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Tiralee
Hola -

Was wondering if any posters out there had run across a crow-shapeshifter, or had played around with the stats to home-brew one?

I was thinking:

-Shapeshifter Racial Modifier-

Crow:
Mental: +1 Int, +1 Will
Human: +2 Quickness
Animal: +1 Quickness, +2 Reaction, +1D6 Initiative.


This is a semi-brew between The Fox and Eagle types.

Comments and criticism are well welcomed.

L.
Kagetenshi
I'd say maybe +1 Int -1 Wil -1 Str, -2 or -3 Str in animal form in addition to what you have there (replacing where appropriate).

~J
tisoz
I'd drop human quickness to +1, reduce animal reaction to +1, and animal bonus stats are only when flying.
Ol' Scratch
I created one some time ago. Lemme see if I can find my notebook and show you what I cooked up. It was based on the Eagle Shapeshifter stats and my own interpretation of the Crow totem (which is similar to the one in this link).

Crow
Mental: +1 Intelligence, +1 Willpower
Human: +1 Quickness, x4 Running Multiplier
Animal: +2 Quickness, +2 Reaction, +2D6 Initiative (flying only), x5 Multiplier (flying only).

I believe it's the same number of modifiers as the Eagle shapeshifter, with the lack of Power and Damage Level bonuses compensated for by the Initiative bonus. Crows do tend to be hard to catch, stubborn, and intelligent... so it made sense to me.
Kagetenshi
They also tend to be easily distractable with shinies.

~J
Ol' Scratch
And your point?
Glyph
No shapeshifter type has a higher bonus for human form than it does for animal form, so I would switch the Quickness modifiers around (+1 in human form and +2 in animal form). Also, every 'shifter type gets +1 Reaction, across the board - I see no reason that a crow 'shifter should be an exception and get +2.

Like the eagle 'shifter, you should get a x4 running multiplier in human form and a x5 flying multiplier when flying. Also like the eagle, you should only get the +1d6 initiative when flying.

Unlike eagle, I wouldn't give you any Strength, Power, or Damage Level bonuses in animal form. With a crow, you're lucky to not have penalties.

Overall, I think that would be both balanced and consistent with how other 'shifters are handled. You have slightly more advantageous mental stat bonuses than an eagle 'shifter, but that is balanced by being weaker physically. And a crow also has advantages over an eagle in that they blend in the city (and every place else) much more easily, and can fit into smaller places.

Dr. Funk's version also looks good, and very similar to mine, although I wouldn't give a +2 Reaction to any 'shifter. Not because it's that unbalancing, but just to stay consistent with the rest of them.
Kagetenshi
I was just explaining my subtracting Willpower rather than adding it like more or less everyone else.

~J
Ol' Scratch
Ugh, making me pull out my book so I can try to remember the rationale behind the decisions I made. Honestly, man...

QUOTE
Also, every 'shifter type gets +1 Reaction, across the board - I see no reason that a crow 'shifter should be an exception and get +2.

Dr. Funk's version also looks good, and very similar to mine, although I wouldn't give a +2 Reaction to any 'shifter.  Not because it's that unbalancing, but just to stay consistent with the rest of them.


The reason I personally did that was to help make up for the lack of a Power and Damage Level. The only other two Shapeshifter types that don't gain some kind of damage bonus is the Fox and the Seal. The Fox is compensated for this with an impressive amount of Mental Attribute modifiers (+4 total, to everyone else's +1 or +2 if they're lucky) while the Seal makes up for it with numerous Physical Attribute bonuses in animal form (+2 Body, +1 Quickness, +1 Strength).

So where's the Crow's compensation? There really isn't one. Compared to the slow-moving Eagle, they're quite agile and can take off into flight quickly. To me, that suggestions a Reaction and Initiative bonus, which is what would make the Crow Shapeshifter an attractive choice. With no noticable Physical boost save for Quickness and only +2 to Mental Attributes, they need something to stand up to the others.

Using your last argument, the Fox should be completely changed because its not consistant with the other Shapeshifters as they have more than twice the Mental Attribute bonuses of other 'shifters.

So yeah, that's basically why I did what I did I think. smile.gif Mostly because that was the only plausible thing I felt I could do at the time to keep the Crow Shapeshifter up to par with the other 'shifters. At most, I'd lower their Quickness to only +1 in Animal form, if only to keep them on par with the Fox of whom they should be about equal in that regard.
snowRaven
My Raven shifter has the following:

Mental: +1 Charisma, +1 Intelligence, +1 Willpower
Human Form: +1 Quickness, x4 Running Multiplier
Animal: +3 Quickness, +1 Reaction, +2D6 Initiative(when Flying only)
x5 Flying Multiplier

While I am not saying that Ravens fly faster than Eagles, they are more maneuverable in the air (they are virtually flight-acrobats)

You could use the same stats for a Crow, since they are very similar birds (size difference aside)
Tiralee
Hi again -

Thanks for the response, but I'm inclined to grant the increases quickness (Animal form) simply because of size and "Get up and go".

Eagles aren't really that fast - I'm an inhabitant of Oz here - but they soar and swoop (Showing excellent vision and a basic understanding of impact mechanics) rather than jump about, duck and weave.

Also can't figure a Crow having more Charisma - but they are intelligent and can be remarkably...annoying with it.

Will? Maybe, but I'd probabily go with the speed increase, along with the reaction, than having the stubborn bird keep banging its head against the window.

Anyhoo - there are a bunch of good ideas here, I'll throw them together and see how it pans out.

Thank you all for the input.

L.

Zazen
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Using your last argument, the Fox should be completely changed because its not consistant with the other Shapeshifters as they have more than twice the Mental Attribute bonuses of other 'shifters.

His argument was to conform new shifters to patterns seen in the existing ones, though.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Zazen)
His argument was to conform new shifters to patterns seen in the existing ones, though.

And mine is that most of the others have one or more characteristics that breaks the pattern found in other 'shifters. That's what makes each one unique and an interesting choice. If you dull it all down and only follow patterns, you wind up with an uninteresting end product that's actually not very well balanced with the others (since they all have a unique characteristic and this one doesn't).
Zazen
I was just pointing out that you were not in fact using his argument. When people say "using your argument" and then say something that doesn't follow, I feel compelled to mention it.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Zazen @ Nov 22 2003, 12:35 PM)
I was just pointing out that you were not in fact using his argument. When people say "using your argument" and then say something that doesn't follow, I feel compelled to mention it.

Whatever. I'm not in the mood to further rationalize a valid comment to a troll like you, especially one who didn't even bother to offer anything of value to the discussion.
moosegod
Hey! Hey, hey, hey! extinguish.gif
Zazen
Sorry for personally attacking you again. And please disregard those comments I made about your ethnic heritage, mother, and penis length. I was being rash.
snowRaven
Tiralee (and anyone else interested) - just thought I'd explain some of my choices for the Raven 'shifter: upsidedown.gif

+3 Quickness, x5 Flying multiplier - I gave higher quickness to the raven because it is more agile, and a better flyer than Eagle. The same goes for Crow, but not quite to the same extent.

+1 Charisma - Ravens are intelligent birds, and while they might not be all that beautiful or noble, they have a strong presence and a strong mythological reputation. Same thing holds true for Crows, and therefore I think a charisma plus is approperiate. Remember that Wolf and Leopard have increased charisma too.

+1 Intelligence - Ravens are intelligent, clever and a classical 'trickster' type.

+1 Willpower - while not 'stupid' enough to bang their head against the glass over and over, Ravens (and Crows) are persistent, and their position in the various mythologies in the world suggests a strong sense of self and a strong will.

I know I am basing some choices partly on myth and not on reality, but I think people's perceptions of ravens (and crows) should factor into the choices. I also think that Raven/Crow shifters should get the mental benefits since they do not have very strong physical attributes.

The only thing I am wary about is the 3D6 Initiative when flying - Ravens and Crows aren't really predators, and it is the predatorial 'shifters (Tiger, Leopard) that get the 3 dice - however, the Pugot (african Hog... grinbig.gif) shapeshifter from Cyberpirates get 3 initiative dice, so...
Glyph
Snowraven, I think your bias towards a 'shifter type that you see as "cool" is showing. That version is just a bit too loaded with advantages. On mental Attributes, it is only one point below the Fox 'shifter, which is compensated by having low physical bonuses (your Raven, by contrast, has a net Quickness bonus 3 points greater than the Fox does). I think most GMs would knock a few things down on that version if a player presented it to them. And if you are the GM, don't be surprised if Ravens become the most popular choice for 'shifters. smile.gif


Now, on the Reaction thing: I don't mind 'shifter types that vary greatly from the ones in the book. If someone wanted to play a spiny anteater 'shifter, it would probably have a lot of unique characteristics. But every 'shifter, from the lumbering bear to the nimble fox, has a +1 Reaction, right across the board. So to me, someone wanting to play a 'shifter with +2 Reaction is not in the same category as wanting this or that Attribute or Initiative bonus - it is more like wanting to play a 'shifter who starts out with 9 Essense instead of 8 Essense (which, by the way, would not even make a difference in the game, since Magic still starts out at 6 and 'shifters can't get cyberware. But I would still disallow it simply for the sake of consistency, and because I would see no reason for it). That's what I meant when I talked about bringing the crow in line with the other 'shifters. And it has more to do with keeping an internal consistency than with game balance (yes, Reaction is used for critter combat, making it a very important Attribute for a 'shifter, but crows are not really that combat-oriented, and most crow 'shifter PCs are likelier to be sorcerers or mages).
snowRaven
Glyph, scanning over my list of 'shifters to compare them as you just did I noticed that my 'final' Raven apparently doesn't have a +1 to Willpower. I was pasting the previous from my notebook, and apparently I had come to a similar 'unbalanced' decision.

That aside, if you compare the Raven I posted here with the Eagle, you'll notice these differences:

Eagle has 2 points higher Strength in animal form, as well as a +1 to Power and Damage Level.

Raven has 1 point higher Quickness in animal form, and +1 Willpower. (and possibly one extra Initiative dice, but as I said I am wary of that - and that is also not in my 'final' version)

In my opinion this makes these two fairly balanced against each other - Raven is a scout/spellslinger, while the Eagle is more combat/spellslinger oriented.

If you compare 'shifter total attribute bonuses, counting mental attributies twice, you end up with a figure in the range of 8 to 12. Incidentally, those with the highest total (Bear 12, Tiger 11) are also the ones with most 'extra' bonuses (Dermal armor, Reach, increased Damage Level, higher movement multiplier)

(Edit: I am comparing with eagle because it is the only official bird shapeshifter, and I wanted to create a city version - hence Raven. Believe it or not, I didn't choose Raven solely 'cause I find Ravens cool, but because they are the biggest bird that would blend in in an urban enviroment (though Ravens generally stay away from cities))
Shanshu Freeman
I'm confused. Does this query relate to furries at all?
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