gives you full Magic points for Enchanting for free.
Fortune
QUOTE (Buster)
I would change the Arcana skill to use Logic instead of Magic ...

Arcana is already linked to Logic, not Magic.
Buster
I know, it should be a Technical skill instead of a Magical skill so mundanes can use it too.
Fortune
Mundanes can have Magical Skills as Knowledge Skills. As such, they could quite conceivably utilize Arcana to design Spell or Ally formulae.
Buster
Then Arcana should just be a Knowledge skill instead of a Magical skill.
Fortune
QUOTE (Buster @ Oct 4 2007, 10:56 AM)
Then Arcana should just be a Knowledge skill instead of a Magical skill.

It also has purely magical uses, such as when using it with Divination. I was technically incorrect about the Arcana Skill, in that it differs from the other Magical Skills when learned by mundanes and is not considered a Knowledge Skill.

QUOTE (Street Magic pg. 24)
Arcana (Logic )
Arcana governs the practical aspects of a tradition’s magical theory and the application of magic in creative new ways. Characters use the Arcana skill to develop new spell and magical foci formulae from scratch (rather than learning someone else’s tricks) and to produce all types of spirit formulae. Initiates may also use Arcana to decipher the symbolism and meaning of visions induced by the Divining metamagic (see p. 56). Note that mundanes as well as Awakened can learn Arcana. Though they can’t put their formulations into practice, non-magical characters can design formulae just as well as magicians—in fact, some of the best spell formulators in the Sixth World are mundanes or burnouts with no magical ability.
Default: No
Skill Group: None
Specializations: Spell Design (by spell category), Focus Design (by focus type), Ally Spirit Formula, Free Spirit Formula
Buster
I absolutely love Riley37's altrule. Check out these character concepts I whipped out using this system. All of these character concepts were created using Sorcery and Conjuring (Magic) rating that cost 1 pp for the first rating point and 0.25 pp for each additional rating point. E.g. Sorcery 1 costs 1 pp, Sorcery 2 costs 1.25 pp, and Sorcery 5 costs 2 pp.

These are not full builds, they only show the Sorcery or Conjuring magic rating, not the Sorcery or Conjuring skill ratings: Skill points in Sorcery Group or Conjuring Group (or individual Sorcery or Conjuring skills or specialties) would cost BP or karma as usual.

Note that none of these classic archetypes are possible using the current RAW.

Character concepts (all with Magic attribute rating 5):
• A straight full magician would have Astral Perception + Astral Projection (1 pp), Sorcery 5 (2 pp), and Conjuring 5 (2 pp) just as it is in the RAW now. Increasing his Magic to 6 could raise his powers to Sorcery 6, Conjuring 6, and give him 0.5 power points of adept powers such as Commanding Voice (an archmage should have some extra presence).
• A charming Conjurer could have Conjuring 5 (2 pp), Kinesics 4 (2 pp), Improved Ability (some social skill) 2 (0.5 pp), and Commanding Voice (0.5 pp) (but no Sorcery or Astral Perception).
• An astral adept that has Astral Perception + Astral Projection (1 pp) and lots of astral kungfu adept abilities such as Killing Hands (0.5 pp), Critical Strike 4 (2 pp), Pain Resistance 1 (0.5 pp), and Mystic Armor 4 (2 pp) (but no Sorcery or Conjuring).
• A detective mage with Astral Perception + Astral Projection (1 pp), Sorcery 5 (2 pp), Eidetic Memory (0.5 pp), Multitasking (0.5 pp), Analytics 1 (0.25 pp), Improved Perception 1 (0.25 pp), and Improved Sense (smell, thermo) (0.5 pp) (but no Conjuring).
• A shinobi ninja with Sorcery 5 (2 pp), Astral Perception (for spotting wards and spirits) (0.5 pp), Cloak 4 (1 pp), Traceless Walking (1 pp), and Enhanced Perception (thermo) (0.5 pp) (but no Conjuring).
• A rocker mage with Sorcery 5 (2 pp), Voice Control (0.5 pp), Commanding Voice (0.5 pp), and Kinesics 4 (2 pp) (but no Conjuring or Astral Perception).


Is that cool or what?
Crusher Bob
One possible problem is that high magic full mages start stacking up the adept powers:

Magic 8, astral projection (1), sorcery 8 (2.75), conjuring 8(2.75) leave 1.5 power points for adept powers.

If you get to magic 10, astral projection (1), sorcery 10 (3.25), conjuring 10 (3.25) leaves you 2.5 PP.

To use this system, the basic cost of being magically active should be 15 or 20 BP, but this means that 'regular' adepts are now paying 10-15 BP more for the exact same stuff. Are adepts currently underpriced by around 10 BP?

On the other hand, mystic adepts types stops being such a gimpy choice, since you can dump conjuring or sorcery for some adept powers.
kzt
I don't think adepts are [underpriced]. They were in 3rd, but having to buy magic tends to fix that.

If the problems are only in character growth there are assorted ways to fix it that allow the system to be used at generation. The easiest (and most arbitrary) is the GM saying "No!".

Making people buy metamagic with power points (which makes them available at the start) is another.
Garrowolf
Wow! I came up with about the same rule about a year or so ago and everybody hated it.
Glyph
I think Crusher Bob pointed out the main flaw, though... at Magic of 6 or higher, a pure mage built on this system becomes a mage with bonus adept powers.

Not sure how you could fix this without messing up mages at the lower levels of Magic, either. Maybe make spellcasting and conjuring a straight 0.5 cost per level.

Only you would always have less levels in both than your Magic, if you bought astral perception and projection.

Maybe you could make the base cost 5 BP, and make astral perception and projection additional 5 BP qualities. That would also take care of the other problem, of pure adepts being overpriced in the new system.

That might almost seem like going back to the old adept/mystic adept/mage qualities, but you would still have all of those extra possibilities like an adept with a weapon focus who can astrally project, a conjuror/social adept, and so on.
BishopMcQ
QUOTE (Buster)
  • You could be a charming Conjurer with all the social skill adept enhancements but no Sorcery or Astral Perception, or
  • You could be an astral adept that has Astral Perception + Astral Projection and lots of kungfu adept abilities and no Sorcery or Conjuring skills, or
  • You could be a straight mage who is just one less Magic point in Conjuring so he can have Eidetic Memory and Multitasking, or
  • Any other combination you can imagine.

With the exception of Astral Projection, all of these can be done within the rules as they stand now.

Mystic Adept, Aspected Conjurer
Mystic Adept, Astral Aspected
Mystic Adept

I don't have a problem with an Adept who can astrally project. Have them pay the Mystic Adept (15 BP) with Astral Aspect (-10 BP) and purchase Astral Project (1 PP) with a pre-req of Astral Perception (1 PP). Now you have a small house rule to add in an additional power. If you want astral projection to be more rarified, make it a metamagic technique that an adept can learn.
Crusher Bob
This might work:

Magically Active (5BP)
Gain 1 points of magic

Astral Perception (5 BP) (requires magically active)

Astral Projection (5 BP, requires astral perception)

Sorcery: .5 PP per level
Conjuring: .5 PP per level

This makes full mages and normal adepts cost the same BP as the standard rules. Mystic adepts cost 5 BP less or get astral perception.
Buster
Dammit CrusherBob, I was just going to post that exact same system! biggrin.gif

I like this system because it gives the same flexibility plus you dont get the power creep at high magic. Plus you can buy Astral Perception and Astral Projection for only 10 karma each after chargen.
Dender
QUOTE (Glyph)
I think Crusher Bob pointed out the main flaw, though... at Magic of 6 or higher, a pure mage built on this system becomes a mage with bonus adept powers.

Not sure how you could fix this without messing up mages at the lower levels of Magic, either. Maybe make spellcasting and conjuring a straight 0.5 cost per level.

Only you would always have less levels in both than your Magic, if you bought astral perception and projection.

Maybe you could make the base cost 5 BP, and make astral perception and projection additional 5 BP qualities. That would also take care of the other problem, of pure adepts being overpriced in the new system.

That might almost seem like going back to the old adept/mystic adept/mage qualities, but you would still have all of those extra possibilities like an adept with a weapon focus who can astrally project, a conjuror/social adept, and so on.

Its a rather easy fix. Double the cost per level above essence. Gives you a hard cap of initiation level +essence, and a soft cap of straight essence.

by the way, IMO, adepts are underpriced. Magicians are priced right currently, because they get astral perception and projection essentially for that extra 5 BP. changing it to "Awakened: 10bp" for this altrule would seem fair to me.
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